2 x 20's or 3 x 15's?

wardieboy

Just wondering which regular mid-week workout will provide the best returns over the winter - 2 x 20's or 3 x 15's?

3 x 15's will give an extra 5 minutes in the sweet spot per session but won't give the body as much exposure to longer intervals at the given effort rate. I obviously could mix between the two but was wondering if there was an overriding benefit of the 2 x 20?

Cheers all.

Herbsman

Neither - give 7x((6x8.75)/8)^23 a go

Herbsman

Serious reply: your question is unanswerable.

Even if it was, people would need to know if you were planning to do the 15's at the same intensity as the 20's or not

The only way the question could be answered really is to get 50 athletes to do only 3 x 15 every time they ride, n times per week, and another 50 athletes to only do 2 x 20 every time they ride, n times per week and measure the average increase in FTP for each group.

Even then there would be so many variables, sleep, diet, stress etc it would be almost impossible to say.

bahzob

Herbsman above is right. Best is pick whatever routine allows you to spend most time at target intensity and ring the changes to get some variety. Chris Boardman had a threshold routine of 15>12>10>8 mins with 5 min rpi and it didnt do him any harm.

But whatever you pick you are either wrong or confused if you do these efforts at "sweetspot.

Sweetspot is less than threshold. Any effort of 20 mins or less should be done at least at threshold. If you cant manage 2x20/3x15/whatever at threshold either you are ill or your FTP estimate is wrong.

GiantMike

I do 2x20 at FTP. Anything less is a bit 'easy'. I'd do 3x15 at FTP too.

wardieboy

Thanks for the comments, Of course I can manage the workout at FTP, but how many times per week without getting fatigued that I don't know! How much rest do you take between training sessions if you are performing the workouts at FTP? I was planning 95% of FTP three times a week with a long ride at weekends.

Tom Dean

it depends

bigpikle

I prefer 2x20 as its pretty much the same time at your target zone and I also like the way it makes me work harder for longer in each set. I also prefer to just have 2 sets to do from a metal standpoint and its more time efficient to just have a single 4-5 min rest interval. YMMV. If I have a little longer I'll do 3x20 instead

Setarkos

1. 3x15' or 2x20' @100% doesn't make a difference. Pick whatever you feel more comfortable with (longer fewer intervals or shorter but more)

2. What are you training for? Are you racing in winter? When do you want to peak?
If you have a normal season plan and do your first races/events in March/April it is a bit early for weekly threshold work imo.
A great winter workout (complementing base miles) is
45' 65-70%
2/3x15' 88-91% RI 5'
40' 80%
45-60' 60-65%
Have some protein before app. 0.5g per kg bodyweight.
If you're racing this winter then race on the weakend and threshold once a week is fine.

3. 2x20' and 3x15' are really more useful at 100%FTP. If you want to do SST, try 3x20' or 4x15' with RI 5' at 70-75%.

Remember that the 5min rest intervals are mainly psychologically anyway and that a specific workout (such as L4) should be done to the point of exhaustion.

Setarkos

Bigpikle wrote:

If I have a little longer I'll do 3x20 instead

I would try to go a little bit harder (105% FTP) in your 2x20 if you can do 3x20 that easily. Or maybe your FTP is slightly underestimated. 3x20 is usually only done in an intense L4 block with considerable preparation but then they are indeed very rewarding

Herbsman

Setarkos wrote:

...a specific workout (such as L4) should be done to the point of exhaustion.

Really? I read (admittedly only in 3 different books) that they should be done until your power drops by a certain percentage, and not a massive percentage either. I wouldn't describe that as exhaustion?

GiantMike

Setarkos wrote:

Bigpikle wrote:

If I have a little longer I'll do 3x20 instead

I would try to go a little bit harder (105% FTP) in your 2x20 if you can do 3x20 that easily. Or maybe your FTP is slightly underestimated. 3x20 is usually only done in an intense L4 block with considerable preparation but then they are indeed very rewarding

It also varies from day to day. Last week I did a 2x20 at 100% and 102% FTP and felt fine afterwards. Yesterday I did a 2x20 at 100% and 100% and struggled on the second one. I am planning a 3x20xFTP but I think it will be proper horrible!

markos1963

I always do my 2x20s at 105%. I can't see the benefit of doing it at 100% after all you are doing it looking for an improvement in FTP. 100% is just replicating what you are doing in a 10mTT anyway rather than pushing it further.

ut_och_cykla

In theory - 2 x 20 should be closer to threshold than 3 x 15 which to give the same training dose would have to be done a tiny bit harder and would thereby create more lactate? (and 1 x 40 slightly easier) I like 2 x 20 as I can fit it nicely into an hour. The key to any interval work like this is to get the effort right to make progress and still be doable regulalry - twice a week - with each interval being the same - not a mad 15 mins followed by slightly less adn even less for the last one!

Setarkos

Herbsman wrote:

Setarkos wrote:

...a specific workout (such as L4) should be done to the point of exhaustion.

Really? I read (admittedly only in 3 different books) that they should be done until your power drops by a certain percentage, and not a massive percentage either. I wouldn't describe that as exhaustion?

Yes, you're absolutely right. Maybe "exhaustion" is the wrong word, I meant exhaustion of your ability for that specific training zone. Don't know how to put that more elegantly.

GiantMike

markos1963 wrote:

I always do my 2x20s at 105%. I can't see the benefit of doing it at 100% after all you are doing it looking for an improvement in FTP. 100% is just replicating what you are doing in a 10mTT anyway rather than pushing it further.

I don't understand this. My FTP is 306W based on a near-fatal 20 min power test of 322W. At the end of the test I couldn't get off the bike. If I did 2x20 at 105% FTP, by definition I wouldnt be able to complete the second one.

If I could complete the second one at 105% FTP, wouldn't this just mean my FTP was wrong?

Hurricane151

markos1963 wrote:

I always do my 2x20s at 105%. I can't see the benefit of doing it at 100% after all you are doing it looking for an improvement in FTP. 100% is just replicating what you are doing in a 10mTT anyway rather than pushing it further.

If you do it at 100% you are replicating an hour or 25m TT aren't you?. I thought your FTP was based on the average power that can be sustained for 60mins.

I did my first 20min interval session yesterday. I did 3 x 20mins at circa 95% and I have to say this was pretty easy. Don't get me wrong I felt it but i never thought i wasn't going to complete the three sets.

I have been wondering if this means my FTP is wrong also, but I think I'll be trying the next sets I do at 100% or above.

I also am a little confused as i did my FTP 20min test at basically 105% of my FTP so i'm not sure I could complete 2 sets of that as I was spent at the end of my test 20.

markos1963

GiantMike wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

I always do my 2x20s at 105%. I can't see the benefit of doing it at 100% after all you are doing it looking for an improvement in FTP. 100% is just replicating what you are doing in a 10mTT anyway rather than pushing it further.

I don't understand this. My FTP is 306W based on a near-fatal 20 min power test of 322W. At the end of the test I couldn't get off the bike. If I did 2x20 at 105% FTP, by definition I wouldnt be able to complete the second one.

If I could complete the second one at 105% FTP, wouldn't this just mean my FTP was wrong?

Whoops :oops: Think I'm getting myself in a mix. I do 2x20 training for 10mTT so I base it on 105% of my average HR for the season over this distance. I made the assumption this was my FTP figure.

Herbsman

Setarkos wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

Setarkos wrote:

...a specific workout (such as L4) should be done to the point of exhaustion.

Really? I read (admittedly only in 3 different books) that they should be done until your power drops by a certain percentage, and not a massive percentage either. I wouldn't describe that as exhaustion?

Yes, you're absolutely right. Maybe "exhaustion" is the wrong word, I meant exhaustion of your ability for that specific training zone. Don't know how to put that more elegantly.

Ah. When I think of exhaustion, I think of such time as when I'm literally too f**ked to pedal anymore

amaferanga

I find 3x15 an easier session that 2x20. I think that's just a mental thing - after 10 minutes I can tell myself I'm nearly there. As for the power, on the turbo I find 20 mins at FTP pretty hard and 2x20 really hard. If I drop the power to ~90-92% FTP though I can do 2x30 or 3x20 or 40-20-10 or similar without too much trouble. If I do drop the power a bit like this then I can do 2, 3 or even 4 SST/L4 sessions in the evening through the week. If I try back to back sessions of 2x20 at FTP I generally fail to hit the numbers on the second day.

On the road from spring onwards I'll do 4 or 5 x 12min (12min is the longest nearby hill that's good for repeats) at several Watts above FTP. I find it so much easier to hit my FTP and higher on the road compared to the turbo.

Alex_Simmons/RST

markos1963 wrote:

I always do my 2x20s at 105%.

With what regularity/frequency are you doing this? and with what rest period?

If it's regular and weekly or twice weekly, then I suspect your FTP is set a little low.

It's very difficult to consistently perform such intervals > FTP.

danowat

95% FTP easy?, I must be a bit of a pussy then, because I certainly don't find 95% FTP "easy", I find 3 x 15 in Z4 pretty tough TBH.

markos1963

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

I always do my 2x20s at 105%.

With what regularity/frequency are you doing this? and with what rest period?

If it's regular and weekly or twice weekly, then I suspect your FTP is set a little low.

It's very difficult to consistently perform such intervals > FTP.

From March I do once a week after my rest day but as I said further on I might be mistaken as to what my FTP actually is as I don't have a power meter and have to estimate using HR history

Alex_Simmons/RST

markos1963 wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

markos1963 wrote:

I always do my 2x20s at 105%.

With what regularity/frequency are you doing this? and with what rest period?

If it's regular and weekly or twice weekly, then I suspect your FTP is set a little low.

It's very difficult to consistently perform such intervals > FTP.

From March I do once a week after my rest day but as I said further on I might be mistaken as to what my FTP actually is as I don't have a power meter and have to estimate using HR history

OK.

It's very very hard to consistently do such longer intervals > FTP in training, but given you are not measuring power, then really it's impossible to say what power of % of FTP you are actually riding at.

bigpikle

I also find a BIG difference between 95% FTP on the road, and 95% FTP on the rollers. Road sessions are far less fatiguing for me and I would struggle to do back to back 2x20's at that level indoors, but I could do it without major issues outside, all other things being equal.

Setarkos

Herbsman wrote:

Setarkos wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

Setarkos wrote:

...a specific workout (such as L4) should be done to the point of exhaustion.

Really? I read (admittedly only in 3 different books) that they should be done until your power drops by a certain percentage, and not a massive percentage either. I wouldn't describe that as exhaustion?

Yes, you're absolutely right. Maybe "exhaustion" is the wrong word, I meant exhaustion of your ability for that specific training zone. Don't know how to put that more elegantly.

Ah. When I think of exhaustion, I think of such time as when I'm literally too f**ked to pedal anymore

Difficult word to use I think. Complete exhaustion is not really possible on a bike because you still have to keep balance.
These two would not have been able to ride a bike anymore. But then again they could still crawl, so where they really fully exhausted?

Setarkos

Bigpikle wrote:

I also find a BIG difference between 95% FTP on the road, and 95% FTP on the rollers. Road sessions are far less fatiguing for me and I would struggle to do back to back 2x20's at that level indoors, but I could do it without major issues outside, all other things being equal.

I think to some extend most people feel that way. One main reason is overheating because you don't have any airstream. So it helps you have a fan, open the windows or even do the session on the balcony/in the garden.
Secondly, depending on what turbo you're using the resistance over one whole pedal revolution is different to that on the road because you have less momentum (fly wheel mass vs. whole bike+you in motion). I find that particularly annoying.

Herbsman

Setarkos wrote:

Difficult word to use I think. Complete exhaustion is not really possible on a bike

Indeed... I suppose the only way you can be fully exhausted is if you're dead. Maybe I need to recalibrate my interpretation meter.