If you had 2,500 grand to spend???

Grill

Hoopdriver wrote:

Grill wrote:

Hoopdriver wrote:

Grill wrote:

I don't see the point of going custom. These "mass produced" bikes are designed and developed to be competitive at the highest level and are built in the best fabs in the world. I don't trust some random dude to build me something awesome in his shed, especially for only 2500 bones.

The thing is you don't go to some random dude...

You won't get a custom carbon frame for anywhere close to that price, and it still won't be engineered as well as high-end mass-produced frame.
You can get a custom titanium frame for that price from Enigma or someone else, but it's still not "unique" as only the geometry is custom, not the whole frame.

I'm not sure what your definition of unique is but if I have a frame built for me, to my measurements and specifications, and no one else's, then have it painted to a precise livery and colours of my own choosing I cannot see how it could be anything other than unique.

It would be no more unique than if I painted any of my bikes. The fact that the geometry has been altered to achieve and ideal position does not make your bike more unique than mine as I've accomplished the same thing via my choice of stem, seatpost, and crankarm. Is anyone really going to notice that your frame has had a nip/tuck compared to the others out there? For 99.9% of people, the 400 quid extra for custom geometry is a waste of money as it can easily be achieved on the correct size stock frame.

Really the only reason most people go custom is because they want to feel special, not because it's necessary to attain a better level of comfort. But hey, it's your money, do what you want.

Hoopdriver

Grill wrote:

Hoopdriver wrote:

Grill wrote:

Hoopdriver wrote:

Grill wrote:

I don't see the point of going custom. These "mass produced" bikes are designed and developed to be competitive at the highest level and are built in the best fabs in the world. I don't trust some random dude to build me something awesome in his shed, especially for only 2500 bones.

The thing is you don't go to some random dude...

You won't get a custom carbon frame for anywhere close to that price, and it still won't be engineered as well as high-end mass-produced frame.
You can get a custom titanium frame for that price from Enigma or someone else, but it's still not "unique" as only the geometry is custom, not the whole frame.

I'm not sure what your definition of unique is but if I have a frame built for me, to my measurements and specifications, and no one else's, then have it painted to a precise livery and colours of my own choosing I cannot see how it could be anything other than unique.

It would be no more unique than if I painted any of my bikes. The fact that the geometry has been altered to achieve and ideal position does not make your bike more unique than mine as I've accomplished the same thing via my choice of stem, seatpost, and crankarm. Is anyone really going to notice that your frame has had a nip/tuck compared to the others out there? For 99.9% of people, the 400 quid extra for custom geometry is a waste of money as it can easily be achieved on the correct size stock frame.

Really the only reason most people go custom is because they want to feel special, not because it's necessary to attain a better level of comfort. But hey, it's your money, do what you want.

I do not think you know nearly as much as you think you do.

True, a lot of people do not 'need ' custom, but there are a surprising number, a sizeable minority, who, through old injuries and imbalances, do. Furthermore people have different riding styles, goals etc and may not be able to find a stock frame to suit them. This is especially true of touring and randonneuring bikes.

There is also the matter of styling, and this goes beyond paint - take for example the polished stainless steel lugs on my bespoke randonneur, lugs of a make and design if my choosing. You cannot get this in a shop.

By all means ride your mass produced carbon and b happy. No doubt you can get performance, in the abstract sense, but you'll never get character.

Grill

Touring/randonneuring is a different beast altogether. Had you kept up with the thread you'd find that the discussion is more specifically geared towards road/race bikes. That said I audax on both of my road bikes with no problems. In fact I'll be doing several 400km, 600km, and the LEL on my Foil.

If character equates to shiny lugs you can keep it. Unlike you I spend far too much time riding my bikes to give a damn about what they look like.

Hoopdriver

Grill wrote:

Touring/randonneuring is a different beast altogether. Had you kept up with the thread you'd find that the discussion is more specifically geared towards road/race bikes. That said I audax on both of my road bikes with no problems. In fact I'll be doing several 400km, 600km, and the LEL on my Foil.

If character equates to shiny lugs you can keep it. Unlike you I spend far too much time riding my bikes to give a damn about what they look like.

Again talking without knowing. You don't know a thing about me, my bicycles or the mileage I put in - you just shovel out whatever words fit your mood of the moment. What I have said about custom frames applies equally to road or race bikes - I used randonneuring or audax bikes as an example of a style you are least likely to find in the stock built market.

I am not sure that not giving a damn about what your bikes look like is necessarily a good thing.

Grill

You're right. All I know about you is that you enjoy waxing lyrical and prize doily bits over engineering. All I know about your bikes is that you're happy to pay someone a lot of money in order to be different, which leads me to believe that for you it's more about the kit than the actual riding. More of a "form over function" guy. I know nothing of your mileage, but had I a degree in deductive reasoning, I would say that you probably rode a lot when you were younger (and at the time didn't really care what you were riding). These days not so much, probably due to less free time (family perhaps), so you treat yourself to pretty bikes with spangly nipples to compensate.

Cycling is not a fashion show for me. Looking at next year's calender, between TT's, audaxes, events, sportives, holidays, and challenges I already have around 8000 miles penciled in and there's still club, training, and joy rides to consider. So no, I don't have time to pretty up my bikes in between. If this upsets you then you're more than welcome to come round and clean them yourself.

Hoopdriver

Grill wrote:

You're right. All I know about you is that you enjoy waxing lyrical and prize doily bits over engineering. All I know about your bikes is that you're happy to pay someone a lot of money in order to be different, which leads me to believe that for you it's more about the kit than the actual riding. More of a "form over function" guy. I know nothing of your mileage, but had I a degree in deductive reasoning, I would say that you probably rode a lot when you were younger (and at the time didn't really care what you were riding). These days not so much, probably due to less free time (family perhaps), so you treat yourself to pretty bikes with spangly nipples to compensate.

Cycling is not a fashion show for me. Looking at next year's calender, between TT's, audaxes, events, sportives, holidays, and challenges I already have around 8000 miles penciled in and there's still club, training, and joy rides to consider. So no, I don't have time to pretty up my bikes in between. If this upsets you then you're more than welcome to come round and clean them yourself.

I couldn't give a stuff how bad a nick you keep your bikes in. It's nothing to me. Wreck 'em, I don't care. If you don't give a sh*t about them, why should anyone else?

Good job you don't have a degree in deductive reasoning. They'd ask for it back. Wrong on nearly every count.

And 8000 miles is a pretty low mileage year for me - although this year I will probably come in around there. I like beautiful bikes and I like to ride them.

southdownswolf

Grill - I would suggest that you read Hoopdriver's blog.
I can assure you that he puts the mileage in. He also cares about bikes with a passion, just as with everything else that he does in his life.
Read his blog, you might just learn something. Edumecate yeself.

southdownswolf

Grill wrote:

You can get a custom titanium frame for that price from Enigma or someone else, but it's still not "unique" as only the geometry is custom, not the whole frame.

Surely if something is different to anything that anybody else has, then it is unique? If you have a bike made to your exact specification, including the frame dimensions, then it is highly likely that it is unique....

Grill

Hoopdriver wrote:

Grill wrote:

You're right. All I know about you is that you enjoy waxing lyrical and prize doily bits over engineering. All I know about your bikes is that you're happy to pay someone a lot of money in order to be different, which leads me to believe that for you it's more about the kit than the actual riding. More of a "form over function" guy. I know nothing of your mileage, but had I a degree in deductive reasoning, I would say that you probably rode a lot when you were younger (and at the time didn't really care what you were riding). These days not so much, probably due to less free time (family perhaps), so you treat yourself to pretty bikes with spangly nipples to compensate.

Cycling is not a fashion show for me. Looking at next year's calender, between TT's, audaxes, events, sportives, holidays, and challenges I already have around 8000 miles penciled in and there's still club, training, and joy rides to consider. So no, I don't have time to pretty up my bikes in between. If this upsets you then you're more than welcome to come round and clean them yourself.

I couldn't give a stuff how bad a nick you keep your bikes in. It's nothing to me. Wreck 'em, I don't care. If you don't give a sh*t about them, why should anyone else?

Good job you don't have a degree in deductive reasoning. They'd ask for it back. Wrong on nearly every count.

And 8000 miles is a pretty low mileage year for me - although this year I will probably come in around there. I like beautiful bikes and I like to ride them.

I agree, 8000 is low and is about half of what I'll end up doing. The point was that I ride near enough anything and everything I can so my focus is not so much on what I'm riding but on the actual ride itself. You could paint my bike pink an stick ruffles all over it and it wouldn't make a lick of difference to me.

I'm happy that you're not tied down and have time to ride, that's what it's all about. The fact that you're "artistic" and it translates to your bikes and blog just doesn't resonate with me as I have a different paradigm.

You still haven't given me any examples of custom carbon frames that are superior to those mass-produced and fall within the specified price point (which is sort of the point of this whole thread).

Hoopdriver

Grill wrote:

Hoopdriver wrote:

Grill wrote:

You're right. All I know about you is that you enjoy waxing lyrical and prize doily bits over engineering. All I know about your bikes is that you're happy to pay someone a lot of money in order to be different, which leads me to believe that for you it's more about the kit than the actual riding. More of a "form over function" guy. I know nothing of your mileage, but had I a degree in deductive reasoning, I would say that you probably rode a lot when you were younger (and at the time didn't really care what you were riding). These days not so much, probably due to less free time (family perhaps), so you treat yourself to pretty bikes with spangly nipples to compensate.

Cycling is not a fashion show for me. Looking at next year's calender, between TT's, audaxes, events, sportives, holidays, and challenges I already have around 8000 miles penciled in and there's still club, training, and joy rides to consider. So no, I don't have time to pretty up my bikes in between. If this upsets you then you're more than welcome to come round and clean them yourself.

I couldn't give a stuff how bad a nick you keep your bikes in. It's nothing to me. Wreck 'em, I don't care. If you don't give a sh*t about them, why should anyone else?

Good job you don't have a degree in deductive reasoning. They'd ask for it back. Wrong on nearly every count.

And 8000 miles is a pretty low mileage year for me - although this year I will probably come in around there. I like beautiful bikes and I like to ride them.

I agree, 8000 is low and is about half of what I'll end up doing. The point was that I ride near enough anything and everything I can so my focus is not so much on what I'm riding but on the actual ride itself. You could paint my bike pink an stick ruffles all over it and it wouldn't make a lick of difference to me.

I'm happy that you're not tied down and have time to ride, that's what it's all about. The fact that you're "artistic" and it translates to your bikes and blog just doesn't resonate with me as I have a different paradigm.

You still haven't given me any examples of custom carbon frames that are superior to those mass-produced and fall within the specified price point (which is sort of the point of this whole thread).

You assume so much.

For starters the thread was asking what bicycle you would buy if you had £2500 to spend. Nobody said a word about carbon or anything else. You simply assume that everyone must think like you, and that carbon is the only possible option anyone might consider. How blinkered is that? And how arrogant to make such assumptions about everyone else?

southdownswolf

kayo74 wrote:

If you had this kind of money to spend on a road bike, what would be your choice????.

No specific material mentioned.

I have to say that I would probably stroll down to Enigma to see what they could do for me...

thegibdog

Forum members in Different Opinions on How to Spend Money shocker.

LegendLust

thegibdog wrote:

Forum members in Different Opinions on How to Spend Money shocker.

fevmeister

'Tempers rise on What Bike? forum discussion as some guy disagrees with another guy'

moscowflyer

'Lost handbag ads placed in Cycling+ as two forum members lose theirs after throwing them at each other'

Grill

MoscowFlyer wrote:

'Lost handbag ads placed in Cycling+ as two forum members lose theirs after throwing them at each other'

I think you'll find that only a single ad was placed as my handbag was not a one-off Louis Vuitton.

Grill

Hoopdriver wrote:

For starters the thread was asking what bicycle you would buy if you had £2500 to spend. Nobody said a word about carbon or anything else.

Agreed.

Hoopdriver wrote:

You simply assume that everyone must think like you, and that carbon is the only possible option anyone might consider. How blinkered is that? And how arrogant to make such assumptions about everyone else?

Not at all, this is a clear-cut case of two people speaking the same language but not actually understanding each other. It's quite clear that I have a pragmatic outlook whereas yours is more artistic. I don't think everyone must think like me, I'm simply referring to my earlier post:

Grill wrote:

You won't get a custom carbon frame for anywhere close to that price, and it still won't be engineered as well as high-end mass-produced frame.

I took it upon myself to define the criteria as frame-only due to the associated cost of quality carbon frames. If you disagree with my opinion that the top of the line frames, which all happen to be carbon, from Specialized, Scott, Giant, Trek, Cervalo, et al. are superior to bespoke frames from artisan companies, that's fine. To call me blinkered and arrogant because of this? A bit strong. Fact is these companies put a massive amount of R&D into these frames to make sure that they have a superior product.

Different strokes for different folks, but that's what keeps the industry strong and innovative.

LegendLust

Grill wrote:

Hoopdriver wrote:

For starters the thread was asking what bicycle you would buy if you had £2500 to spend. Nobody said a word about carbon or anything else.

Agreed.

Hoopdriver wrote:

You simply assume that everyone must think like you, and that carbon is the only possible option anyone might consider. How blinkered is that? And how arrogant to make such assumptions about everyone else?

Not at all, this is a clear-cut case of two people speaking the same language but not actually understanding each other. It's quite clear that I have a pragmatic outlook whereas yours is more artistic. I don't think everyone must think like me, I'm simply referring to my earlier post:

Grill wrote:

You won't get a custom carbon frame for anywhere close to that price, and it still won't be engineered as well as high-end mass-produced frame.

I took it upon myself to define the criteria as frame-only due to the associated cost of quality carbon frames. If you disagree with my opinion that the top of the line frames, which all happen to be carbon, from Specialized, Scott, Giant, Trek, Cervalo, et al. are superior to bespoke frames from artisan companies, that's fine. To call me blinkered and arrogant because of this? A bit strong. Fact is these companies put a massive amount of R&D into these frames to make sure that they have a superior product.

Different strokes for different folks, but that's what keeps the industry strong and innovative.

Have you ever ridden a bespoke carbon frame?

Beatmaker

If it was my cash, and I was ready to spend right now. It would be this:

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/focus-izalco-pro-10-dura-ace-2012/

Focus Izalco Pro with Dura Ace and Rotor 3D cranks. And I'd have a chunk of change for a present for the wife, as I break the news the new settee will have to wait a bit longer.

Grill

LegendLust wrote:

Have you ever ridden a bespoke carbon frame?

Nope, but that's part of the problem for me as anything you demo is going to be different to the one you end up buying.

I ran a high-end ski/snowboard shop in the Alpes for many years. In that time I rode hundreds of pairs of skis and snowboards from the biggest companies all the way down to those actually made by hand in a shed. Sure, some of the kit from the artisan community rode quite well, but when it came to my own boards and skis I'd always find myself sticking with larger brands as they always seemed to have a product that suited me to a T. There's also the issue of warranty as I've found that it's easier to get replacement from the big names and certainly much quicker. In my mind this translates over into the cycling world quite well. I have a certain affinity for Scott as I'd always been impressed with their skis (When the Crusade came out I couldn't believe they'd managed to make a pair of skis that I could shred pow on and on the way to the BC cane a slalom course) and I haven't yet been let down on the cycling side.

But that's just me

LegendLust

Grill wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

Have you ever ridden a bespoke carbon frame?

Nope, but that's part of the problem for me as anything you demo is going to be different to the one you end up buying.

I ran a high-end ski/snowboard shop in the Alpes for many years. In that time I rode hundreds of pairs of skis and snowboards from the biggest companies all the way down to those actually made by hand in a shed. Sure, some of the kit from the artisan community rode quite well, but when it came to my own boards and skis I'd always find myself sticking with larger brands as they always seemed to have a product that suited me to a T. There's also the issue of warranty as I've found that it's easier to get replacement from the big names and certainly much quicker. In my mind this translates over into the cycling world quite well. I have a certain affinity for Scott as I'd always been impressed with their skis (When the Crusade came out I couldn't believe they'd managed to make a pair of skis that I could shred pow on and on the way to the BC cane a slalom course) and I haven't yet been let down on the cycling side.

But that's just me

OK. You're entitled to your opinion but how can you be so total in your conviction that the top end frames from the mass market manufacturers ride better than a bespoke artisan frame, when you've never ridden one? And would you suggest the likes of Crumpton, Parlee, IF, Legend, Sarto etc are akin to the ski's made in a shed?

Hoopdriver

And Dario Pegoretti, Richard Sachs, Sacha White, Peter Weigle and a host of British builders - Brian Rourke, Mark Reilly, Mercian to name but a few - these are just 'random dudes' in a shed, trying hard but never really making the grade?

rajMAN

Random dudes to all meet up in same shed in Bristol next April shocker! :shock:

Grill

LegendLust wrote:

OK. You're entitled to your opinion but how can you be so total in your conviction that the top end frames from the mass market manufacturers ride better than a bespoke artisan frame, when you've never ridden one? And would you suggest the likes of Crumpton, Parlee, IF, Legend, Sarto etc are akin to the ski's made in a shed?

What I've found is that most companies tend to focus on certain types of riding and are naturally superior in those areas. I've had powder boards and skis from La Boheme, Zag, Dupraz, and Furlan to name a few. They were all excellent in the powder, but that's it. Certainly fit for purpose, but the fact that there was so much compromise involved with the other aspects of riding made them less desirable. When it comes to race skis, all the big brands make amazing product that's near impossible to separate. Atomic, Rossi, Nordica all ride fantastically well when you're caning it but they also suffer from a lack of compromise if you're not racing. What that have done is take all that know-how and tech and trickle it down to friendly versions that are for more flexible to different programs. This creates skis that can ride all conditions well, but still excel in their main discipline (race). Unfortunately smaller brands don't have the budgets or staff to make a product of the same caliber. So far, I've found that the cycling industry (as well as most others out there) is pretty much the same way.

The smaller brands do tend to excel the "fit for purpose" disciplines that don't hold the focus of larger brands (less profit) which is why I see when you take racing as a criteria out of the equation you get some fantastic choices. I will certainly be looking towards Legend (off the shelf, not custom) if I find that after a couple of 600km audaxes the Foil just isn't up to snuff.

I see bikes the way I see snowboards and skis- they're simply tools to allow me to enjoy and get the most out of the activities that I love. I'm the very antithesis of precious when it comes to my equipment (I averaged 5 broken boards a season) and because of this and my experiences of interfacing direct with brands/manufacturers/distributors I have a jaded view of aftersales service from smaller (or shall we say artisan) brands. I'm comforted by the fact that if something goes wrong in most cases I can get it sorted quickly and efficiently.

This is not to say that said artisan brands don't have excellent aftersales, but I currently have no need to venture off in that direction. This is all a bit of a tangent as I'm all about small companies doing interesting stuff, it's more about the fact that I can't see ever paying for something bespoke as I can make the correct stock frame fit through choice of post and stem.

Hope this gives a bit more insight into where I'm coming from.