32 or 36

rubertoe

I'm gathering the components for a wheel build for my focus and am going for Shimano XT hubs and Mavic Rims (undecided model of yet).

Should I go for 32 or 36 holes? are there really many noticeable difference between the two?

These wheels will be mainly for commuting on crap london roads.

UndercoverElephant

Depends on whether you're a "gentleman of size" or not.

sketchley

It depends on strength of the rim, less spokes as I'm sure you are aware means each spoke is taking a greater share of the load, therefore a flimsy rim would be better with more spokes, how much effect this has on 32 vs 36 I don't know but could work it out if I could be borthered.

I'm 18 stone and I run Ultegra Hubs with Rigida DP18 rims built by Harry Rowland, we talked about 32 vs 36 before he built them and he thought with my weight and those rims 36 hole would be overkill, so far he's been proved right, apart from one snapped spoke early on "which could happen to anyone", the wheels are still true after 15 months and 5,000 miles or so most of which is commuting in London pot holes and all.

Kieran_Burns

I wondered about this with the Tricross and opted for 36 'cos of the bridleways, now I ride on a CX bike with 20 spokes. Not quite sure how that happened...

walkingbootweather

There of course many other factors to be taken into account but as a rule of thumb I'd usually go for a 36 (spokes and bust)

Kieran_Burns

walkingbootweather wrote:

There of course many other factors to be taken into account but as a rule of thumb I'd usually go for a 36 (spokes and bust)

deep rim?

walkingbootweather

Kieran_Burns wrote:

walkingbootweather wrote:

There of course many other factors to be taken into account but as a rule of thumb I'd usually go for a 36 (spokes and bust)

deep rim?

depends on the nipples...

rubertoe

I'm 13 stone if that helps.

wgwarburton

Hi,
On a commuter bike? 36.

It's not so much the absolute strength of the wheel as the level of redundancy: I believe you are likely to be able to ride a good bit further on 35 spokes than on 31...

I get paid to turn up at work, not to try and get there.

Cheers,
W.

SteppenHerring

Get a carbon disc. Imagine how much faster you'll get to work.

UndercoverElephant

It's unlikely to make much difference. I have a pair of 36 spokes, a front dynamo wheel with 32 spokes, all of which have been solid as a rock since I built them. 36-spokes are best if you are, or are carrying, a heavy load, but most of the time 32 is plenty.

That said, each spoke is roughly 6 grammes, so you'll be giving away 24g *PER WHEEL*, which in SCR terms can be the difference between scalp or dishonour.

flimflam_machine

From Sheldon Brown's website:

How Many Spokes?
Up until the early 1980s, virtually all adult bikes had 72 spokes.

32 front/40 rear was the standard for British bikes, 36 front and rear for other countries. The exception was super-fancy special purpose racing wheels, which might have 32 spokes front and rear.

The Great Spoke Scam: In the early '80s a clever marketeer hit upon the idea of using only 32 spokes in wheels for production bikes. Because of the association of 32 spoke wheels with exotic, high-performance bikes, the manufacturers were able to cut corners and save money while presenting it as an "upgrade!" The resulting wheels were noticeably weaker than comparable 36 spoke wheels, but held up well enough for most customers.

Since then, this practice has been carried to an extreme, with 28-, 24-, even 16-spoke wheels being offered, and presented as it they were somehow an "upgrade."

Actually, such wheels normally are not an upgrade in practice. When the spokes are farther apart on the rim, it is necessary to use a heavier rim to compensate, so there isn't usually even a weight benefit from these newer wheels!

This type of wheel requires unusually high spoke tension, since the load is carried by fewer spokes. If a spoke does break, the wheel generally becomes instantly unridable. The hub may break too; see John Allen's article.

If you want highest performance, it is generally best to have more spokes in the rear wheel than the front. For instance, 28/36 is better than 32/32. People very rarely have trouble with front wheels:

Front wheels are symmetrically dished.
Front wheels carry less weight.
Front wheels don't have to deal with torsional loads (unless there's a hub brake).

If you have the same number of spokes front and rear, either the front wheel is heavier than it needs to be, or the rear wheel is weaker than it should be.

Wrath Rob

Carbon disc? Nah, get some Mad Fibre wheels. No weight limit and you'll never have to true a wheel again.

daviesee

rubertoe wrote:

I'm 13 stone if that helps.

I'd say 32 then.
I am 13 1/2 stone and my wheel builder hummed n' hawed till he settled on 32 and said for over 14 stone he would have recommended 36.

rubertoe

flimflam_machine wrote:

From Sheldon Brown's website:

How Many Spokes?
Stuff.

Yeah I read that; was seeking opinions from fellow fourmites

t4tomo

walkingbootweather wrote:

There of course many other factors to be taken into account but as a rule of thumb I'd usually go for a 36 (spokes and bust)

Your making a decision based on too little information- i.e. I'd take at 32D over a 36A, I think cup size is more important.

walkingbootweather

t4tomo wrote:

walkingbootweather wrote:

There of course many other factors to be taken into account but as a rule of thumb I'd usually go for a 36 (spokes and bust)

Your making a decision based on too little information- i.e. I'd take at 32D over a 36A, I think cup size is more important.

To be fair I did suggest other factors needed to be taken into account. Now a larger cup is likely to result in an excess of 'play' and inevitable control problems...... in my experience.

rubertoe

So are we saying 32 D(t swiss) is the way forward?

Also Cup size is always more important than round the body size, unless you like fatties.

walkingbootweather

You trying to tell me you haven't been in the interweb lusting after fat birds?

flimflam_machine

rubertoe wrote:

flimflam_machine wrote:

From Sheldon Brown's website:

How Many Spokes?
Stuff.

Yeah I read that; was seeking opinions from fellow fourmites

I'd probably go for 32 front, 36 rear, especially if you have panniers.

supersonic

As has been mentioned, a lot depends on the rim, type of spoke and build. My Crossmax wheel has 18 front spokes, radially laced with plain gauge, and gets smashed all over the place on rocks yet still stays true - but the rim is a tough 19mm unit.

More spokes build into a stiffer wheel (for a given rim), and are easier to true.

Do you have a rim in mind?

Hoopdriver

flimflam_machine wrote:

From Sheldon Brown's website:

How Many Spokes?
Up until the early 1980s, virtually all adult bikes had 72 spokes.

32 front/40 rear was the standard for British bikes, 36 front and rear for other countries. The exception was super-fancy special purpose racing wheels, which might have 32 spokes front and rear.

The Great Spoke Scam: In the early '80s a clever marketeer hit upon the idea of using only 32 spokes in wheels for production bikes. Because of the association of 32 spoke wheels with exotic, high-performance bikes, the manufacturers were able to cut corners and save money while presenting it as an "upgrade!" The resulting wheels were noticeably weaker than comparable 36 spoke wheels, but held up well enough for most customers.

Since then, this practice has been carried to an extreme, with 28-, 24-, even 16-spoke wheels being offered, and presented as it they were somehow an "upgrade."

Actually, such wheels normally are not an upgrade in practice. When the spokes are farther apart on the rim, it is necessary to use a heavier rim to compensate, so there isn't usually even a weight benefit from these newer wheels!

This type of wheel requires unusually high spoke tension, since the load is carried by fewer spokes. If a spoke does break, the wheel generally becomes instantly unridable. The hub may break too; see John Allen's article.

If you want highest performance, it is generally best to have more spokes in the rear wheel than the front. For instance, 28/36 is better than 32/32. People very rarely have trouble with front wheels:

Front wheels are symmetrically dished.
Front wheels carry less weight.
Front wheels don't have to deal with torsional loads (unless there's a hub brake).

If you have the same number of spokes front and rear, either the front wheel is heavier than it needs to be, or the rear wheel is weaker than it should be.

+1 on that

I always go for 36 spokes

rubertoe

supersonic wrote:

As has been mentioned, a lot depends on the rim, type of spoke and build. My Crossmax wheel has 18 front spokes, radially laced with plain gauge, and gets smashed all over the place on rocks yet still stays true - but the rim is a tough 19mm unit.

More spokes build into a stiffer wheel (for a given rim), and are easier to true.

Do you have a rim in mind?

These.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=71072

walkingbootweather

rubertoe wrote:

supersonic wrote:

More spokes build into a stiffer wheel (for a given rim), and are easier to true.

Do you have a rim in mind?

These.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=71072

In that case the 36 hole is in stock and the cheapest. For commuting that seems to make the most sense.

pastryboy

48 for me and I only weigh 11 stone - I like not having to worry about things breaking on me.

supersonic

I think you'll be fine on 32, but as the 36 is cheaper, I'd go for that - make sure the spokes are double butted. DT Swiss Comp 14/15g spokes (2.0/1.8/2.0) are a good option.

Hoopdriver

pastryboy wrote:

48 for me and I only weigh 11 stone - I like not having to worry about things breaking on me.

I have 48 on my expedition bike, but then that was designed for riding n Africa and outback Australia while carrying a lot of weight in water. Although I no longer ride out there, and use the bike mainly as my winter ride these days, if or rather when I eventually replace the rims I will go with 48 again on that bike because I have grown used to the look and rather like it (on that bike)

rubertoe

supersonic wrote:

I think you'll be fine on 32, but as the 36 is cheaper, I'd go for that - make sure the spokes are double butted. DT Swiss Comp 14/15g spokes (2.0/1.8/2.0) are a good option.

these

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=12629

EKE_38BPM

My fixie has 36 spoke deep rims (Varno) at the back and a 20 bladed spoked Mavic Aksium front wheel. That set-up has survived thousands of London commuter miles and both wheels are still straight and true.
I've never had a broken spoke and there have been times when I've smashed into potholes (leading to pinch flats) which I assumed at the time would have resulted in wheel damage but all was fine.

So, in answer to the OP's question, 36 at the back for London pot-hole proof reliability and the redundancy of the extra 4 spokes but you can go lighter at the front (the Aksiums have 20 radial flat spokes).

As usual, Sheldon is right. 36 at the back and less at the front.

EKE_38BPM

pastryboy wrote:

48 for me and I only weigh 11 stone - I like not having to worry about things breaking on me.

48?! Was that a deliberate choice for supreme low-tension redundancy, or were you after the low-rider look?

rolf_f

UndercoverElephant wrote:

That said, each spoke is roughly 6 grammes, so you'll be giving away 24g *PER WHEEL*, which in SCR terms can be the difference between scalp or dishonour.

Ahh, but you'll have shorter spokes on the 36 irrc so the difference is less than that!!