Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Herbsman

SIS Go gels (at the RRP of £35.00) cost 5.3p per gram of carbohydrate. A 5kg bag of maltodextrin from Myprotein is 0.25p/g . The gels are over 21 times more expensive per gram of CHO.

They recommend 2 gels per hour. There is 22g of carbohydrate in each gel. Is there any reason, apart from delayed fluid absorption (which surely happens when you take gels anyway), I shouldn't just add an extra 44g of maltodextrin to my drink bottle? :?

owenlars

An expression containing the words nail, head, on, the and hit springs to mind

jonomc4

I carry a few - sometimes I find myself flagging on a long ride and they do offer a boost - but I rarely use them and they upset my stomach when I do.

bigmat

You need liquids to quench thirst as well as provide energy, so mixing it up too gloopy isn't ideal. I sometimes have one bottle weakish / water, and one with a stronger mix, but if its hot or you are only carrying one bottle (for a crit, say) then a couple of gels in your back pocket is a bit more convenient. Gels are handy for a bit of a hit say before a sprint or a climb - need to take them around 10 minutes beforehand I think. I would never take 2 an hour though - maybe 2 over a 2-3 hour race at a push. Having said all that I'm well and truly an amateur so those with more experience might say something different.

bigmat

-.-

ugo.santalucia

I really don't get the need for all that shxt... I can understand electrolytes on a hot day.. But they are so rare in this country... A handful in a year... All these energy products are just full of crap and completely unnecessary. Bring with you a cereal bar and if you need more, just stop somewhere and have a cake or a bacon roll... Will cost you the same and so much more enjoyable.
As for drink, in winter I fill the bottle with warm tea, which stays warm for up to ten minutes, but it is nice even cold

sub55

Thing about gels is the vast majority of them on the market aren't isotonic . They need to be taken with water to dilute them in order for the carbs to be absorbed through the gut .
You often see riders taking them along side carb rich energy drinks . Which rather defeats the object as the concentrations of carbs in the gut , remain too high to be absorbed efficently.
Have been known on long rides to take 2 bottles with me , one with a higher concentration of carbs than is required and the second bottle with plain water. So you dilute the one with the other and when you run out of water , you can get more. So the energy drink lasts longer. But simply drinking higher concentrations of carbs wont help. As you wont absorb them anyway .

Herbsman

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I really don't get the need for all that shxt... I can understand electrolytes on a hot day.. But they are so rare in this country... A handful in a year... All these energy products are just full of crap and completely unnecessary. Bring with you a cereal bar and if you need more, just stop somewhere and have a cake or a bacon roll... Will cost you the same and so much more enjoyable.
As for drink, in winter I fill the bottle with warm tea, which stays warm for up to ten minutes, but it is nice even cold

Note that I posted this in the Amateur Race subforum. Are you going to stop and have cake during a race?

Herbsman

sub55 wrote:

But simply drinking higher concentrations of carbs wont help. As you wont absorb them anyway .

What would happen to them then?

During a 3.5h race I drink about two 710ml bottles containing approximately 6% (45g) CHO.

However, the stomach can absorb about 60g CHO per hour; more if you use multiple transportable carbohydrates. For a 3.5h race then, I should theoretically be able to absorb at least 210g of CHO in that time. That's 120g more than I currently take in.

So why wouldn't I be able to absorb the carbohydrate in a bottle that contained 105g (approx 15%) of CHO?

sub55

Herbsman wrote:

sub55 wrote:

But simply drinking higher concentrations of carbs wont help. As you wont absorb them anyway .

What would happen to them then?

During a 3.5h race I drink about two 710ml bottles containing approximately 6% (45g) CHO.

However, the stomach can absorb about 60g CHO per hour; more if you use multiple transportable carbohydrates. For a 3.5h race then, I should theoretically be able to absorb at least 210g of CHO in that time. That's 120g more than I currently take in.

So why wouldn't I be able to absorb the carbohydrate in a bottle that contained 105g (approx 15%) of CHO?

Are you sure your stomach can take 60g of carbs per hour .
That very much sounds like a marketing statement caluculated on a average. The figure should really be described as grams per kilograms of body weight. The calculations are also based on a fully hydrated test specimen / protocol . If your doing a three and a half hour race , the chances of being fully hydrated after 60 mins or so are about nil.

Herbsman

sub55 wrote:

The figure should really be described as grams per kilograms of body weight.

Should it? Is an individual's stomach carbohydrate absorption rate affected by their bodyweight? Would I be able to absorb more carbohydrate per hour if I became grossly overweight?

wcrombie

Herbsman wrote:

sub55 wrote:

The figure should really be described as grams per kilograms of body weight.

Should it? Is an individual's stomach carbohydrate absorption rate affected by their bodyweight? Would I be able to absorb more carbohydrate per hour if I became grossly overweight?

I have been told that body weight is not relevent to the body absorption rates for carbs, although I have read otherwise but given the person who told me did his PHD in areas related to energy absorption, i would tend to believe them....

Gels give you options, but I agree that they are not very cost effective. In the end it is about finding your limits of energy absorption which vary person by person. Also some people are fructose intollerant etc which complicates things a bit....
But overall from my observations, very few people consume anywhere near their max amount of energy during a race.... although on the other hand i do find it comical that people take energy drink and gels when doing an 80km regional B rr....

tomb8555

wcrombie wrote:

But overall from my observations, very few people consume anywhere near their max amount of energy during a race.... although on the other hand i do find it comical that people take energy drink and gels when doing an 80km regional B rr....

I would find it fairly comical if someone rocked up to an 80km road race with just a bottle of plain water.

Sure, many people can ride that distance with little / no additional energy sources - but it's certainly not the way to get the most out of your body.

ugo.santalucia

Herbsman wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I really don't get the need for all that shxt... I can understand electrolytes on a hot day.. But they are so rare in this country... A handful in a year... All these energy products are just full of crap and completely unnecessary. Bring with you a cereal bar and if you need more, just stop somewhere and have a cake or a bacon roll... Will cost you the same and so much more enjoyable.
As for drink, in winter I fill the bottle with warm tea, which stays warm for up to ten minutes, but it is nice even cold

Note that I posted this in the Amateur Race subforum. Are you going to stop and have cake during a race?

Yeah, I noticed that only after... Not sure how I ended up commenting in this section... I rarely do... Anyway, gels upset my stomach too as someone else pointed out

SBezza

As mentioned above, it isn't just a case of getting the carbohydrate in, it needs to be ingested with water. You need 4 parts water with 1 part carbohydrate for it to be stored as glycogen. Mixing your bottle to a very high strength is likely to lead to an upset stomach compared with using gels and either water or a weak carb drink. The max I have seen suggested is 10%, though you might be able to go with more, it would be a case of trying it in training

You should really work on as Sub55 said grams per kilogram of body weight, though I suspect most average sized cyclists could tolerate 60gms per hour.

If the gels are just for racing, surely price doesn't matter a great deal, as it is not as though you would be getting through hundreds of them in a year. I would try and fuel up properly before the race, and use them more sparingly during a race, or perhaps towards the back end of a race. If the race is a road race where you might be having a lull every now and then I would use proper food as well, might help with any stomach upsets. If it is something like a 100 mile TT, then decent before event fuelling is needed with help from gels and fluid during the event.

Herbsman

SIS gels are supposedly isotonic and supposedly require no additional water. They are 37% carbohydrate.

How can this or any other gel plus water work better, or cause any less gastrointestinal distress, than a slightly stronger drink?

rcshields

Can't look past the psychological benefit - gels feel like they do more (than bottles), it's a nice bit of comfort food in a race, something to go to when you feel like you need a kick.

SBezza

Herbsman wrote:

SIS gels are supposedly isotonic and supposedly require no additional water. They are 37% carbohydrate.

How can this or any other gel plus water work better, or cause any less gastrointestinal distress, than a slightly stronger drink?

Try it, a strong drink will give me really bad stomach cramps, and when mixed with a SiS Gel has caused all manner of issues. SiS gels with either a weak drink or water doesn't give the same issue. I guess it is probably the ingredients in the drink (fructose is known to cause stomach upset in some people). You might be perfectly OK, but try and keep the solution to a strength where you can optomise energy delivery and avoid dehydration (potentially an even worse issue than not having an energy drink).

Grill

12hr TT I went through almost 20 gels. Certainly worked for me as I have a tendency to under-fuel.

FransJacques

Like favourite saddles you really have to experiment and figure it out on your own. Let me start by saying few people get into cycling, esp racing, to save money.

For cross, road, training rides or sportives I love gels, they work for me and I've done a lot of experimentation with riding to exhaustion and to complete bonk/hunger knock, usually not on purpose, to get a timetable down.

I'm 83 to 85 kgs depending and produce good power so I need a lot of fuel. In a cross race I have one gel 15-20 mins before the start and 1 caffeine gel (I only do SIS) 20 mins into the hour. That's a lot but cross is intense, done at 90% Max HR.

For road races I figure on 1 gel per 40-45 mins depending how hard I'm working, you need to go by feel. I keep a caffeinated gel for the last 20-30 mins.

On sportives I can get away with 1 gel per hour.

I do take bottles with GO and PSP22 but I don't *rely* on them as my primary fuel source. In longer races and sportives they're good at quenching my thirst every 15-20 mins by my big body needs more than they can provide. I see the carbs from drinks as bonus carbs, that's it.

Key thing about gels in longer events is they can get you out of the hurt locker whereas liquids will take way too long to take effect.

So maybe you need to work on concocting your own gels which is a great thing to experiment with. Running stores have 200-250ml flasks http://www.runningwarehouse.com/descpage-SF200M.html that you can use to store your gels. For eas of use, a lot of cross and roadies transfer gels to such a flask and freeze/chill what they don't use for next time.

IF you have the time and inclination go for it, there's a lot of resources on the web for how to brew your own. And yes, that will save you a packet.

But for time-pressed people, buying gels you know work and in 40 packs to save a bit is not a high price to pay to keep the tank dependably filled. For me there are enough variables in racing, I try to control the ones I can.

rsands

I use this stuff in my bottles:

http://highfive.co.uk/product/energy/energysource

Doesnt turn my stomach and tastes good too in citrus. Also tried the xtreme version with caffeine and seems good. Your body can absorb carbs at 60/hour average. They say with theirs they can get that up to 90/hour...I am no scientist so cant measure that! But the logic behind it makes sense. add Fructose to it and your body will absorb it alongside carbs in a different way - meaning you effectively getting more. read here:

http://highfive.co.uk/high5-faster-and- ... d-caffeine

I feel good when taking it and on long training rides i felt very strong

Herbsman

And how much are they paying you to spam this thread?

Herbsman

I suppose there becomes a point where a drink contains so much carbohydrate that it stops being refreshing and it fails to quenching thirst.

Instead of having two 6% carb drinks try one with 0% carbohydrate and one with the equivalent of however many gels you would normally take for the duration plus however much water you would drink along with them (I reckon this would work out to be about 360ml at 18% for a 3.5h race during which you might take 3 gels). That way you have one drink solely for rehydration and one solely for energy. Much easier than fumbling about in your back pockets and getting sticky handlebars.




I have enough gels to last me 3 or 4 more seasons so I'm not bothered trying to save my money. I just think if there's an easier and cheaper way of getting an energy boost during a race then why not use it...

rsands

Herbsman wrote:

And how much are they paying you to spam this thread?

Sorry was that directed to me there??

Trev The Rev

rsands wrote:

I use this stuff in my bottles:

http://highfive.co.uk/product/energy/energysource

Doesnt turn my stomach and tastes good too in citrus. Also tried the xtreme version with caffeine and seems good. Your body can absorb carbs at 60/hour average. They say with theirs they can get that up to 90/hour...I am no scientist so cant measure that! But the logic behind it makes sense. add Fructose to it and your body will absorb it alongside carbs in a different way - meaning you effectively getting more. read here:

http://highfive.co.uk/high5-faster-and- ... d-caffeine

I feel good when taking it and on long training rides i felt very strong

Read the science. From their own article.


Quote(my bold)
. He was told to cutout all energy products in the days leading up to the lab test and was told to
avoid foods high in C4 carbohydrate–mainly sugar and plant based foods.
Henning also had to perform a depletion training session a couple of days before
testing. This involved a two to three hour intense training session at 80-90 per
cent of maximum heart rate. The aim of this session is to be glycogen depleting,
to empty any glycogen stores. If this wasn’t enough Henning was told to fast after his evening meal the night
beforehand, which meant no breakfast. It might not sound that tough but these world class Ironman athletes eat a lot.We have seen Henning eat and know he would have been feeling wobbly before he even kicked his leg over the bike. End quote:

Now would any rational person start an endurance race in that state? Henning performed but compared to what? No control, no blinding, in fact everyone knew exactly what they were doing, making an advert. All the test proves is that Henning can consume a lot of High 5 - and carbohydrate helps performance in endurance events if you turn up at the start depleted of glycogen stores.

What they should be testing is if High 5 has a performance benefit if the athlete turns up fully fed after a proper meal the night before and a decent meal a few hours before the start and if High 5 works better than honey (which is a mixture of sugar & fructose), bananas, pork pies, dolphin friendly tuna on toast, or water sugar & salt with a double espresso.

rsands

You should put yourself forward as the tester (i am not being smart). Its just what the normal test would be - totally deplete them to see if their product works in absorption, etc. Your never going to get a firm answer from science in this - its impossible...too many variables in real life. But i am stating my opinion on what I feel when using the product. Every body is different otherwise we would all just train the exact same - why do we not? cause everyone is different. This product may work for you...it may not. Sometimes we dont need to uproot every minor detail in the test phase to immediately say the products crap.

Why dont you email them and ask them to do your test on an average diet, average meal before race, average drinks before a race...one problem whats the average?

Trev The Rev

rsands wrote:

You should put yourself forward as the tester (i am not being smart). Its just what the normal test would be - totally deplete them to see if their product works in absorption, etc. Your never going to get a firm answer from science in this - its impossible...too many variables in real life. But i am stating my opinion on what I feel when using the product. Every body is different otherwise we would all just train the exact same - why do we not? cause everyone is different. This product may work for you...it may not. Sometimes we dont need to uproot every minor detail in the test phase to immediately say the products crap.

Why dont you email them and ask them to do your test on an average diet, average meal before race, average drinks before a race...one problem whats the average?

No reason why they can't be tested having eaten for several days a controlled balanced diet. The point I'm making is simple. Testing someone in an already glycogen depleted state is obviously going to make the product look as if it works.

Fact is even when the athlete has fasted for 12 hours, carbohydrate does not improve performance until approx the 2 hour mark. If the athletes were not fasted, it is probable if not certain, carbohydrate would not improve performance for even longer.

Herbsman

wilo13 wrote:

It has been proven you do not need to take on carbs until 90-120 minutes into exercise.

If you're going to come with statements like that, you'd better come with evidence

Trev The Rev

Herbsman wrote:

wilo13 wrote:

It has been proven you do not need to take on carbs until 90-120 minutes into exercise.

If you're going to come with statements like that, you'd better come with evidence

Anyone who wishes to prove otherwise should produce evidence. With respect to performance - around the 2 hour mark is where ingesting carbohydrate starts to have an effect.

Herbsman

Trev The Rev wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

wilo13 wrote:

It has been proven you do not need to take on carbs until 90-120 minutes into exercise.

If you're going to come with statements like that, you'd better come with evidence

Anyone who wishes to prove otherwise should produce evidence.

It doesn't work like that you mug

Trev The Rev

Herbsman wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

wilo13 wrote:

It has been proven you do not need to take on carbs until 90-120 minutes into exercise.

If you're going to come with statements like that, you'd better come with evidence

Anyone who wishes to prove otherwise should produce evidence.

It doesn't work like that you mug

Sorry, you are wrong about this, the evidence does show around the 2 h mark is where ingestion of supplemental carbohydrate during exercise begins to be beneficial.

It is for those who claim certain products improve performance to produce evidence.

You don't agree with me, then fine, but is there really any need to resort to name calling?