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Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

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  • I'm not a big fan of sending people to jail for cheating at sport. It just seems daft.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • ProssPross Posts: 31,641
    I agree but there is surely an element of fraud / obtaining money by deception either in prize money or salary (although both cases would rely on the people who handed over the money not being aware of the cheating which in the case of salary is highly unlikely!).
  • Pross wrote:
    I agree but there is surely an element of fraud / obtaining money by deception either in prize money or salary (although both cases would rely on the people who handed over the money not being aware of the cheating which in the case of salary is highly unlikely!).


    Hmmm.....lets be honest, team owners, sponsors and organisers were hardly the innocents themselves in everything. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.
  • On the surface they are simple sporting cheats but what this guy is saying is that they are also cheating clean riders out of opportunities.

    For every chemically assisted win, there is a clean rider who didn't get the win, prize money and the subsequent opportunities.

    Look at the decent UK pros in the 90s who made the odd venture abroad and achieved decent results yet were overshadowed by the cheats. Riders such as Matt Stephens, Chris Walker, John Tanner, Chris Lillywhite, Keith Reynolds, Simeon Hempsall. As far as I am aware, all of these guys were clean, had some decent international results yet were not able to get on internationally. These are the guys who should be most aggrieved by the EPO generation as they have missed out on a more successful, better paid career and possibly a career in management / commentary after retirement.
  • TMRTMR Posts: 3,986
    Pross wrote:
    I agree but there is surely an element of fraud / obtaining money by deception either in prize money or salary (although both cases would rely on the people who handed over the money not being aware of the cheating which in the case of salary is highly unlikely!).

    Obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception as it used to be in the UK. I think it's been repealed by the Fraud Act 2006 though. But you're spot on. I agree with the view. The athlete has deceived his/her Team and sponsor(s) by presenting themselves as clean riders when that is not the case.
  • On the surface they are simple sporting cheats but what this guy is saying is that they are also cheating clean riders out of opportunities.

    For every chemically assisted win, there is a clean rider who didn't get the win, prize money and the subsequent opportunities.

    Look at the decent UK pros in the 90s who made the odd venture abroad and achieved decent results yet were overshadowed by the cheats. Riders such as Matt Stephens, Chris Walker, John Tanner, Chris Lillywhite, Keith Reynolds, Simeon Hempsall. As far as I am aware, all of these guys were clean, had some decent international results yet were not able to get on internationally. These are the guys who should be most aggrieved by the EPO generation as they have missed out on a more successful, better paid career and possibly a career in management / commentary after retirement.

    So how do you apportion wins and rewards across not only a host of races where the victor hasn't been proved to cheat but across all the ones that have? How do you decide which riders the world over "never got the chance"? How do you compensate them for the endorsements and post-cyclin career they "should" have had?

    You can't. It's an exercise in futility.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • I'm not saying you should.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 16,195
    Personally, I have always thought it should be fraud, but it would be hard to prosecute as you would have to prove intent beyond reasonable doubt, so Contador would probably not have been prosecuted.
  • I'm not a big fan of sending people to jail for cheating at sport. It just seems daft.

    I think people look at this slightly incorrectly. Although it is a sport and is there primarily for our entertainment, it is still a job. In your average day to day job, if you claimed money that wasn't rightfully yours (say in your pay packet), or invented a contract for a deal to gain extra commission or hit a bonus target, what would happen? At best you would be sacked and your company would claw back the money, or at worst (depending on the size of the sums involved) you would be arrested and charged.

    As far as I am concearned the riders who doped were commiting fraud. They were wilfully breaking contracts, rules, guidelines, moral codes whatever you want to call it in order to get their extra commission. Lying and cheating for financial gain.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,089
    On the flip side to the above, it's done a massive amount to put people off doping in countries where it is illegal under national law, e.g. France
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • mike6mike6 Posts: 1,199
    It's fraud. Pure and simple. I believe there is at least one European country that has the offence of "Sporting Fraud" It may be France.
    It is a job. Big contracts are gained by winning races.
    Would Armstrong be a multi millionaire if he had not "Won" 7 Tours?????? No, he would not. Would he have been sponsored by Nike, Trek, Oakley, etc etc without winning the Tour? Of course not.
    Consequently he has defrauded these companies. This is probably why the Tour wants its money back.
    You could argue he has defrauded all the people who bought yellow wrist bands on the strength of him being a "superhero, cancer survivor who can win the Tour".
  • Vino'sGhostVino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    IS IT Boll***s fraud, everyone sponsors, teams, riders know what goes on. even outsiders the "fans" know whats happening.

    All these bleeding hearts appearing now. get over themselves.

    i feel better now
  • k1875k1875 Posts: 485
    IS IT Boll***s fraud, everyone sponsors, teams, riders know what goes on. even outsiders the "fans" know whats happening.

    That'll be why everyone was / is openly doping then ? Why Bertie just rolled over and accepted he'd taken a wee drop of clen and Armstrong has held his hands up ?

    If you stand up in public and declare "i'm clean" and you are offered a contract on that basis (regardless of whether your team, sponsors or fans know it's possibly / likely / certainly false), that is fraud. Your opinion as to whether that matters or not doesn't change that fact i'm afraid.
  • k1875 wrote:
    IS IT Boll***s fraud, everyone sponsors, teams, riders know what goes on. even outsiders the "fans" know whats happening.

    That'll be why everyone was / is openly doping then ? Why Bertie just rolled over and accepted he'd taken a wee drop of clen and Armstrong has held his hands up ?

    If you stand up in public and declare "i'm clean" and you are offered a contract on that basis (regardless of whether your team, sponsors or fans know it's possibly / likely / certainly false), that is fraud. Your opinion as to whether that matters or not doesn't change that fact i'm afraid.

    Exactly, I dont get this attitude of 'its sport, so therefore it cant be fraud.' If it could be considered fraudulent in any other industry and business, then it is sure as hell also fraudulent in sport. Riding a bike for a professional team is a JOB. Subject to the rules and regulations of all other jobs. Doping itself is now a criminal act in France. For me its simple, return the money you won while doping, or be charged with fraud.
  • k1875 wrote:
    IS IT Boll***s fraud, everyone sponsors, teams, riders know what goes on. even outsiders the "fans" know whats happening.

    That'll be why everyone was / is openly doping then ? Why Bertie just rolled over and accepted he'd taken a wee drop of clen and Armstrong has held his hands up ?

    If you stand up in public and declare "i'm clean" and you are offered a contract on that basis (regardless of whether your team, sponsors or fans know it's possibly / likely / certainly false), that is fraud. Your opinion as to whether that matters or not doesn't change that fact i'm afraid.

    Exactly, I dont get this attitude of 'its sport, so therefore it cant be fraud.' If it could be considered fraudulent in any other industry and business, then it is sure as hell also fraudulent in sport. Riding a bike for a professional team is a JOB. Subject to the rules and regulations of all other jobs. Doping itself is now a criminal act in France. For me its simple, return the money you won while doping, or be charged with fraud.

    I'm unsure if returning the money you stole means you get awa with stealing it in the first place.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • alihisgreatalihisgreat Posts: 3,872
    I'm not a big fan of sending people to jail for cheating at sport. It just seems daft.

    I think you fail to see the distinction between 'sport' and 'professional sport' and you seem to be generalizing and assuming all sport is the same.. in that its just the action of playing a game or whatever.

    Think about committing fraud when playing monopoly at Christmas with your family, and committing fraud when running a £million property Business.
  • Just got around to reading that article by Will Routley

    He's on the money re the dopers who are confessing now
  • nathancomnathancom Posts: 1,567
    IS IT Boll***s fraud, everyone sponsors, teams, riders know what goes on. even outsiders the "fans" know whats happening.

    All these bleeding hearts appearing now. get over themselves.

    i feel better now
    Yes because we want to maintain a culture which encourages young sportspeople to risk their lives by pushing chemical assistance to the limit... :roll:

    How about the Skins case against UCI, isn't this the same argument being used just in reverse. I can't see Skins being successful.
  • A good example is Adrian Mutu who used to play for Chelsea. Chelsea signed him for around 16 million. Mutu was then caught taking coke and sacked from Chelsea. Chelsea then sued him for the 16 million transfer fee and won, as it was breach of contract.

    I can see very little difference, besides the fact that alot of these guys have stood up in court and denied these allegations, which is Perjury.
  • Sorry to bang on, but something I brought up on another thread has just popped into my head. The reason I think these guys should be in jail is not just about fraud, its the only way I believe cycling can become clean. As adults we are constantly evaluating risk/reward scenario's, and when the risk is too great we back down. Now as a cyclist how great is the risk when you dope really? Two years maximum of your career? Now if the risk was: Lifetime ban, repay all prize money and possible time in jail, how many do you think would be doping?
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 61,009 Lives Here
    It's a profession, so it's basically a white collar crime.

    If I cheat heavily enough in my area of work I can face fines and even jail time.

    No different for sports people. The results of the races maybe seem trivial, but it's cheating in a professional context for money.
  • It's a profession, so it's basically a white collar crime.

    If I cheat heavily enough in my area of work I can face fines and even jail time.

    No different for sports people. The results of the races maybe seem trivial, but it's cheating in a professional context for money.

    Spot on
  • It's a profession, so it's basically a white collar crime.

    If I cheat heavily enough in my area of work I can face fines and even jail time.

    No different for sports people. The results of the races maybe seem trivial, but it's cheating in a professional context for money.

    Spot on


    Same should apply to race fixing
  • It's a profession, so it's basically a white collar crime.

    If I cheat heavily enough in my area of work I can face fines and even jail time.

    No different for sports people. The results of the races maybe seem trivial, but it's cheating in a professional context for money.

    Spot on


    Same should apply to race fixing

    Yeah, just been reading that Vino thread. In football, rugby, cricket or the like in this country there are serious sanctions if you do anything what so ever to effect the score line or result. A prime example is Juventus in Italy who got relegated and stripped of all titles etc for match fixing and others banned and facing criminal charges. No idea why it is deemed ok in cycling. That being said, in Spain there is the 'suitcase of cash' i.e if you are Real Madrid and you need Barcelona to lose to Valencia in order for you to win the title, you are allowed to offer the Valencia team and manager a cash bonus if they win. Sum's up the Spaniards attitude to most sports really.
  • mike6mike6 Posts: 1,199
    IS IT Boll***s fraud, everyone sponsors, teams, riders know what goes on. even outsiders the "fans" know whats happening.

    All these bleeding hearts appearing now. get over themselves.

    i feel better now

    Wrong on all counts.

    Its a professional occupation, and taking money under false pretenses, ie cheating, is fraud. Same as in any paid work.
  • Vino'sGhostVino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    mike6 wrote:
    IS IT Boll***s fraud, everyone sponsors, teams, riders know what goes on. even outsiders the "fans" know whats happening.

    All these bleeding hearts appearing now. get over themselves.

    i feel better now

    Wrong on all counts.

    Its a professional occupation, and taking money under false pretenses, ie cheating, is fraud. Same as in any paid work.
    As an employee though custom and practice (extending to the whole industry not just the employer) might very well mean the cheater might not be guilty of fraud, at least not in the legal sense.

    I think the representations of riding clean to the wider world is one thing but if the employer is running an organised doping ring or turns a blind eye then there really is no fraud. The case of the employer defrauding a sponsor is more complicated. Organisers are different again, there are a whole series of post tour kermeeses (spelling) where the final result is decided before the event. It is, an entertainment business, not too dissimilar in its sporting plausibility to pro wrestling. No doubt there is skill and remarkable sporting skill but the pr road scene is about entertainment and sponsorship and has been since before it became what it is.

    Certainly in the uk in employment terms at least, the contract of employment or for service might be what's written down but it will be what it actually is. (Autoclenz is the guide).


    Cricket is very different from cycling which put bluntly " is just not cricket"
  • rebsrebs Posts: 891
    It's a profession, so it's basically a white collar crime.

    If I cheat heavily enough in my area of work I can face fines and even jail time.

    No different for sports people. The results of the races maybe seem trivial, but it's cheating in a professional context for money.

    This is certainly the issue of it and one that never gets explored much until recently. Partly because... doped up cyclists are fun to watch :mrgreen: (sorry Rick :P)

    But by doping they are looking to deceive for cash that may have gone to another competitor who was clean. This of course is never been proven and it is possible that the doped up guy may have succeeded being clean. By doping they should forfeit this right to be recognised and awarded such prizes. There are similarities to someone to forges and embezzles mone to a cyclist who is tanked up looking to earn money. Sad thing about it is how common the practice got in cycling and not enough people stood up and said that this is wrong.

    Now we are in a situation of saying to people... Ah don't worry about it everyone did it so it's ok forget about it we'll play nicely now.
  • "I'm unsure if returning the money you stole means you get awa with stealing it in the first place."

    I think if you are a M.P. that's exactly how it works :D
  • ocdupalaisocdupalais Posts: 4,013
    mike6 wrote:
    IS IT Boll***s fraud, everyone sponsors, teams, riders know what goes on. even outsiders the "fans" know whats happening.

    All these bleeding hearts appearing now. get over themselves.

    i feel better now

    Wrong on all counts.

    Its a professional occupation, and taking money under false pretenses, ie cheating, is fraud. Same as in any paid work.
    As an employee though custom and practice (extending to the whole industry not just the employer) might very well mean the cheater might not be guilty of fraud, at least not in the legal sense.

    I think the representations of riding clean to the wider world is one thing but if the employer is running an organised doping ring or turns a blind eye then there really is no fraud. The case of the employer defrauding a sponsor is more complicated. Organisers are different again, there are a whole series of post tour kermeeses (spelling) where the final result is decided before the event. It is, an entertainment business, not too dissimilar in its sporting plausibility to pro wrestling. No doubt there is skill and remarkable sporting skill but the pr road scene is about entertainment and sponsorship and has been since before it became what it is.

    Certainly in the uk in employment terms at least, the contract of employment or for service might be what's written down but it will be what it actually is. (Autoclenz is the guide).


    Cricket is very different from cycling which put bluntly " is just not cricket"

    Might these "bleeding hearts" be similar in sentiment to those fools who historically dared question slavery?
    Are these the same "bleeding hearts" who suggested that the term "conjugal rights" (now more commonly known, in the eyes of the law, as rape) might be a smoke-screen? Or maybe the same lot that said that the idea that perhaps environmental concern isn't just a load of hippie codswallop... or those that asked that maybe the Nazis might essentially be wrong-'uns... and any other issue that might be deemed namby-pamby libertarian pinko bullsh!t ("women voting!? Really, man - have you thought this through?")?
    And are these "bleeding hearts" how you'd describe any fan of the sport who doesn't automatically come from the cynical stance that they're all at it: therefore you've got to get yours before you get got?

    I'll admit that there have been times when I've wished folk weren't so hardline or black/white in their take on this matter (doping in cycling) - can't people just continue on with the traditional "it's part of the culture, historically and all that: now, can't we just see a damn good race?", etc, but the gaffe is blown; the game's over...it's the end of that scene, now - thank's very much, though.
    Over time, there are mentalities that become known as "dinosaur", old-fashioned, or worse..."quaint". Jeremy Clarkson is a perfect example: he may have 2 million blokes guffawing at his brusque dismissals of the on-coming realities; but he's got 20 million people doing the "[email protected]" gesture everytime he opens his mouth...
  • Vino'sGhostVino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    I think suggesting that I'm a slavery, rape and nazi sympathiser is a good indication of how out of proportion people are about all this. And that was my point.

    A little balance is required.
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