wheels

Headhuunter

I think I need some new wheels for my caad8, the stock wheels are rubbish. I mentioned before that my local bike guy said that black spokes break a lot, well he seems to be right...another bloody spoke has gone within about 100 miles.... Had anyone seen any decent wheel bargains out there recently? I'm thinking something not too expensive like rs10, rs20, fulcrum or open pro or something....anyone seen anything good?

supersonic

The colour of the spoke is just a coincidence, the problem here looks like a poor build of the wheels. If you are tough on wheels, these are worth a look:

http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/WPP ... c_wheelset

With 32 butted spokes they should last well. The build quality tends to be good too from these.

spasypaddy

my stock answer when anyone asks me this
http://www.merlincycles.com/bike-shop/w ... o-rim.html

supersonic

spasypaddy wrote:

my stock answer when anyone asks me this
http://www.merlincycles.com/bike-shop/w ... o-rim.html

I very nearly recommended them too! Great wheels, pity they are out of stock of the rear.

First.Aspect

For the around the same price you can get some Shimano ultegra wheels. Essentially the same hub internals.

You wouldn't get the same ease of replacement of parts (hopefully you wouldn't need that) but they are a bit lighter and don't need rim tape. I have the 29er version of these and I'm quite impressed.

Headhuunter

Thanks. I don't think I'm particularly hard on wheels but these wheels and another set of cheap wheels which also had black spokes which I had on another bike have been awful... I've got rs80 on my good bike, have had pro lite Como and shimano whr550 among others and they've all been fine...

First.Aspect

Headhuunter wrote:

Thanks. I don't think I'm particularly hard on wheels but these wheels and another set of cheap wheels which also had black spokes which I had on another bike have been awful... I've got rs80 on my good bike, have had pro lite Como and shimano whr550 among others and they've all been fine...

The only spokes I've ever broken have been silver and I had a hell of a time with multiple issues with another set of silver wheels. I have owned two sets of all black wheels and the only problem I ever had was the spoke pulling through the eyelet because the wheel builder hadn't used washers in order to save weight.

What does this mean?

Headhuunter

supersonic wrote:

The colour of the spoke is just a coincidence, the problem here looks like a poor build of the wheels. If you are tough on wheels, these are worth a look:

http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/WPP ... c_wheelset

With 32 butted spokes they should last well. The build quality tends to be good too from these.

Do planet s still do model b? I can't find them in their site... Don't really want heavy, semi industrial wheels...

Headhuunter

First Aspect wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Thanks. I don't think I'm particularly hard on wheels but these wheels and another set of cheap wheels which also had black spokes which I had on another bike have been awful... I've got rs80 on my good bike, have had pro lite Como and shimano whr550 among others and they've all been fine...

The only spokes I've ever broken have been silver and I had a hell of a time with multiple issues with another set of silver wheels. I have owned two sets of all black wheels and the only problem I ever had was the spoke pulling through the eyelet because the wheel builder hadn't used washers in order to save weight.

What does this mean?

I dunno but there is a lot of chat out there that the process used to blacken some spokes weakens them....

First.Aspect

Headhuunter wrote:

I dunno but there is a lot of chat out there that the process used to blacken some spokes weakens them....

There really isn't.

And what there is reminds me of the chat about carbon fibre. A bit wee and a bit woo.

Why aren't other blackedned aluminium parts, like fork steerers, derailleurs, stems, bars and seatposts also suspect? Deep down you must know that its bollicks, and merely a "belief", surely? Edit: Come to think of it, aren't the rims of all of the wheels you are looking at also black? Dude, be careful.

Edit again - jeesus my spelling is bad.

Headhuunter

First Aspect wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

I dunno but there is a lot of chat out there that the process used to blacken some spokes weakens them....

There really isn't.

And what there is reminds me of the chat about carbon fibre. A bit wee and a bit woo.

Why aren't other blackedned aluminium parts, like fork steerers, derailleurs, stems, bars and seatposts also suspect? Deep down you must know that its bollicks, and merely a "belief", surely? Edit: Come to think of it, aren't the rims of all of the wheels you are looking at also black? Dude, be careful.

Edit again - jeesus my spelling is bad.

Who knows... I have no idea but it sounds like there is/was some part of the process which weakened spokes. I have no idea whether the same process was applies to other black components, I think they're mainly just painted so,certainly not the same thing, how are you so sure it's all hoo ha?

Anyway back to wheels.... Anyone else seem anything good?

supersonic

Have a look on CRCs wheel builder - Shimano hubs, Mavic rims, double butted spokes - hard to go wrong. Just pick to suit the budget.

First.Aspect

I'm just being obtuse. But I've been cycling for a long time and never heard of this before your bike mechanic said so. This site has a proliferation of chemists, physicists and other scientists who regard it as another example of superstitious technobunkum, of which there is a rich history in cycling. So I can't be sure any more than I can be "sure" of anything, but I would be very suprised indeed if the thing about black spokes was anything more than acecdotal momentum.

i.e. You have no basis for this belief other than something your mechanic guy told you, and that you happen to have broken a black spoke. A second broken spoke on a wheel is a result of the first, but because you want to believe that black spokes are bad, you regard it as a separate incident. You, the bike mechanic, the guy who told him, selectively recall or notice breakage of black spokes to add to your repository of information in order to confirm the belief you already have. At the same time you ignore naysayers like me, who tell you about silver spoke breakages, or Supersonic who muses on such things during the copious amount of free time a PhD student has and cannot think of any good reason why blackening of a spoke would turn it into a dairy product.

I've had a dig on the interweb and the only "explanation" I've found is that the treatments to blacken steel might involve elevated temperature and "corrosive substances". In this case, every weld is a bit of a problem isn't it? And annealing must be bad. Clearly these last two statements are not true, so why would one believe the first?

See what I'm getting at?

What is your budget for wheels?

SteppenHerring

I'm happy with my Ksyrium SLs (black spokes) on the weekend bike. Commuter bike has good old fashioned 36 spoke jobs and weighs slightly less than my car. And I am a fat git.

spasypaddy

cant recommend PX wheels, the hubs are awful. and getting a replacement freehub from them was near to impossible.

Id recommend Fulcrum Racing 3s if youre budget can stretch but then for a commuter bike i would still go for the ones on my first link if you can find a rear wheel to match. Every part is replaceable/rebuildable by any bike shop rather than factory wheels which tend to use prepriatory spokes/hubs

cyclingprop

Only ever had black spokes. Not snapped one yet (tough wood). Maybe you're just too fat for them?

Headhuunter

cyclingprop wrote:

Only ever had black spokes. Not snapped one yet (tough wood). Maybe you're just too fat for them?

Too fat? If I lose much more weight I'll just be bone!

Headhuunter

First Aspect wrote:

I'm just being obtuse. But I've been cycling for a long time and never heard of this before your bike mechanic said so. This site has a proliferation of chemists, physicists and other scientists who regard it as another example of superstitious technobunkum, of which there is a rich history in cycling. So I can't be sure any more than I can be "sure" of anything, but I would be very suprised indeed if the thing about black spokes was anything more than acecdotal momentum.

i.e. You have no basis for this belief other than something your mechanic guy told you, and that you happen to have broken a black spoke. A second broken spoke on a wheel is a result of the first, but because you want to believe that black spokes are bad, you regard it as a separate incident. You, the bike mechanic, the guy who told him, selectively recall or notice breakage of black spokes to add to your repository of information in order to confirm the belief you already have. At the same time you ignore naysayers like me, who tell you about silver spoke breakages, or Supersonic who muses on such things during the copious amount of free time a PhD student has and cannot think of any good reason why blackening of a spoke would turn it into a dairy product.

I've had a dig on the interweb and the only "explanation" I've found is that the treatments to blacken steel might involve elevated temperature and "corrosive substances". In this case, every weld is a bit of a problem isn't it? And annealing must be bad. Clearly these last two statements are not true, so why would one believe the first?

See what I'm getting at?

What is your budget for wheels?

I don't necessarily believe that there it's an innate problem with black spokes, you just seemed to be of the view that it couldn't possibly be true without even having looked into it...

Budget for wheels may be around 200, 250 at a stretch....

UndercoverElephant

Spa cycles will do you hand-built wheels with top-class spokes and Ultegra hubs for £247. Those would be very nice wheels.

http://spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b0s178p1954

Headhuunter

Thanks they look good... What does everyone think of shimano rs20? I've got rs80 on my good bike and the rs20 takes the same (ish) spokes which can be hard to find... You can get a pair of rs20 for around 100 quid!

First.Aspect

Headhuunter wrote:

I don't necessarily believe that there it's an innate problem with black spokes, you just seemed to be of the view that it couldn't possibly be true without even having looked into it...

Budget for wheels may be around 200, 250 at a stretch....

Clearly you do, because you specifically enquired about silver spoked wheels following a broken black spoke.

I'd argue that I've looked into it. I'm not a metallurgist or even specifically a surface chemist, but I do have comparatively extensive knowldege of the structure of materials. I've looked at the explanations proffered by people who have concerns over black spokes and it doesn't scientifically make much sense to me, as I've explained. There is an alternative and perfectly reasonable explanation (i.e. black spokes are typically cheap and cheap spokes are typically crap). I also know that there is nothing unique about the conversion coatings used in cycling. Such treatments are used throughout industry, including the automotive and aeronautical industries, to treat and improve longevity of metal parts.

I can't prove a negative and more than, for example, I can't "prove" that washing up liquid isn't going to rot carbon fibre (which, believe it or not I have also read). In accordance with my training, I have therefore applied Occam's Razor. It doesn't preclude being persuaded otherwise, but I would have to see some sort of evidence or argument as to why I should steer clear of conversion coatings.

---

At your budget, I don't think you can go far wrong with shimano hubs and a 32h or 36h open pro build. I do not think that for training wheels there is much sense in going above 105. The ultegra freewheels and hub internals are identical, only the outer finish is different.

In general terms, spoke breakages are rare. I've had two, on the same wheel, in 20+ years. So again I wouldn't be too concerned if I were you about availability of replacement parts for a set of wheels from a large manufacturer such as Mavic, Fulcrum or Shimano which use a proprietory spoke sysyem. The advantage of Shimano is the use of standard cup and cone bearings, which is arguably more practical than cartridge bearings for winter wheels.

However you should know that such wheel systems may use aluminium spokes (more brittle than steel) or that grey or silvery coatings may also be conversion coatings of the same general type as used for black coatings. If your lbs mechanic is going purely on colour, he may have missed this last point.

zerostar

supersonic wrote:

Have a look on CRCs wheel builder - Shimano hubs, Mavic rims, double butted spokes - hard to go wrong. Just pick to suit the budget.

I am being stupid, I cannot see a wheel builder option on the crc site.
Would you mind pointing me in the right direction?

thanks

domgears

I just bought some Fulcrum Racing Zero's Dark Label for just 596 Euro, they also have Racing 3s for 335 Euros, I have used those before and are an excellent pair of wheels, bomb proof, reasonable weight, ride like on rails and look sexy to boot.

The best site for good deals on such things is www.bike-discount.de or see link below.
http://www.bike-discount.de/shop/m451/k ... l?od=&ft=1

BigLights

For what it's worth i've got RS30s on my RIbble and they've been fine....and I'm a rather larger lad than you are Headhuunter. The R501s on my Sirrus have also impressed me...they take a real beating, kerbs, the whole lot, not missed a beat. But they're quite utilitarian.

the_fuggler

A friend of mine also has a CAAD8 and hated the stock wheels. He put some Mavic Aksiums on (2010 model I think). They roll really nicely. 133 quid the pair from Chain Reaction:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=58590

phy2sll2

Contact Paolo and get him to build you some. He's on this site as ugo.santalucia.

He's very thorough so you won't have any problems down the line.

rubertoe

phy2sll2 wrote:

Contact Paolo and get him to build you some. He's on this site as ugo.santalucia.

He's very thorough so you won't have any problems down the line.

This,

I have been in contact with him over a wheel build and the advice given and prices quoted so fare have been excellent

Wrath Rob

Also take a look at Wheelsmith. I got my PowerTap build from him, he was very patient with my questions, quizzed me with the type of riding I'd be doing and then made a good recommendation. I've been very happy with the result.

The advantage of using a wheel builder is in both getting the best wheel for you and your budget but also using stock parts. May machine built wheels (Mavic are very bad for this) use non-standard spokes and strange lacing patterns which make it very hard for repairs. For example, if the bike shop have to order the replacement spokes in, you're off the bike for a few days. Wheel builders will use standard parts and therefore generally something that most decent bike shops carry.

FWIW, my commuter has run Aksiums for the last 2.5 years. Now that I'm riding further and faster I've hit the limitations of the wheels, e.g. flex in the rear wheel when out of the saddle up hills. I've just about reached the end of life for the front wheel now (worn rim) and there's no point trying to replace the rim only, like you could on a hand built set as you can't really, economically, swap a new rim in. Yes they are cheaper at the point of sale, but they're effectively disposable wheels.

Headhuunter

First Aspect wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

I don't necessarily believe that there it's an innate problem with black spokes, you just seemed to be of the view that it couldn't possibly be true without even having looked into it...

Budget for wheels may be around 200, 250 at a stretch....

Clearly you do, because you specifically enquired about silver spoked wheels following a broken black spoke.

I'd argue that I've looked into it. I'm not a metallurgist or even specifically a surface chemist, but I do have comparatively extensive knowldege of the structure of materials. I've looked at the explanations proffered by people who have concerns over black spokes and it doesn't scientifically make much sense to me, as I've explained. There is an alternative and perfectly reasonable explanation (i.e. black spokes are typically cheap and cheap spokes are typically crap). I also know that there is nothing unique about the conversion coatings used in cycling. Such treatments are used throughout industry, including the automotive and aeronautical industries, to treat and improve longevity of metal parts.

I can't prove a negative and more than, for example, I can't "prove" that washing up liquid isn't going to rot carbon fibre (which, believe it or not I have also read). In accordance with my training, I have therefore applied Occam's Razor. It doesn't preclude being persuaded otherwise, but I would have to see some sort of evidence or argument as to why I should steer clear of conversion coatings.

---

At your budget, I don't think you can go far wrong with shimano hubs and a 32h or 36h open pro build. I do not think that for training wheels there is much sense in going above 105. The ultegra freewheels and hub internals are identical, only the outer finish is different.

In general terms, spoke breakages are rare. I've had two, on the same wheel, in 20+ years. So again I wouldn't be too concerned if I were you about availability of replacement parts for a set of wheels from a large manufacturer such as Mavic, Fulcrum or Shimano which use a proprietory spoke sysyem. The advantage of Shimano is the use of standard cup and cone bearings, which is arguably more practical than cartridge bearings for winter wheels.

However you should know that such wheel systems may use aluminium spokes (more brittle than steel) or that grey or silvery coatings may also be conversion coatings of the same general type as used for black coatings. If your lbs mechanic is going purely on colour, he may have missed this last point.

The only reason I half believe that there is a problem with black spokes is that I've had a fair few wheels and bikes over the years and it does seem that the ones with black spokes pop more than silver. I had a pair of, admittedly cheapo, black spokeed wheels a while back which literally popped a spoke a week. Now these wheels on the CAAD8 and also my Shimano WHR 550, although the last ones have only popped 1 spoke, although they're black and similar wheels have never had any probs. Added to this, the LBS guy who seems to know what he's saying and from what I read on the net about the treatment given to black spokes to make them black... Having said that, my Pro Lite Como have black spokes and I don't think I've ever lost one of those... I'm simply working out my view from experience rather than scientific metallurgical knowledge!

Headhuunter

Thanks very much for all your suggestions... I'm a bit torn between getting a pair of built up or traditionally spoked wheels with easily replaceable parts and a pair of high tension, low spoke count, newer style wheels... Hmmm....

Wrath Rob

Headhuunter wrote:

Thanks very much for all your suggestions... I'm a bit torn between getting a pair of built up or traditionally spoked wheels with easily replaceable parts and a pair of high tension, low spoke count, newer style wheels... Hmmm....

What riding are you going to do? Lots of hills, or "Sunday best" riding with mates who appreciate some bling? Get the low spoke count ones. Commute or lots of training miles where you want something reliable and easy to repair if it breaks? Get the handbuilts.

Also, I'm not sure on your physiology. If you're on the heavier side, then you'll most likely want something with more spokes anyway.

TBH, one of the wheel builders should be able to give you some advice and help you make up your mind.