100 points for 2nd cat ?

jibberjim

Pross - the reduced points for _midweek_ circuit races has already been done for midweek events - 10point maximum like the winter series. I'm not sure if that is national or regional, but it applies to all the London area crit circuits which suggests national.

Tom Butcher

Jim - There's no mention of National C on the website or the rulebook that I can see - I'm not doubting that a motion may have been passed to reintroduce it but if they haven't let anyone know it exists that might explain the lack of promotions ? Points for circuit races wont have been updated yet maybe but they are still showing as 60 for a National B win and don't races from some time soon count towards 2013 too - so if that has changed nationally you'd expect them to publicise it soon.

Pross

jibberjim wrote:

Pross - the reduced points for _midweek_ circuit races has already been done for midweek events - 10point maximum like the winter series. I'm not sure if that is national or regional, but it applies to all the London area crit circuits which suggests national.

Most recent one around here (end of September) was 10 points for the 4th only race and 15 points for the 2/3/4 race. It was a 'crit' on an outdoor velodrome. In the 2/3/4 race there were only 9 finishers so anyone finishing got at least 2 points, it's ludicrous. The previous race in the series only had 8 people finish. At the very least the points should be reduced if less than a certain number of people finish.

jibberjim

Pross wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

Pross - the reduced points for _midweek_ circuit races has already been done for midweek events - 10point maximum like the winter series. I'm not sure if that is national or regional, but it applies to all the London area crit circuits which suggests national.

Most recent one around here (end of September) was 10 points for the 4th only race and 15 points for the 2/3/4 race. It was a 'crit' on an outdoor velodrome. In the 2/3/4 race there were only 9 finishers so anyone finishing got at least 2 points, it's ludicrous. The previous race in the series only had 8 people finish. At the very least the points should be reduced if less than a certain number of people finish.

That's a 2013 rule for sure - the same as December -> Feb can only be 10pts for a win too.

Pross

Shame, I was going to enter next year and in the 3 race series I'd have had a decent chance of finally getting a 3rd cat licence

bigmat

oldwelshman wrote:

BigMat wrote:

I can't see me ever making 100 points at 3rd cat, I just don't have time to race enough and the points on offer for 3rd cat races are too low (I guess you can always do 2/3 races). 40 seems about right as far as I can see. What kind of pussy deliberately stays a level below his own ability just so he can pick up wins against weaker opposition? That's just pathetic.

What an arsehole, think before you write.
What about a vet that could be 60 years old, wins two medals at world masters and UK champs and gets almost enough to get 1st cat? Do you think a 60 yearold would want to ride as a 1st cat?
I know a couple of guys that dont race bcf becuase they are a second cat technically.
Last year I had 185 points as second cat and alsmost made 1st cat which I did not want to as it limits races I can do for training to 1st cat races, so that makes me a pussy also?

Fair enough, maybe should have thought about that one a bit more. I was looking at it from persepctive of 3rd to 2nd cat which is what I thought the thread was about, but apologies if I caused offence. It does seem that there are issues that maybe need addressing around 2nd to 1st cat. Actually, reading my quote back, I still think its pretty sad to "deliberately stay a level below your own ability just so you can pick up wins against weaker opposition". Not sure why that opinion makes me an arsehole. :roll: Fair enough if you have other reasons for wanting to stay where you are.

oldwelshman

BigMat wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

BigMat wrote:

I can't see me ever making 100 points at 3rd cat, I just don't have time to race enough and the points on offer for 3rd cat races are too low (I guess you can always do 2/3 races). 40 seems about right as far as I can see. What kind of pussy deliberately stays a level below his own ability just so he can pick up wins against weaker opposition? That's just pathetic.

What an arsehole, think before you write.
What about a vet that could be 60 years old, wins two medals at world masters and UK champs and gets almost enough to get 1st cat? Do you think a 60 yearold would want to ride as a 1st cat?
I know a couple of guys that dont race bcf becuase they are a second cat technically.
Last year I had 185 points as second cat and alsmost made 1st cat which I did not want to as it limits races I can do for training to 1st cat races, so that makes me a pussy also?

Fair enough, maybe should have thought about that one a bit more. I was looking at it from persepctive of 3rd to 2nd cat which is what I thought the thread was about, but apologies if I caused offence. It does seem that there are issues that maybe need addressing around 2nd to 1st cat. Actually, reading my quote back, I still think its pretty sad to "deliberately stay a level below your own ability just so you can pick up wins against weaker opposition". Not sure why that opinion makes me an arsehole. :roll: Fair enough if you have other reasons for wanting to stay where you are.

I cannot see how the new systems would improve what you say is happeneing, in fact it would make it worse.
How do you reckon riders stay down a category so they can pick up wins against weaker riders? If thats the case they would get more points and become a 2nd cat surely? Then with new system they would have to win more races.
All this will do is make more third cat riders, not sure whats the point of that.

oldwelshman

Pross wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

Pross - the reduced points for _midweek_ circuit races has already been done for midweek events - 10point maximum like the winter series. I'm not sure if that is national or regional, but it applies to all the London area crit circuits which suggests national.

Most recent one around here (end of September) was 10 points for the 4th only race and 15 points for the 2/3/4 race. It was a 'crit' on an outdoor velodrome. In the 2/3/4 race there were only 9 finishers so anyone finishing got at least 2 points, it's ludicrous. The previous race in the series only had 8 people finish. At the very least the points should be reduced if less than a certain number of people finish.

Not going to work Pross. So if your in a hard race, get in a break of say 4 and some riders pack , as they do, then you say instead of 15 poijts for a win you get less? Or if it is pissing down and 10 poeple turn up and ride, you say becuase the others stayed in bed, that the ones that rode get less points than the ones that ride in sunny weather?
If people get easy points it does not matter, they will waste their money riding 1,2 races as they will get smacked then be back down following year so whats the point of chasing points (excus the pun) to get higher category?

jibberjim

oldwelshman wrote:

If people get easy points it does not matter, they will waste their money riding 1,2 races as they will get smacked then be back down following year so whats the point of chasing points (excus the pun) to get higher category?

Isn't the problem that they stop racing - and because bike racing is unusual in that needs people of a similar ability to have a race so if people stop racing it reduces the chance from everyone? Essentially the current structure gives people a big disincentive to upgrade (and therefore race at all once they're close) because if they do then they lose the rest of this season - and all of next in races they feel they can compete in.

As Stuart Benstead wrote in the minutes of the 2011 meeting I mentioned above - if there are 5 ability categories, there should be 5 categories of races.

Yes racers who chase points pointlessly will get a kicking - but riders getting a kicking in a category above may well be harming the racers in the category below who have one less person to race. I found before I gave up racing the 3rd and even the 2/3 races around london very dull, and would've welcomed a bigger distinction between the two with stronger more aggressive racing in the 2nds. More points to upgrade is a route to that I think, it may not be the one I'd pick, but it's a route.

I didn't find the same racing further away from London, but that could be the circuits as much as the riders as I only did races that were more interesting to me. It's probably academic for me anyway as I'm not sure I'll tempted back to 2 or 3 racing at all anyway.

bigmat

oldwelshman wrote:

BigMat wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

BigMat wrote:

I can't see me ever making 100 points at 3rd cat, I just don't have time to race enough and the points on offer for 3rd cat races are too low (I guess you can always do 2/3 races). 40 seems about right as far as I can see. What kind of pussy deliberately stays a level below his own ability just so he can pick up wins against weaker opposition? That's just pathetic.

What an arsehole, think before you write.
What about a vet that could be 60 years old, wins two medals at world masters and UK champs and gets almost enough to get 1st cat? Do you think a 60 yearold would want to ride as a 1st cat?
I know a couple of guys that dont race bcf becuase they are a second cat technically.
Last year I had 185 points as second cat and alsmost made 1st cat which I did not want to as it limits races I can do for training to 1st cat races, so that makes me a pussy also?

Fair enough, maybe should have thought about that one a bit more. I was looking at it from persepctive of 3rd to 2nd cat which is what I thought the thread was about, but apologies if I caused offence. It does seem that there are issues that maybe need addressing around 2nd to 1st cat. Actually, reading my quote back, I still think its pretty sad to "deliberately stay a level below your own ability just so you can pick up wins against weaker opposition". Not sure why that opinion makes me an arsehole. :roll: Fair enough if you have other reasons for wanting to stay where you are.

I cannot see how the new systems would improve what you say is happeneing, in fact it would make it worse.
How do you reckon riders stay down a category so they can pick up wins against weaker riders? If thats the case they would get more points and become a 2nd cat surely? Then with new system they would have to win more races.
All this will do is make more third cat riders, not sure whats the point of that.

I'm not saying its happening. Personally I find it really strange that somebody would deliberately opt to stay at 3rd cat. That seems to be being given as the reason for the points change though. I guess I just find the proposed change frustrating because it takes what I consider to be a realistic goal and replaces it with something that I have no chance of achieving because I just don't have the time to race as much as I would need to get 100 points. I guess if they are changing the points awarded to 3/4 races then it might work, but people seem to be suggesting less points for 3/4 circuit races not more. Given that the only midweek races I can do are circuit races, I would have to win pretty much the entire Hog Hill summer series to step up a category (by way of example). Weekend racing is a big ask at the moment due ti family commitments etc. It just seems to penalise people who aren't able to commit all their spare time to road racing, regardless of how strong they might actually be. Apologies for the rambling response, I guess I'm just bitter that my target for next season looks like slipping away before the season even starts!

Tom Butcher

Even riding open road at the weekend it wouldn't be easy. As examples you'd have to win 3 Regional A races - so against 2nd cats - plus a midweek circuit race - to move up. If you were riding 3/4s then you'd have to win 7 Regional Bs.

Mind you where there isn't much 4ths only racing achieving 3rd cat would become more of a target - maybe take over from 2nd cat. 25 points in 3/4 races which would be that much harder because you'd have riders who would be 2nd cats now still in 3rd. So you could argue the challenge would remain the same just that it'd be going from 4th to 3rd rather than 3rd to 2nd. If they do get passed I'd like to see it possible to go back down to 4th as with 3rd being that much tougher I think a lot of people would be getting stuck in a category they couldn't really be competitive in.

jibberjim

Tom Butcher wrote:

Even riding open road at the weekend it wouldn't be easy.

It all depends if you see the ranking system as a way to get races against people of a similar standard, or if you see it as a way of keeping score.

For me an aim of "winning a race" or "top 3 in 5 races" etc. would make much better goals for a season than "upgrade to 2nd cat", with the cat upgrading simply coming along as part of racing against the right people.

walsht1105

jibberjim wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

Even riding open road at the weekend it wouldn't be easy.

It all depends if you see the ranking system as a way to get races against people of a similar standard, or if you see it as a way of keeping score.

For me an aim of "winning a race" or "top 3 in 5 races" etc. would make much better goals for a season than "upgrade to 2nd cat", with the cat upgrading simply coming along as part of racing against the right people.

You have hit the nail on the head, a change in category comes as you progress so the goal shouldn't really be around getting a license it should be about winning races. I moved up to 2nd cat this year, I didn't get a win so I'm quite disappointed. I'd like to move up to 1st cat next season as it's a sign of progression but I'd be far happier winning a road race and getting some good results and not move up to 1st cat, than scrapping as many points together just to do it (I say this now but sure my mind will change should I get near the goal).

IMO and IME getting 40 points through road racing alone is not an easy task, getting 40 points through crits and road racing is going to be a lot easier when only 15 people are turning up for your local mid week crit. You can't fluke 40 points through only RR'ing it requires consistent results, someone that isn't of a 2nd cat standard will not be able to fluke a win in a 2/3/4 RR, nor can you fluke 3 wins in 3/4 RR.

So the problems highlighted by this thread are -

1. Some people move up to quickly
2. Some people stop racing because they don't want to move up
3. The jump from 3/4 to E12 is massive, especially when the Pro/full timers turn up

1. Split crit, track, road points - meaning that each rider has to prove themself in the given discipline
2. Split crit, track, road points - this means that those riders can race all disciplines and results in one wont affect the other, if someone is getting 40 points in through RR they should be moved up to 2nd cat.
3. Stop pro/full timers riding with the amateurs - Give them more premier calendar events and allow the top amateurs entry if there are available spaces. This will help stop the jump being so big.

My experience comes from riding in the NW, where the CDNW RR circuits are all pretty tough apart from about 3 flatter circuits. You can't consistently fluke results on those cricuits. If there is a 3rd cat rider doing just RR and needs to stop racing because they are close to 40 points in the NW then they there is no reason why they should be extended to 100 points so they can race more and batter their less opponents, just to stop at 99 points til next season.

Like you said Jim category upgrade is seen as a reward, or gives bragging rights. I'm guilty of thinking this way as well, but ultimately it's just a handicap system like in golf. Because you play off scratch in golf it suggests your a good golfer, but lots of people take their handicap from an 'easy courses' just to get theirs lower (for bragging rights). When scratch golfer is consistently getting beaten by players with a bigger handicap then them.. wheres the bragging rights then? So really the person playing the system to get a lower handicap is shooting themselves in the foot - which is their own fault. But the person playing the system getting a handicap which is too generous for them is playing with an unfair advantage - which is not right.

Pross

Categories are strange in any case. Since I started racing again I have only done 3 races in the last 2 seasons, a 3/4 road race, a 4th only crit and a 2/3/4 road race. Of those the best I rode was in the 2/3/4 race as despite about a third of the small starting field being 2nd cat it was a much steadier race which suited me more than the 3/4 or 4 only races where the pace is up and down all the time.

ju5t1n

This proposal appears to have been made on the assumption that some 3rd cats stop racing because they don't want to move up a category. But is there actually any evidence that this is happening on a large scale? Or is it just anecdotal? Sure, there may be a few, but I don’t know of any, and I can’t believe that it’s a big enough problem to justify a change to the rules.

okgo

I know a couple, but agree its not a big big problem I don't think, I'd say there are a few riders that probably do the same in 2nd cat too, but doubt there are loads. And with the crit points being cut down, that should help that issue.

racingcondor

One of the things mentioned is strong inexperienced riders moving up too quickly.

Surely the best way to fix that is to add a US style 5th Cat. All you need to do then is run them as Go-Races (or 4/5 or 3/4/5 races) and require 5 races completed to move up to a 4th Cat licence (US system is 10 races if I remember correctly).

People have all sorts of reasons for not wanting to move up, changing the threshold doesn't fix the problem, it just moves it. I think the best way to fix the problem is to offer more races for 2nd Cat riders that aren't E/1/2 where they're being hammered by Elite riders from the start (2/3/4 races would make sense, especially run as Reg B or Reg A Circuit).

okgo

Or just turn cat 4 into what you just said, having said that though, the general riding I saw in crits in my one race as a 4th was not THAT much worse than the 3rds, however it has been noticeably better now I ride with more 2nd cat riders. But many people have said it shouldn't be about points when moving from 3rd to 4th, I would agree with that. Potentially I could have done my one crit, got to 3rd cat then entered a road race in the spring with a load of elite riders and because I had not got a clue about what I was doing I could have caused a pile up (or anyone could, hypothetical obviously) as I'd only had 40 mins bunch riding experience to my name!

racingcondor

You should see some of the cases of testosterone poisoning at Hillingdon then. I've raced a lot of 3/4 crits and I think there is a difference, less in fitness and more in focus perhaps (that said the only punch up I've seen was during the sprint in an E/1/2 race!).

The reason I'd add a new category is that around London every weekend race is sold out as it is. Squeezing more people into 3rd Cat would limit your opportunities to mix up the categories a little while the option of running 2/3 races means at least you have a filter that suggests everyone has met the minimum fitness requirement not to be dropped 5 minutes in (i.e. at least be able to make the 2nd Cat's work for the points).

DavidJB

racingcondor wrote:

You should see some of the cases of testosterone poisoning at Hillingdon then. I've raced a lot of 3/4 crits and I think there is a difference, less in fitness and more in focus perhaps (that said the only punch up I've seen was during the sprint in an E/1/2 race!).

The reason I'd add a new category is that around London every weekend race is sold out as it is. Squeezing more people into 3rd Cat would limit your opportunities to mix up the categories a little while the option of running 2/3 races means at least you have a filter that suggests everyone has met the minimum fitness requirement not to be dropped 5 minutes in (i.e. at least be able to make the 2nd Cat's work for the points).

Yeah but what about the rest of the country. Not everyone lives in London. People shouldn't be punished for not living in London just due to over subscription....although this is something I should imagine is going to be a massive problem next year in the lower cats!!

oldhairylegs

Seems to me that they are fiddling with something that isn't really broken.

It would be much better to spend time and effort on getting riders to go through some sort of race training programme before giving out race licences. This might help to address the real issue of guys racing who are a danger to themselves and everyone else around them through a lack of understanding of how to race safely in a bunch.

mamba80

oldhairylegs wrote:

Seems to me that they are fiddling with something that isn't really broken.

It would be much better to spend time and effort on getting riders to go through some sort of race training programme before giving out race licences. This might help to address the real issue of guys racing who are a danger to themselves and everyone else around them through a lack of understanding of how to race safely in a bunch.

+1 on this.
Also, it is not BC that put on races, it is clubs and volunteers, so statements like "BC should put on more 4th cat races" show a complete misunderstanding of how races are organised, put them on your selves if that is what you want.

racingcondor

DavidJB wrote:

racingcondor wrote:

The reason I'd add a new category is that around London every weekend race is sold out as it is.

Yeah but what about the rest of the country. Not everyone lives in London. People shouldn't be punished for not living in London just due to over subscription....although this is something I should imagine is going to be a massive problem next year in the lower cats!!

I'm not sure that just adding a '5 races and you're in' rule would punish people outside London all that much. Yes, it might take longer to get the races under your belt but the idea is to ensure that everyone has a minimum amount of pack time before they race in bigger groups and with higher Cat's (i.e. people who can put them way beyond their comfort zone where their riding goes to pot).

I'm also all for 'training' races where you have a couple of experienced racers ride with the bunch for 40 minutes (or so) talking people through it and offering advice when someone does something naive. The problem with that of course is that since it's volunteer run and you're asking experienced racers to give up a weekend of racing to teach for free (although that could probably be remedied with free league membership or something).

Tom Butcher

Although in most areas 4th cats mostly race 3/4s or 2/3/4s anyway - so it doesn't really achieve anything unless they are also going to insist you can't ride with 3rd cats as a 4th cat - which would be a huge change and unless the race scene changes drastically would punish people outside of London. So at face value it is a very London centric proposal.

racingcondor

Fair enough then really, it sounds like a more locally appropriate solution is needed.

Worth asking, do the smaller race leagues have a problem with dangerous inexperienced riders? If not then I'm looking for possible solutions to non-problems anyway.

Assuming it is a more London centric issue the answer could just be to run the first two of each London Crit series with a couple of nominated riders (of appropriate experience and different coloured race numbers or some other identifier) as guides who spend the first 40 mins talking people through it. Obviously it means looking for more volunteers but pretty much any solution is going to add work for someone.

It does seem a little odd how currently anyone can turn up to a road race but to ride track you're looking at weeks of induction sessions.

Tom Dean

I don't think it's a problem everywhere in London! I did nearly every 3/4 at Hog Hill this year and only saw a couple of minor incidents, no reason to think those were down to inexperience either.

Personally I think they should cobble the straight at Hillingdon to break the races up a bit.

ju5t1n

Tom Dean wrote:

Personally I think they should cobble the straight at Hillingdon to break the races up a bit.

Good idea. Or snipers with paintball guns

fish156

ju5t1n wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

Personally I think they should cobble the straight at Hillingdon to break the races up a bit.

Good idea. Or snipers with paintball guns

The locals don't mess about with paintballs. One group even sent their dog across the track as the bunch came through. Think the dog came through unscathed. Can't say the same for the riders.

DavidJB

I've not seen this mentioned anywhere but this forum. Can we have a link to the source?

Tom Butcher

Not sure if the proposals are on the internet anywhere David - I got it as a pdf with an email.