100 points for 2nd cat ?

Tom Butcher

Proposed by the Southern Region so could be in the regulations next season.

Good or bad idea ? Personally I think 40 points (as it is now) is enough - it's not as if we are over run with 2nd cats.

Their argument is that some riders now stop racing to avoid becoming 2nd cat - but if they are doing that then it can only be because either there aren't as many 2nd cat races or else the jump in class is significant. Making it harder to achieve 2nd cat is only going to make both of those situations worse.

Comments ?

DavidJB

Tom Butcher wrote:

Proposed by the Southern Region so could be in the regulations next season.

Good or bad idea ? Personally I think 40 points (as it is now) is enough - it's not as if we are over run with 2nd cats.

Their argument is that some riders now stop racing to avoid becoming 2nd cat - but if they are doing that then it can only be because either there aren't as many 2nd cat races or else the jump in class is significant. Making it harder to achieve 2nd cat is only going to make both of those situations worse.

Comments ?

Terrible idea.

When a person is moving up to 2nd cat they start dominating races...this would have the overall effect of making 3/4 races a lot harder. Mind you I was actually upset moving to 2nd because I was winning and getting 2nds and stuff in 3/4s over a 1 1/2 month period before moving up.

What would actually be a bit better if there were lots more 2/3/4 crits around and not just 2/3/4 road races then it solves the problems of people moving up because a) they can ride in the races they want and b) they don't get pummelled by elites when they move to ride e/1/2.

I moved up at the end of the this season and rode a few e/1/2 races and while they were really hard work they weren't as hard as I was expecting so hopefully will be able to do something next season after a good winters training!

ju5t1n

I’m not in favour.

If someone is good enough to race as a second cat then they should race as a second cat. That’s the purpose of the category system … you race against people of a similar ability to yourself.

Also, it’s difficult to accumulate large numbers points in 3rd cat races – even a road race win only bags you 15 points. So there would be a lot of very good riders staying in 3rd cat for a lot longer.

Average speeds in 3/4 races are already high enough to be a barrier to entry to many who are new to racing. Unless there are significantly more 4th cat only races added to the calendar then I think this change would put new riders off.

bigmat

I can't see me ever making 100 points at 3rd cat, I just don't have time to race enough and the points on offer for 3rd cat races are too low (I guess you can always do 2/3 races). 40 seems about right as far as I can see. What kind of pussy deliberately stays a level below his own ability just so he can pick up wins against weaker opposition? That's just pathetic.

jibberjim

Doesn't the full proposal also increase the number of points required for 3rd cat? So it's very much about ensuring races remain at an ability category to ensure fair races. It seems to me that 3rd cat races are becoming more negative as the strong riders leave too soon, making the progression through the categories better, with more appropriate racing at a particular level.

Tom Butcher

By South Region
Technical Regulation 6.2.2 line 2 :
Delete ‘10’ and insert ‘25’
Note : The current level of points means that a very inexperienced rider can, after only one win,
be promoted. The new level of points will ensure that some experience is gained before being
able to compete with higher category riders.
17
By South Region
Technical Regulation 6.2.3 line 2 :
Delete ‘40’ and insert ‘100’
Note : Many club riders are content to complete their racing within the 3rd category and are
disinclined to seek promotion. A threshold of only 40 points leads to people actively finding
ways to avoid being placed, and not being able to ride races at a level comfortable to them and
their available time for preparation. Many riders now stop racing as the season progresses to
avoid being promoted, which cannot be correct or good for the sport. A higher threshold will not
affect those riders with capability or desire for promotion.
18
By South Region
Technical Regulation 6.2.3.1 line 2 :
Delete ‘25’ and insert ‘50’
Note : Many club riders are content to complete their racing within the 3rd category, and are
disinclined to seek promotion. A threshold of only 40 points leads to people actively finding
ways to avoid being placed, and not being able to ride races at a level comfortable to them and
their available time for preparation. Many riders now stop racing as the season progresses to
avoid being promoted, which cannot be correct or good for the sport. A higher threshold will not
affect those riders with capability or desire for promotion.
19
By South Region
Technical Regulation 6.2.5.1
Delete and insert :
“To any member who is a member of a UCI registered trade team, or is a member of
the Great Britain Cycling Team squad. To any first category rider finishing a full season
in the top fifteen of the National Rankings for 1st category riders.”
Note : This is a proposal to ensure that anyone with a licence carrying the category ‘elite’,
really is amongst the elite level of riders, which is not always the case today.
20
By South Region
Technical Regulation 4.7.4
Insert :
“Provisional Licences: When a Provisional Licence is issued with a membership, it shall
only be valid for 5 races. Following this a full licence is required.”
Note : The provisional licence is being used as a loophole by some riders in an effort to remain
in a low category and register any ranking points, yet still be able to take prizes, without actually
purchasing a standard racing licence.

jibberjim

BigMat wrote:

I can't see me ever making 100 points at 3rd cat, I just don't have time to race enough and the points on offer for 3rd cat races are too low (I guess you can always do 2/3 races).

Another change for next year is that midweek crits will always be 10 points for the win, even E/1/2's - not sure if that's national or just down here - so there's even less points available. Hillingdon has been like that for some time of course, but it's a big reduction in points for the midweek crit monsters at Hog Hill and Cyclopark.

Tom Butcher

I think you have to ask the question - is it too easy to move up as it is ?

Maybe the answer to that depends in part on what part of the country you live in and what kind of racing you do and what kind of rider you are. Round here I don't know anyone I'd call a cheap 2nd cat - they are all strong riders - I just can't see the need to raise the bar further when there are another 2 categories above that anyway. The situation may be different in London where there is a lot more circuit racing all year round and points are perhaps easier to come by.

Not that it affects me I do 90% LVRC anyway so my chances of getting 40 points were pretty slim and most of the local open road events are already 2/3/4.

DavidJB

Tom,

Could you provide a link to this proposal?

Thanks

LegendLust

So what is the jump up to 1st cat going to be points wise?

I know plenty of very good riders good enough to be 1st cats who get to around 98 points then retire for the season. Reason is moving up to 1st cat means more travelling as there aren't as many E/1 races in their region.

Does mean the 3/4 racing will be harder. To compensate then surely BC must put on more 4th cat only events for the beginners. Perhaps increase the amount of points needed to be a 3rd cat or have 3rd cat only races or 2/3 races and 4th cat only?

okgo

They need to think about sorting the issues at the other end of the scale I reckon, if you make 1st cat from 2nd, then you then have to race with elites every single race, which surely is a bigger joke than whatever goes on at the entry level.

I thought 40 points was about right, its enough that you will have to get a few good results in a fair few races to get there, I suppose it depends on the rider, someone scraping a point here and there in 3rd only to make 2nd cat will probably not score 25 points the year at the higher level to keep a 2nd cat ticket anyway?

However I do agree there are a few people that do stop racing to make sure they don't make 2nd, its far more pleasing for some people to be able to boss a 3/4 than struggle in a 2/3 I guess. I still think the issue is that 2nd cat is too big as a category, but its like that because 1st cat is now a pointless category, apart from saying you managed it.

ju5t1n

This is the current distribution of riders among the categories (borrowed from another thread - courtesy of jibberjim)

E 199
1st 251
2nd 1231
3rd 3744
4th 6217

It seems about right to me

displacedaussie

The current points system (and the number of riders in each category) seems pretty balanced to me.

It seems a little strange to want to change the rules just for the sake of the sandbaggers, especially when the rule changes might have a significant negative impact on all the people trying as hard as they can to get upgraded.

okgo

I reckon if there was an incentive for 2nd cats to be promoted to 1st cat then there would be more people in 1st than there are now...

walsht1105

Doesn't really make any sense to make it any harder by increasing the points required, if you want to make it harder to move up categories just separate crit points from road points.

By increasing the number of points required you are rewarding the people that DON'T want to move up a category but want to carry on racing with riders they can dominate. All this means is those avoiding the move up get to race more before having to stop. So it means the riders that are true to their category and are racing for league points (not BC points) are going to struggle more.

jibberjim

walsht1105 wrote:

By increasing the number of points required you are rewarding the people that DON'T want to move up a category but want to carry on racing with riders they can dominate.

Except that lots of the stronger riders that previously would've been 2nd cats would still be 3rd, so those that didn't want to upgrade wouldn't be dominating any more.

I think the more than one race to leave 4th cat, and the more than 3-4 races to leave 2nd cat is a good thing, there's lots of riders with plenty of strength who can dominate 3rd cat races but never need to learn how to race against people of a similar ability. When you can just ride around neutralize every move and sprint for points without a care in the world - you don't learn to race. And that's the reality of 3rd cat races around here.

walsht1105

jibberjim wrote:

walsht1105 wrote:

By increasing the number of points required you are rewarding the people that DON'T want to move up a category but want to carry on racing with riders they can dominate.

Except that lots of the stronger riders that previously would've been 2nd cats would still be 3rd, so those that didn't want to upgrade wouldn't be dominating any more.

But then your just delaying the inevitable, the strongest will eventually move up but those that DON'T want to move up can race more at the level they want. The way I see it is that there are people that chase points, those that avoid getting points and those that just move up as natural progession.

The only ones that are 'playing' the system are those that avoid getting points.. Increasing the points required to move up benefits them which I think is wrong. Separate road points and crit points, it is harder to consistently get results in road races with 40-80 riders competing than it is with as little as 20 competing a 1hour crit. That will stop people moving up when they aren't 'at the right level' yet.

DavidJB

Races are bad enough at the end of the season with points chasers. People taking insane risks to get 8th...this will make it worse.

oldwelshman

BigMat wrote:

I can't see me ever making 100 points at 3rd cat, I just don't have time to race enough and the points on offer for 3rd cat races are too low (I guess you can always do 2/3 races). 40 seems about right as far as I can see. What kind of pussy deliberately stays a level below his own ability just so he can pick up wins against weaker opposition? That's just pathetic.

What an arsehole, think before you write.
What about a vet that could be 60 years old, wins two medals at world masters and UK champs and gets almost enough to get 1st cat? Do you think a 60 yearold would want to ride as a 1st cat?
I know a couple of guys that dont race bcf becuase they are a second cat technically.
Last year I had 185 points as second cat and alsmost made 1st cat which I did not want to as it limits races I can do for training to 1st cat races, so that makes me a pussy also?

displacedaussie

I don't think most people realise the kind of points that can be earned in those masters races (and on the track). Perhaps those points should be treated differently?

lyn1

ju5t1n wrote:

I’m not in favour.

If someone is good enough to race as a second cat then they should race as a second cat. That’s the purpose of the category system … you race against people of a similar ability to yourself. Also, it’s difficult to accumulate large numbers points in 3rd cat races – even a road race win only bags you 15 points. So there would be a lot of very good riders staying in 3rd cat for a lot longer.

Average speeds in 3/4 races are already high enough to be a barrier to entry to many who are new to racing. Unless there are significantly more 4th cat only races added to the calendar then I think this change would put new riders off.

If that’s the purpose then it fails, for many of the reasons highlighted in the thread e.g. some riders doing shed loads of over rewarded chippers and moving into cats. they cannot handle (some on ego trips others because they like to race regularly ), others avoiding racing and remaining in a cat e.g. to pot hunt, to avoid heavy travel with fewer races, avoid influence of track points. There is also a suggestion that 1st cat. has no “value”. The only way it will work is if those in a given category are homogeneous and races are category specific, but that is not viable. As soon as riders start to manipulate their cat. and cats. are combined (e.g. E,1,2) there are wide disparities. It would be far easier to scrap the points system, and all the unnecessary work of providing new licences, doing all the calculations and producing “rankings” that are often a joke. Just categorise races and restrict entry to some categories. So the tier 1 races would be by invitation to teams only and could include around 20-25 or so top road & crit. races. At the other end the beginner’s races could be restricted to new entrants e.g. license held for less than 2 years. It probably needs a couple of intermediate categories with suitable restrictions and controlled prize pots to avoid pot hunters. Restrictions could then apply to prevent riders dropping down too far or riding up too far, with the occasional BC dispensation for those with “exceptional” results. It would then be up to riders to decide where to ride providing they fulfil the requirements for that cat. of race.
The problem with tinkering with the current points system is that in addressing some of the flaws, you merely create problems elswhere.

Tom Butcher

As with most suggestions there is some merit in that. However as soon as you start introducing restrictions as to who can race in what event I think you are back at the category system we have now. How else do you restrict entry to certain categories of races ?

The only real alternative to categories is just having a free for all - enter what you want and let the race organisers select the field. I've seen some suggest that and again I can see it has some advantages but again I think the disadvantages are such that it's not an advance on what we have now.

Going back to riders who avoid getting points to move up categories. I take OldWelshmans point about avoiding first cat - especially if the points have been gained through Masters or track events - we can all understand that nobody wants to limit themselves to racing with Elites when they will have no chance. That's a bit different though to riders who avoid getting 2nd cat - I have to agree with whoever said what kind of pussy would do that because there are loads of 2/3/4 races to do and the jump whilst significant shouldn't mean anyone getting 40 points as a 3rd is outclassed.

amaferanga

Around here the disincentive to moving from 3rd Cat to 2nd Cat is for most probably that there are fewer local races you can do without doing E/1/2's. The step up from a hilly 2/3/4 race to a hilly E/1/2 race when you might be racing against the GB development riders and riders from the likes of Raleigh and Rapha is HUGE. So as a decent-but-not-exceptional 2nd Cat you have a choice between a long drive some weekends to find a 2/3/4 or getting destroyed in a local E/1/2 race. And while getting dropped after a lap or 2 might be ok and character building occasionally, if it happens a lot it can be pretty soul destroying (speaking partly from experience there).

walsht1105

I think if you separate crit, track, road points (i.e. so your license shows category for crit, track, road) and restrict full timers/pros from racing with the true amatuers the problems will be solved. There should be the option for an amatuer to race with the full timers/pros but not vice versa. The only problem left then would be supply and demand, most likely that the Pro/Full timers don't have enough races to do locally, but you would assume if you're full time/pro you would be prepared travel because that is part of a job.

Tom Butcher

amaferanga wrote:

Around here the disincentive to moving from 3rd Cat to 2nd Cat is for most probably that there are fewer local races you can do without doing E/1/2's. The step up from a hilly 2/3/4 race to a hilly E/1/2 race when you might be racing against the GB development riders and riders from the likes of Raleigh and Rapha is HUGE. So as a decent-but-not-exceptional 2nd Cat you have a choice between a long drive some weekends to find a 2/3/4 or getting destroyed in a local E/1/2 race. And while getting dropped after a lap or 2 might be ok and character building occasionally, if it happens a lot it can be pretty soul destroying (speaking partly from experience there).

All the East Mids league races are going to be 2/3/4 - there's plenty of 2/3/4 at Mallory and Darley - I know these aren't right on your doorstep but they aren't a million miles away - probably mostly within 90 minutes of Sheffield? All the West Mids league are 2/3/4 too.

lyn1

Tom Butcher wrote:

As with most suggestions there is some merit in that. However as soon as you start introducing restrictions as to who can race in what event I think you are back at the category system we have now. How else do you restrict entry to certain categories of races ?

I do not have all the answers Tom, it's an idea for discussion, but it seems better to consider alternatives rather than tinker with a flawed system that involves unnecessary complexity, significant time and resource to manage and still creates loads of argument. We can’t even agree on what constitutes the cat 2 points boundary I would suggest points are unnecessary as races can be categorised and suitably described. Riders then choose where to race within some simple limits, based on race description. Keep track separate. Possibly 3 licenses...

Team.. riders registered for Tier 1 races
Open.. All who are not in other 2
Novice...(first 2 years)

BC to consider dispensations in "exceptional cases"

Eg...needs more thought and info. But along the lines:

Events
Tier 1 Teams only by invitation (top 20-25 races) Premiers & Tour Series is like that now
Tier 2 Longer road and faster crit events.. includes some Team and Open riders, no Novice riders
Tier 3 Shorter road and less fast crits, includes Open and Novice but no Team riders
Tier 4 Beginners/novices..restricted

Any prize money in Tier 2-4 should be spread well down the field to avoid people riding down to fill their pockets.

amaferanga

Tom Butcher wrote:

All the East Mids league races are going to be 2/3/4 - there's plenty of 2/3/4 at Mallory and Darley - I know these aren't right on your doorstep but they aren't a million miles away - probably mostly within 90 minutes of Sheffield? All the West Mids league are 2/3/4 too.

There are races if you're prepared to drive quite a way, which some folk aren't I guess. I was really just thinking about road races, not crits (Darely Moor just doesn't appeal to me). I guess what we miss in South Yorkshire is a midweek BC series. Everyone does the NMRRL TLI on Thursday nights, which is good training, but no good if you're after BC points.

I'm moving over the Pennines soon anyway so what does or doesn't develop around here won't really affect me.....

Pross

I'd start by having reduced points in circuit races. I suspect many of those that move up 'before their time' do so as a result of racing frequently in closed road circuit races therefore either reduce the points for regional and national B circuit races. I still find it odd that the winner of a stage in a regional A stage race only gets the same points as the winner of a regional B circuit race. I would also make the move from 4th cat to 3rd cat an experience based system rather than points based with new riders having to complete say 5 races and be signed off in each by the comms as having ridden safely (I acknowledge that this won't make much realistic difference as 3rd cats still often race with the 4th cat riders but hopefully having an onus on racing safely rather than inexperienced riders sprinting for a point or two will increase safety).

jibberjim

Finding promoters willing to promote Nat C 1/2/3 races would help too, but I guess the parts of the country that can't promote 2/3 or 2/3/4 due to numbers aren't that likely to find any incentive to.

Tom Butcher

amaferanga wrote:

Around here the disincentive to moving from 3rd Cat to 2nd Cat is for most probably that there are fewer local races you can do without doing E/1/2's. The step up from a hilly 2/3/4 race to a hilly E/1/2 race when you might be racing against the GB development riders and riders from the likes of Raleigh and Rapha is HUGE. So as a decent-but-not-exceptional 2nd Cat you have a choice between a long drive some weekends to find a 2/3/4 or getting destroyed in a local E/1/2 race. And while getting dropped after a lap or 2 might be ok and character building occasionally, if it happens a lot it can be pretty soul destroying (speaking partly from experience there).

Maybe another example of how a system that suits one area doesn't suit another then ? I'm in Derby so not that far away and all the East Mids and West Mids league races are open road and 234 - but whereas I might have to drive between 45 and 90 minutes tops to a West Mids league race I suppose from S Yorks you add another hour on top which I agree is getting to be a bit of a trip. Round here I'd say 2/3/4s are far more common than 3/4s - and 4ths only just about non-existent on the open road. 4th cat was pretty meaning less but I think they have some 4ths only at Mallory now.

Jim - is the Nat C a new category - I wasn't aware you were allowed to promote 1/2/3 events under the rules as they stood.

jibberjim

Tom Butcher wrote:

Jim - is the Nat C a new category - I wasn't aware you were allowed to promote 1/2/3 events under the rules as they stood.

It's an old category that disappeared for a bit I believe but came back this year - in the 2011 minutes you'll see
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/ ... inutes.pdf

Technical Regulation 6.3 - Event Classification
Introduce classification for ‘National C’ races and re-number subsequent clauses :
6.3.1.3 National C - open to senior male 1st, 2nd and 3rd category riders, final year Junior male 1st, 2nd and 3rd category riders and Senior female Elite, 1st and 2nd category riders. Where the minimum distanc e for a road race is not achieved, the race shall be open to all Junior male 1st, 2nd and 3rd category riders and all Junior female 1st and 2nd category riders only.
6.3.1.3.1 The minimum distance for a road race shall be 100 km.

CARRIED

however I never saw anything come of it with an actual promotion.