Zone 2 training....do short periods work as well?
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Wasn't this disproven some time ago?vs wrote:Chapple (2006, pg.9) states: when I review the fitness data for athletes, I often find that their bodies burn too much carbohydrate at easy to moderate levels. In some cases they burn 60% carbohydrates at even the easiest effort levels. These athletes have a history of training at high intensities frequently.
To support your body's ability to ride harder longer, you need to teach it to spare carbohydrates. To develop your body's fat-burning, you need to ride slower. In other words you need to ride slower, to get faster.
Chapple, T. (2006) Base Building for Cyclists. Velo Press. Boulder, CO, USA.CAPTAIN BUCKFAST'S CYCLING TIPS - GUARANTEED TO WORK! 1 OUT OF 10 RACING CYCLISTS AGREE!0 -
Herbsman wrote:
Wasn't this disproven some time ago?vs wrote:Chapple (2006, pg.9) states: when I review the fitness data for athletes, I often find that their bodies burn too much carbohydrate at easy to moderate levels. In some cases they burn 60% carbohydrates at even the easiest effort levels. These athletes have a history of training at high intensities frequently.
To support your body's ability to ride harder longer, you need to teach it to spare carbohydrates. To develop your body's fat-burning, you need to ride slower. In other words you need to ride slower, to get faster.
Chapple, T. (2006) Base Building for Cyclists. Velo Press. Boulder, CO, USA.
By who?0 -
I don't know, that's why I'm asking a question rather than stating a fact.vs wrote:Herbsman wrote:
Wasn't this disproven some time ago?vs wrote:Chapple (2006, pg.9) states: when I review the fitness data for athletes, I often find that their bodies burn too much carbohydrate at easy to moderate levels. In some cases they burn 60% carbohydrates at even the easiest effort levels. These athletes have a history of training at high intensities frequently.
To support your body's ability to ride harder longer, you need to teach it to spare carbohydrates. To develop your body's fat-burning, you need to ride slower. In other words you need to ride slower, to get faster.
Chapple, T. (2006) Base Building for Cyclists. Velo Press. Boulder, CO, USA.
By who?
The only study I can think of at the moment is one mentioned by Joe Friel on his blog: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8028502 although there is a very small sample size on this oneThe impact of two different modes of training on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism was investigated in young adults who were subjected to either a 20-week endurance-training (ET) program (eight men and nine women) or a 15-week high-intensity intermittent-training (HIIT) program (five men and five women). The mean estimated total energy cost of the ET program was 120.4 MJ, whereas the corresponding value for the HIIT program was 57.9 MJ. Despite its lower energy cost, the HIIT program induced a more pronounced reduction in subcutaneous adiposity compared with the ET program. When corrected for the energy cost of training, the decrease in the sum of six subcutaneous skinfolds induced by the HIIT program was ninefold greater than by the ET program. Muscle biopsies obtained in the vastus lateralis before and after training showed that both training programs increased similarly the level of the citric acid cycle enzymatic marker. On the other hand, the activity of muscle glycolytic enzymes was increased by the HIIT program, whereas a decrease was observed following the ET program. The enhancing effect of training on muscle 3-hydroxyacyl coenzyme A dehydrogenase (HADH) enzyme activity, a marker of the activity of beta-oxidation, was significantly greater after the HIIT program. In conclusion, these results reinforce the notion that for a given level of energy expenditure, vigorous exercise favors negative energy and lipid balance to a greater extent than exercise of low to moderate intensity. Moreover, the metabolic adaptations taking place in the skeletal muscle in response to the HIIT program appear to favor the process of lipid oxidation.
...but I've seen others that also state that high intensity exercise increases fat metabolism more than low intensity exercise.CAPTAIN BUCKFAST'S CYCLING TIPS - GUARANTEED TO WORK! 1 OUT OF 10 RACING CYCLISTS AGREE!0 -
Interesting research here...
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 295.x/full
This research shows fat AND carbohydrate utilisation increases with intensity UP TO A POINT but at that point, fat utilisation decreases. I also think a key finding is that this drop in fat use is because of
..."either by a decrease in free carnitine availability or by a decrease in pH"
so I'd like to understand how riding lots of low intensity miles suddenly makes your body able to change its pH or create new resources of carnitine (or stop the natural reduction in muscle carnitine that comes from higher intensity exercise). Fat utilisation decreases because of chemical processes so how can these chemical processes can be 'trained'?
Whats also interesting is the point that fat utilisation went down markedly was at 75% of Wmax, which for the test subjects means 75% of 413w, or approx 300w efforts. Thats well above many people's threshold power so means that riding at tempo and sub-threshold efforts wouldnt see any less fat utilisation than tooling around for hours at much lower intensities.Your Past is Not Your Potential...0 -
Whats also interesting is the point that fat utilisation went down markedly was at 75% of Wmax, which for the test subjects means 75% of 413w, or approx 300w efforts. Thats well above many people's threshold power so means that riding at tempo and sub-threshold efforts wouldnt see any less fat utilisation than tooling around for hours at much lower intensities.
Wmax = Workload Max; could this also be described as maximum heart rate?
If so, 75% max HR would be where you would expect a zone 2 ride to be ridden.
That's well below many people's threshold power so means that riding at tempo and sub-threshold efforts would see less fat utilisation than tooling around for hours at much lower intensities.
or am I missing something here :?:0 -
its not 75% max HR - in the article Wmax is the result of a ramp test and is totally different. Its effectively power output at the end of a test so is in NO WAY related to 75% max HR...
Quick look at the references and this is what they say about Wmax
The test protocol of the actual study was based on the individual Wref and started at 70% Wref for 5 min whereupon the work load was increased by 5% Wref every 2.5 min to exhaustion. The maximal work load attained (Wmax) was considered as the test performance
Therefore this is the max power output achieved right before exhaustion in this test. 75% of your max power output at exhaustion bears no resemblance to 75% of your HR, its probably more like 90% in my experience...Your Past is Not Your Potential...0 -
I'm not confused.bahzob wrote:Hm if Alex really did say this then it contradicts his opinion here that there is benefit in doing a 20 minute interval at less than FTP target so he seems a little confused.
Fitness is an integral of all that you do, not just one session.0 -
Yes.vs wrote:That's well below many people's threshold power so means that riding at tempo and sub-threshold efforts would see less fat utilisation than tooling around for hours at much lower intensities.
or am I missing something here :?:
Don't confuse what fuel substrate mix we use as being an indicator of what's good for us training wise.0 -
The best way to improve your utilisation of fats as fuel at any relative or absolute intensity, is to improve your threshold power and VO2max.vs wrote:Chapple (2006, pg.9) states: when I review the fitness data for athletes, I often find that their bodies burn too much carbohydrate at easy to moderate levels. In some cases they burn 60% carbohydrates at even the easiest effort levels. These athletes have a history of training at high intensities frequently.
To support your body's ability to ride harder longer, you need to teach it to spare carbohydrates. To develop your body's fat-burning, you need to ride slower. In other words you need to ride slower, to get faster.
Chapple, T. (2006) Base Building for Cyclists. Velo Press. Boulder, CO, USA.
There are many ways to do that, but riding slower than you are now isn't typically one of them.0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
The best way to improve your utilisation of fats as fuel at any relative or absolute intensity, is to improve your threshold power and VO2max.vs wrote:Chapple (2006, pg.9) states: when I review the fitness data for athletes, I often find that their bodies burn too much carbohydrate at easy to moderate levels. In some cases they burn 60% carbohydrates at even the easiest effort levels. These athletes have a history of training at high intensities frequently.
To support your body's ability to ride harder longer, you need to teach it to spare carbohydrates. To develop your body's fat-burning, you need to ride slower. In other words you need to ride slower, to get faster.
Chapple, T. (2006) Base Building for Cyclists. Velo Press. Boulder, CO, USA.
There are many ways to do that, but riding slower than you are now isn't typically one of them.
The forward to Base Building for Cyclists: "I met Thomas in 2002 and shortly thereafter invited him to join Ultrafit Associates, an association of like-minded endurance coaches I formed in 1992. As of this writing we have 34 members. I have personally selected only the best and brightest and trained each in my unique coaching methodology. What you will find in this book is a summary of the training concepts the Ultrafit coaches follow with the athletes they train. Thomas clearly describes here how to train during this crucial period of the year. Follow his teachings and you will start the season with a platform for excellent fitness." (Joe Friel, 2006)
You are saying that Thomas Chapple and, therefore Joe Friel, are simply wrong. Perhaps you could tell them to stop confusing matters.0 -
bahzob wrote:
I remain puzzled. What exactly does doing 5 hours of slow rides give as an exclusive benefit, that no other form of training provides? How do you measure these or know you are improving? Can you give any specific examples with numbers like I can?
First and foremost they are not slow, and done right a 5 hour ride will leave you just as tired as a 90 min Z3 ride, the longer ride will end up giving you a higher TSS, and hence fitness/training load, or whatever you want to call it. You can then actually do other training the following day, whereas to get a similar loading/TSS score doing shorter stuff you need to go f-ing hard for a longer duration than 90 mins, and you probably wouldn't be doing much the next day as you would need time to recover from that sort of effort.
I just don't like the build your FTP only approach, I think it is short sighted, and may not give you the deep down fitness that is required to prolong high levels of fitness for a complete season. As I have said you do need to work on your FTP, but it doesn't need to be a daily thing, and certainly not doing the same old session day in and day out.0 -
In my opinion there is no wrong or right until you know your athlete. You have many factors to take into account and I list below only some of them, in no particular order.
Athletes physiology, personality, age, cycling history, history in other sports, present health, past health, injury history, past & present fitness, job, stress levels, diet, motivation, constitution, time available, the events they wish to do well in, the date of those events, the equipment they will be using, where and in what conditions the major events will be held, their family & social & work responsibilities. Blood results (if possible). How the athlete responds to certain sessions, how the athlete responds to easy days or rest days, how the athlete responds to complete rest, Is the athlete the type who always holds back or the type who will always try to give a little bit more. Is the athletes constitution more brittle than their mind. Is the athletes constitution stronger than their mind. Do they perform well in the heat? Do they perform badly at certain times of the year or times of day? I could go on.
When you know your athlete then you can decide how best he or she should train. All coaches and scientists will have their own ideas and methods and advising a wide variety of athletes in the form of a book or online can only ever give very broad advice. Coaches will give the advice they have found works best for most in the broadest terms.
What would be the best possible training for one man who can do 25 miles in under 55 minutes might break and destroy a man who can do 25 miles in under 50 minutes. Training must be tailored to the individual.0 -
Spot on Trev, never a truer word been spoken.0
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No idea whether this has any validity or not. One of my mates is a keen triathlete, he'll fast for 12 hrs (normally overnight) and will then run at normal training pace to build his bodies ability to burn fat for energy. He's a strong believer that it works, especially with a morning cup of coffee!0
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vs wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
The best way to improve your utilisation of fats as fuel at any relative or absolute intensity, is to improve your threshold power and VO2max.vs wrote:Chapple (2006, pg.9) states: when I review the fitness data for athletes, I often find that their bodies burn too much carbohydrate at easy to moderate levels. In some cases they burn 60% carbohydrates at even the easiest effort levels. These athletes have a history of training at high intensities frequently.
To support your body's ability to ride harder longer, you need to teach it to spare carbohydrates. To develop your body's fat-burning, you need to ride slower. In other words you need to ride slower, to get faster.
Chapple, T. (2006) Base Building for Cyclists. Velo Press. Boulder, CO, USA.
There are many ways to do that, but riding slower than you are now isn't typically one of them.
The forward to Base Building for Cyclists: "I met Thomas in 2002 and shortly thereafter invited him to join Ultrafit Associates, an association of like-minded endurance coaches I formed in 1992. As of this writing we have 34 members. I have personally selected only the best and brightest and trained each in my unique coaching methodology. What you will find in this book is a summary of the training concepts the Ultrafit coaches follow with the athletes they train. Thomas clearly describes here how to train during this crucial period of the year. Follow his teachings and you will start the season with a platform for excellent fitness." (Joe Friel, 2006)
You are saying that Thomas Chapple and, therefore Joe Friel, are simply wrong. Perhaps you could tell them to stop confusing matters.
That's both a red herring as the paragraph has nothing to do with the issue in question of "fat burning" and even if it were relevant, it's a logical fallacy of the argument from authority genre.
All I am providing as information here is basic exercise physiology. I am not responsible for what other people write.0 -
I'd say that the ride as described is building FTP.SBezza wrote:First and foremost they are not slow, and done right a 5 hour ride will leave you just as tired as a 90 min Z3 ride, the longer ride will end up giving you a higher TSS, and hence fitness/training load, or whatever you want to call it.
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I just don't like the build your FTP only approach0 -
the prob that i found with bahzobs methods is that though you may have the numbers, it just doesnt build up the depth you need to do well in longer events, such as bigpickle found in the maratona - i got to the Giau before 11:00 so missed the heat the later riders endured and i did that by being able to ride well for the whole event, something i couldnt have done on 60 to 120 min rides of any intensity.
i just dont believe that there are too many short cuts in cycling
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The thing with rides like the Maratona is that they are often 60 minute efforts (the climbs) followed by a descent where you can rest, then another 60 minute effort. It's not like you're riding hard all the time. Whilst a bit of time in the saddle is worthwhile (mentally as much as anything), I'd say to replicate the climbs the turbo is the best way of doing so in Britain.0
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Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
I'd say that the ride as described is building FTP.SBezza wrote:First and foremost they are not slow, and done right a 5 hour ride will leave you just as tired as a 90 min Z3 ride, the longer ride will end up giving you a higher TSS, and hence fitness/training load, or whatever you want to call it.
<snip>
I just don't like the build your FTP only approach
I agree Alex, but reading on here you would believe you can only build FTP by doing dedicated FTP intensity sessions, rather than use an all round approach and build fitness and power by using a variety of different sessions.
I know when I go my best it is when my fitness is really good, and that normally corresponds with a high CTL, and you won't get a high CTL by doing 1 hour FTP level sessions all the time, well not what I call high anyhow. I do make time to do more that 6-8 hours a week when I need to however.0
