Phinney on pills etc
rick_chasey
Posts: 75,661
Comments
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I like those comments. Lots of sense too.
Surprised by it in a way but again, it may be just a handful involved, which isn't an issue.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Phinney has been a big grower on me, love his attitude. Good, clean, honest rider.0
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LeicesterLad wrote:Phinney has been a big grower on me, love his attitude. Good, clean, honest rider.
[Sharp intake of air through teeth]... They're the ones to watch out for!
I now only listen to pro riders who seem a bit suspicious and sneaky: that way, I'm already wary and when/if they turn out to be shown to be a wrong-un... I knew it!
Eyes set to the ready...
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LeicesterLad wrote:Phinney has been a big grower on me, love his attitude. Good, clean, honest rider.
I agree, and he has an intelligent take on things that goes past some of the anti-doping platitudes that get put out.
The finish bottles sound quite scary, i think there are defintely some issues that need to be addressed regarding rider health. Phinney is quite right about not racing if you are ill or have an injury. Chomping painkillers is a false economy.0 -
Nice bit of 'fresh air' but, he does contradict himself;
“The way I see it, if we are going to turn the page, then why don’t we write a whole new book? We can turn this sport into the absolute cleanest sport there is, if we do things right. So that is what I am trying to do.”
So what does his see as being acceptable? Phinney states that he’ll take drinks of coke in races and also gels with some caffeine in them, particularly before a time trial.
In what way is this last statement supporting his earlier (in the piece) cry of making even tighter controls and removing even pain killer use? If he'll use a gel with 'some caffeine' in it, surely he too will slide toward the quoted Maginot Line??
He says:
“It is the same thing with painkillers or something like Sudafed. If you wake up with a fever and you need to take some sort of painkillers to be racing, then you probably shouldn’t be racing in the first place and your team doctor should be worried about your health and send you home.”
Then says;
“Last year at the Vuelta when I was really suffering every day, and in the last couple of days I started to take a Tylenol here and there in a race. But I never felt it helped me,” he said. “It was kind of like a crutch…something I had that made me say, ‘maybe this will make me feel better.’
As i say nice fresh air but little substance, forgive the pun :roll:0 -
Contador is the Greatest0 -
Michael Barry was making a similar point about painkillers and sleeping pills in his NYT article
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/16/sport ... d=all&_r=0
'At home, we continue training, resting one or maybe two days a week. The off-season, when we can let our bodies rest and recover, is vanishing. Our time off the bike is limited to two weeks to a month, at the end of October and into November. When we are not at the races, we are often in training camps to maintain our fitness. To tolerate the races and the lifestyle, far too many riders rely on addictive sleeping pills and painkillers that are permitted but extremely strong. Team doctors hand them out without considering the long-term effects.'
I'd suggest that when you have both a 22 year old pro and and a 36 year old pro (irrespective of how some people might feel about Barry) expressing similar concerns, there's substance ('scuse the pun).0 -
It's an interesting topic - well done to Phinney for raising it (and good on him for his stance).
I'm wondering if this will broadened in the mainstream media to start looking more closely at the way in which the pharmaceutical industry peddle their products to the sporting audience - and the insidious way in which folk can slip into inadvertent pill-popping (athletes and public). Phinney's comments are particularly apposite at this time of year, when people start getting sniffles and all that. If you speak to anyone within the drug companies (certainly the PR/marketing side, anyway), they'll tell you how massively controlled and regulated the industry is and how difficult it is to publicise a product - even if it's efficacy is proven. But they will only usually work in one small sector of a massive business which is, let's not forget, driven by profit: they will often be evangelical about their own product, but less concerned with the wider culture of drug reliance/dependency. Obviously, with the vast majority of the pharma industry being made up of private companies, those profits are what drives research and development - but it's not difficult to see that "conflicts of interest" are going to arise when you get a "Profit Vs Ethics Interface" (especially, when you are dealing with the vulnerable: i.e. the ill, diseased and sniffly)
This was an interesting move by GlaxoSmithKline, this year, I thought
http://www.pharmaceutical-technology.co ... aboratory/
And in the States...
http://www.sponsorship.com/IEGSR/2012/0 ... egory.aspx0 -
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Interesting stuff. Finishing bottles do sound fairly horrendous, and I'm slightly surprised that riders would be prepared to take them keeping in mind that the team could shove anything they like into them and the rider would presumably be none-the-wiser.
On the one hand we've all been impressed by stories about riders battling on through GTs with horrendous injuries, and wouldn't want to deny those riders a bit of pain relief. On the other hand, although that's always been part of the romanticisation of pain that's a big part of cycling, is it really any good for the cyclists? If they need those sort of drugs then perhaps they should be being pulled out of races instead of being encouraged to ride on doped up to the eyeballs with pain killers.0 -
Graeme_S wrote:Interesting stuff. Finishing bottles do sound fairly horrendous, and I'm slightly surprised that riders would be prepared to take them keeping in mind that the team could shove anything they like into them and the rider would presumably be none-the-wiser.
On the one hand we've all been impressed by stories about riders battling on through GTs with horrendous injuries, and wouldn't want to deny those riders a bit of pain relief. On the other hand, although that's always been part of the romanticisation of pain that's a big part of cycling, is it really any good for the cyclists? If they need those sort of drugs then perhaps they should be being pulled out of races instead of being encouraged to ride on doped up to the eyeballs with pain killers.
Everyone remember Chris Horner crashing in the Tour last year, and despite clearly not knowing whether he was Arthur or Martha, his team letting him get back on the bike and continue the stage?0 -
Horner getting put back on his bike last year was one of the worst things that i've ever seen. I can only imagine how his family would feel seeing that...
Finishing bottles sound nuts! Do we think Phinney may be referring to the Giro crash this year that bought him and Cav down when saying that they could be the cause of crashes?0 -
Not sure I see much wrong with the a paracetamol and something to stop the ooze of snot when all the rider has is a head cold. I'm sure we've all used something similar to help get through a day at work (in fact the cold a flu capsule I've just popped even has a bit of caffeine in it which I've only just realised!).
Anything stronger is a bit worrying, tramadol, Pro Plus etc.... particularly when it becomes something that's being taken all the time. The finishing bottles sound dodgy too.
The other things that worry me are these recovery potions you see advertised online and in various magazines. Not the beetroot or milkshake type ones but the ones that are full of extracts and chemicals (that most of us have never heard of) and come in a medicine bottle. Typically I can't think of any in particular to give an example at the moment.
Nick Fitt think you're being a bit harsh on Phinney. Gels and a can of coke are one thing, regular pain killer abuse is something totally different.0 -
Graeme_S wrote:Interesting stuff. Finishing bottles do sound fairly horrendous, and I'm slightly surprised that riders would be prepared to take them keeping in mind that the team could shove anything they like into them and the rider would presumably be none-the-wiser.
Mentioning no names Johan Bruneeyl, Frank Schleck...
Good on Phinney though, I played with people who did similar things before Rugby matches and stuff and i agree with the point about if you need it then it won't work, but if you don't need it then it won't make any difference, but it's not good either. I'm a bit bad at pill popping myself to be honest. That said I don't much see the difference between a caffeine gel or a can of coke and a Pro Plus pill, and i ve used the former to get me round laps of 24hr races.
Again the problem is more that it is so organised...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Fair enough if a rider is taking pain killers on a regular basis to be able to ride but there are times where they just allow you to ride in comfort due to an ailment that is not cycling related and which riding won't make worse. As an example I occassionally take Ibuprofen to take away the pain / swelling I get due to a dodgy disc in my back and ride in comfort. Riding isn't making riding worse, in fact my physio reckons it helps as it strengthens the muscles that support the back. There must be other ailments such as toothache where this would apply. However, using them to overcome an injury that is likely to get worse due to continued riding should be stopped. Riders who crash should be subject to a medical examination before they are allowed to start the following day just as jockeys who are involved in falls have to do.0
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hammerite wrote:Gels and a can of coke are one thing, regular pain killer abuse is something totally different.
You can see that there's a grey scale, though... How many gels/coke/caffeine capsules does it take to constitute "abuse"?: how many pain killers a day constitute "reasonable consumption"?hammerite wrote:Not sure I see much wrong with the a paracetamol and something to stop the ooze of snot when all the rider has is a head cold. I'm sure we've all used something similar to help get through a day at work (in fact the cold a flu capsule I've just popped even has a bit of caffeine in it which I've only just realised!).
I don't mean to pick on you hammerite, but you can see how we slip into a casual attitude to drug consumption and its associated language - we're used to "popping" something the moment we feel (or think we feel) the merest hint of discomfort (and then probably not be fully aware of what's in it).0 -
The journo couldn't think of a better word ?riders being, for want of a better word, off their boxes with what is in their system.
Sounds like the finish of yer typical Cat4 race...0 -
OCDuPalais wrote:hammerite wrote:Gels and a can of coke are one thing, regular pain killer abuse is something totally different.
You can see that there's a grey scale, though... How many gels/coke/caffeine capsules does it take to constitute "abuse"?: how many pain killers a day constitute "reasonable consumption"?hammerite wrote:Not sure I see much wrong with the a paracetamol and something to stop the ooze of snot when all the rider has is a head cold. I'm sure we've all used something similar to help get through a day at work (in fact the cold a flu capsule I've just popped even has a bit of caffeine in it which I've only just realised!).
I don't mean to pick on you hammerite, but you can see how we slip into a casual attitude to drug consumption and its associated language - we're used to "popping" something the moment we feel (or think we feel) the merest hint of discomfort (and then probably not be fully aware of what's in it).
Don't worry, not taken as being picked on.
I can see where you are going. I guess it depends on how strong the individual is and the reason for using something. For me personally a paracetamol/cold & flu remedy no problem, anything stronger no chance. If I had the opportunity to sit on my backside and do nothing when I felt ill I probably wouldn't take anything, as I have to work through most of it I'll take something like I mentioned above. If I had a chronic problem it definitely wouldn't be the answer.
As a pro you have to be very careful anyway, you could easily fall foul like Alain Baxter, or that guy who was a senior official at the Danish Cycling Union.
Will we see riders racing on nothing other than bread and water? I doubt it, we probably wouldn't want to see that either.0 -
Admirable stance to take... can't say I agree totally with him, but good luck... if it works for him and Cummings et al more power to them.
On 'finishing bottles': Popular choice in the peloton when I was racing was caffeine, painkillers, and alcohol! (Usually espresso, aspirin, and cognac or similar!) Ugggh, I still shudder at the thought of the taste!0 -
That's it though, it's the attitude that's a problem rather than the drugs themselves. I've used painkillers on the bike when I felt like I needed them, doesn't mean I've started taking them every time I go out for a ride though.OCDuPalais wrote:you can see how we slip into a casual attitude to drug consumption0 -
“the whole reason we get into sport in the first place is to test our bodies, to test our limits. If you are taking something that is going to boost your performance, that is not exactly being true to yourself”thegibdog wrote:
That's it though, it's the attitude that's a problem rather than the drugs themselves. I've used painkillers on the bike when I felt like I needed them, doesn't mean I've started taking them every time I go out for a ride though.OCDuPalais wrote:you can see how we slip into a casual attitude to drug consumption
Good words from Phinney.
This last summer, when I was on holiday cycling in the Alps as part of a group of 12, and the discussion came around to how well we’d cope with some of the major passes, I was surprised to hear 3 of the group say that they always took painkillers before a ride.
I knew some taking of painkillers went on in low-cat races but I felt pretty naïve to hear that cyclists who do no more than sportives did the same, and that every time they went out on their bikes.0 -
hammerite wrote:Nick Fitt think you're being a bit harsh on Phinney. Gels and a can of coke are one thing, regular pain killer abuse is something totally different.
Yup, I agree, in the current climate though, he sets off saying he feels that all pain killers should be removed, then I recall he says that use might lead to the 'Maginot Line' of doping. Following that same logic, is it not reasonable to say a few gels will lead to a few tablets will lead to doping? I might have misread it. If he is of the opinion that if you need medicine you should not be racing, then he should not be taking a few gels before a TT
i think his stance is good. i for one would love to see a total block on any medicine. Not sure you can ride a GT with depleted energy, resulting bugs without medicine though. Treatment is a basic human right. Tricky can of worms Id say0 -
esafosfina wrote:On 'finishing bottles': Popular choice in the peloton when I was racing was caffeine, painkillers, and alcohol! (Usually espresso, aspirin, and cognac or similar!) Ugggh, I still shudder at the thought of the taste!
Blinking eck, is this known as 'pot belge'. I recall the IOW 2 day I would normally get hammered on the Saturday night in the Holiday Camp bar/race HQ, never ideal to be honest probably why I dont think I once made the top 50! Not sure I could knock back a brandy riding a bike, its hard enough sober! Chapeau
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Nick, Pot Belge is something far more sinister: usually a cocktail of various products not limited to - amphets, caffeine, cocaine, strychnine, vit c, (I've heard of heroin in the mix), glucose etc etc... was very popular for uncontrolled Kermesse/criterium races... I've heard some horror stories about riders getting a bad batch and having very bad adverse reactions, including dancing all night to Belgian Acid House! (Sorry... bit trite, but true!)0
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Everyone remember Chris Horner crashing in the Tour last year, and despite clearly not knowing whether he was Arthur or Martha, his team letting him get back on the bike and continue the stage?[/quote]
Reminds me of the former Partick Thistle manager John Lambie after his physio told him Colin McGlashan couldn't go back on as he was concussed and "he doesn't know who he is"
Lambie - "F***in great, tell him he's Pele and get him back on" :shock:0 -
esafosfina wrote:Nick, Pot Belge is something far more sinister: usually a cocktail of various products not limited to - amphets, caffeine, cocaine, strychnine, vit c, (I've heard of heroin in the mix), glucose etc etc... was very popular for uncontrolled Kermesse/criterium races... I've heard some horror stories about riders getting a bad batch and having very bad adverse reactions, including dancing all night to Belgian Acid House! (Sorry... bit trite, but true!)
Theres a good batch? 0 -
esafosfina wrote:Nick, Pot Belge is something far more sinister: usually a cocktail of various products not limited to - amphets, caffeine, cocaine, strychnine, vit c, (I've heard of heroin in the mix), glucose etc etc... was very popular for uncontrolled Kermesse/criterium races... I've heard some horror stories about riders getting a bad batch and having very bad adverse reactions, including dancing all night to Belgian Acid House! (Sorry... bit trite, but true!)
Vit C and Belgian Acid House are a lethal combination :shock: 0 -
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Not strictly pro-race, but given the English football team partly blamed their poor performance upon a mix of caffeine and sleeping pills, I did wonder what other forms of doping (legal and illegal) do go on in other sports...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012 ... ke-up-call0 -
dish_dash wrote:Not strictly pro-race, but given the English football team partly blamed their poor performance upon a mix of caffeine and sleeping pills, I did wonder what other forms of doping (legal and illegal) do go on in other sports...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012 ... ke-up-call
Do you really think footballers don't do everything cyclists have been doing? Several years ago Wenger said players he has signed from abroad had high hematocrits and who was that Man U England player that did a runner when the testers turned up? Footballers are hardly ever tested and there is so much money in football their methods would probably make Armstrong look like a disorganised amatuer.0
