Death of a Cruiserweight (page 5)

cruiserweight

This is getting silly. Pastey, Lynskey sent me PDFs of the 2008 build sheets for these frames. The BB drop is 60mm on these PDF drawings and also on the retailer’s website. In fact all the measurements on the PDFs exactly match what is on the retailer’s website. None of these measurements match the dimensions of a 2009 HPT Super (which can be seen on any archived Cube 2009 website). What you have is similar in tube shape and materials but with slightly different geometry and of course the weird BB drop. These PDFs are available via email if you want them ...or would you rather not see them?
I'm sincerely pleased that you like your frame but I suspect that you are suffering from a dose of wishful thinking (we all do it where bikes are concerned). You said that you wanted a 54cm frame because your current 52cm frame was too small. You then bought a 58cm frame. I suspect you persuaded yourself that the 58 cm was perfect for you (by claiming that it was equivalent to everyone else’s 54) because that was the smallest size they had on sale. When I pointed out that it had a virtual top tube size of 56cm (which is equivalent to at least a 56cm race frame) you then claimed that it would still fit you perfectly. Going from a 52cm to a 56cm bike is quite a leap which is probably why there is not enough room on your old fork for any spacers. You can always fit a shorter stem to make it fit but a short stem combined with that very high BB will not be happy going down steep hills. I’m also glad that you think that a super stiff frame will suit you but I was making the comments for the benefit of other people who might consider buying the frame. Most people who are interested in a ti frame are interested in comfort. This frame will not provide it.

I’m pleased that you like your frame but you shouldn’t let your enthusiasm mislead other prospective purchasers, especially on sizing. The frame is a good value but there are question marks on it. Anyone who has had a custom frame made for them will appreciate the benefits of good geometry and fit. I have a custom frame with a BB drop of 80mm. Once you’ve experienced the thrill of descending on a bike with a lower BB and good fit, you wouldn’t want to go back to a bike with a standard BB drop of 70mm. I would avoid a road bike with a BB drop of only 60mm, like the plague.
Apologies if I have antagonised you. Peace to you my biking brother

pastey_boy

I'm not antagonised in any way I'm enjoying our Cube based discussion but please read my last post top to bottom then point out anything I have got wrong. My frame has the exact same dimensions of the actual frame reveiwed by real people, not assumptions based on clearly wrong geo charts. I didnt buy the 58cm because it was the smallest they have on sale as they have 56cm's on offer too which incidentally is very close to the titus i have just stripped down (same top and seat tube lengths to within 1mm) Obviously there are not as many spacers because of a longer headtube but the cube has a taller front end so less spacers will be needed. I have just measured the bb drop and it comes to 68mm give or take a mm. I measured it by placing a hub in both ends of the frame then placing a straight edge across the qr axles, i then measured the distance from the straight edge to the middle of the bb/ chainset, i then added 2.4mm to the total to take into account half the thickness of the qr skewer axle thus arriving at 68mm . I both own and run my own cycle shop so i am not some inexperienced noob who is suffering from a dose of wishful thinking, I'm a very experienced cyclist who did lots of research before taking the plunge. i have both the funds and means to purchase any bike in production but its not the way i work , I enjoy building bikes that differ from the norm and the process of speccing and searching for components gives me as much enjoyment as actually riding the bikes

cruiserweight

Pastey, I had a look at that German review. The review data sheet proves beyond any doubt that the Super HPT frame tested is not the same as yours.

The size tested is a 56cm that weighed in at 1346 gms (this suggests that the 2009 production frame had a few straight gauge tubes slipped in because it is a bit porky for a 56cm triple butted 6/4 ti frame). Your frame is a 58cm frame that weighs in at 1295grams

The 56 cm frame tested had a virtual 56cm top tube which is pretty typical for a 56cm frame. Your 58cm frame also has a virtual 56 cm top tube which shows that the 2009 production frame and your frame have different geometries and sizing methods. All the other dimensions are different by a few mm here and there. Lynskey build sheets and the corresponding builds are laser precise and your frame measurement exactly corresponds to them, so we know your frame is a 58cm (as per the Lynskey build sheet).

Now I'm sure you'll tell me that the German testers made a mistake and they actually tested a 58cm frame and that the other measurements and weights are all a mistake but I can't argue with that sort of determination.

As I've already told you (several posts ago), your frame is a Lynskey Level Four frame from 2008. It's written on the Lynskey build sheet and it's been confirmed by Lynskey. Lynskey identified the frames on the German website from their appearance and more importantly from the geometry (a 57cm virtual top tube on a 60cm frame gave the game away). You do not have a 2009 Super HPT but what you do have is arguably better than that. I wouldn't buy a bike with that BB drop but if it sort-of fits you and you don't race down hills then you have a screaming deal. I'm guessing that you don't race or do competitive club rides at your weight, so the BB height might not be that important to you.

* I wrote the above before I saw your latest post. You are now claiming that the BB drop on your frame is 68mm? That does not correspond to either the drawings for the 2009 Super HPT production frame or to the drawings for your frame. The Lynskey manufacturing jigs makes it impossible for them to make a frame where the geometry doesn't match the drawings, so I'll have to draw my own conclusions and leave it at that.

Cheers all

kev77

Sounds like a case for lewis now then!

;-)

" i have both the funds and means to purchase any bike in production "

This is a no no mate

pastey_boy

my weight is due to body building and not pies, I suffer a little on long climbs but stamina wise I can keep up with most on the flat. I do apologise for getting a little mixed up I did indeed order the 58 and somewhere in the middle of all this I mistakenly quoted myself as having the 56 which compared the the german testers 56, I also measured the bb drop wrong and will post a correct value when the bike is built. Here is the geo from bike discounts site for the 58 and the german testers site for the 56, way to close to be a co-incidence imho. my frame was weighed with out cable adjusters and bb cable guide plus allowing for error its going to be close.

pastey_boy

ooops something got lost in translation.

pastey_boy

kev77 wrote:

Sounds like a case for lewis now then!

;-)

" i have both the funds and means to purchase any bike in production "

This is a no no mate

Ive been made to sound like i have purchased the frame even though its all wrong for me and the option i picked was chosen because the correct option was not available, this is not the case. i went for the cube as it met all my criteria and to my eyes its a stunning piece of engineering plus i had the sneaking suspicion i was getting much more than the sale price suggested. as it stands it cost me £830 posted but i could have spent much more if i had seen another frame that caught my eye but i am a die hard bargain hunter and will only pay top prices if i cant find anything that suits for a lower price. I own my own business, dont have kids and neither smoke nor drink so i have more disposable income than your average married bloke with kids and bad habits.

cruiserweight

Mate, how you’ve been made to sound is all your own doing. You’ve really got to learn when to stop digging. The BB drop measurement you were so certain of five minutes ago is suddenly incorrect? You own a bike shop but you thought that a frame with a virtual 56cm top tube was like everyone else’s 54cm frame? Your 58cm frame is clearly the same model and size as a 56cm frame in an old German magazine, even if all the measurements and weights are a bit different? Any differences are clearly due to Lynskey, the retailers and various German reviewers getting their measurements wrong? You own a bike shop but had no idea how a frame warranty worked?

Then to cap it all, you try to turn bikeradar into a dating site. It's great that you’re rich, unmarried and not too fat but unless you’re a hideously perverted bird with a Colnago C59, I ain’t interested

awsm

Cruiser you seem a bit obsessed now mate. I think you've made your opinion quite clear and there isn't any need to keep repeating yourself.

Frame looks great and I'm seriously tempted. Although I'm not convinced it is 6al/4v I may try making some enquiries too.

Can you post some more photos?

kev77

pastey_boy wrote:

kev77 wrote:

Sounds like a case for lewis now then!

;-)

" i have both the funds and means to purchase any bike in production "

This is a no no mate

Ive been made to sound like i have purchased the frame even though its all wrong for me and the option i picked was chosen because the correct option was not available, this is not the case. i went for the cube as it met all my criteria and to my eyes its a stunning piece of engineering plus i had the sneaking suspicion i was getting much more than the sale price suggested. as it stands it cost me £830 posted but i could have spent much more if i had seen another frame that caught my eye but i am a die hard bargain hunter and will only pay top prices if i cant find anything that suits for a lower price. I own my own business, dont have kids and neither smoke nor drink so i have more disposable income than your average married bloke with kids and bad habits.

So are you going to come out for a spin on it then?

Meet you at the greyhound, let me know and we can compare weight's ;-)

Cheers kev

kev77

Where is your bike shop BTW?

pastey_boy

cruiserweight wrote:

Mate, how you’ve been made to sound is all your own doing. You’ve really got to learn when to stop digging. The BB drop measurement you were so certain of five minutes ago is suddenly incorrect? You own a bike shop but you thought that a frame with a virtual 56cm top tube was like everyone else’s 54cm frame? Your 58cm frame is clearly the same model and size as a 56cm frame in an old German magazine, even if all the measurements and weights are a bit different? Any differences are clearly due to Lynskey, the retailers and various German reviewers getting their measurements wrong? You own a bike shop but had no idea how a frame warranty worked?

Then to cap it all, you try to turn bikeradar into a dating site. It's great that you’re rich, unmarried and not too fat but unless you’re a hideously perverted bird with a Colnago C59, I ain’t interested

I tried to take the measurement with no wheels on which i thought would work but it didnt, The frame size is an odd one as mentioned many times, the reach is similar to a van nic chinook 56cm i tried the other day yet it has a 20mm lower seat tube which is what i wanted as the chinook felt good but the seat tube was slightly too long . And yes my 58 appears to be the same shape as the 56 the germans reviewed but cubes sizing on this particular model is slightly different to the normal way of sizing bikes, read the bike radar review of a 2009 hpt as they mention this clearly. Frame weights do vary from frame to frame of the same model as it does with rims , you would struggle to get two identical frames to weigh exactly the same.And I bought up my weight and fitness as you assumed I was an unfit lardy pants not even capable of keeping pace on a club ride, There are a few members on this very site who will vouch for my fitness. I dont recall saying im rich either.

pastey_boy

kev77 wrote:

Where is your bike shop BTW?

I'm In the glorious town of Golborne the posh part of Warrington ha ha ha ha.

pastey_boy

awsm wrote:

Cruiser you seem a bit obsessed now mate. I think you've made your opinion quite clear and there isn't any need to keep repeating yourself.

Frame looks great and I'm seriously tempted. Although I'm not convinced it is 6al/4v I may try making some enquiries too.

Can you post some more photos?

Because 6al/4v is very hard to work into complex shapes lynskey have to fold into the octagonal shape then seam weld the join, The seam is clearly in evidence under both tubes. To my knowledge and confirmed by lynskey the only frame they ever made for cube with this tubing was 6al/4v tubing. I will post plenty shots when the bike is built might get it done tomorrow if my bits turn up.

bencolem

I've enjoyed following this post - although its got a bit too personal at times!

Have to say that if I was a betting man I'd bet that this is a 2009 Cube Litening Super HPT in 6AL/4V with 2012 decals (for some random reason).

I'd be interested to hear how it rides, my old (genuine!) Cube Litening HPT (not the super) was too soft and flexy for me. I tried a Litespeed Archon (6/4 top tube only) and ended up buying the Icon because the Archon was so stiff that it didn't feel like ti at all and I'd imagine that if this is 6/4 all over it will be super super stiff. Although Germans like their frames stiff (and its probably a good thing for a heavyweight bodybuilder!) I'd imagine it would be too stiff for most so please post a ride report when you can!

My current ti bike is custom made (Baum) and has a 70mm BB drop btw.

One last thing (and I'm worried that this comment might be interpreted as inflammatory when I assure you that it is well intended!) if you've just bought that EC90 chainset, return it for a refund asap. Where the axle interfaces with the inside of the carbon spider will fail at some point. Happened on mine. Told the bike shop. They said everyone they had sold had done exactly the same thing. Shame as it was an awesome chainset (light, stiff, pretty and matched my BMC perfectly) but its a well documented issue on the forums.

Looking forward to build pics!

bencolem

P.S.
Believe the Super was designed as an all-out race bike at the time (as a bit of a project to show that ti can match carbon for all out race speed) which led to it having a really 'racy' geometry (i.e. arse up, head down, short, lively over the front wheel kind of riding position) to go along with the super-stiff no compromise material (6/4) choice. The Archon was born of the same philosophy (that ti can be made to be as race stiff and fast as the 'new wave' of carbon frames at the time rather). Might explain the geometry 'foibles' being described earlier in this topic?

pastey_boy

Hi Ben
I saw the thread for your hpt on weight weenies, as for the chainset i am well aware of the problem but i paid an obscenely low amount for them so i will use them until they fail then remove the posh chainrings and put my sram reds on.
as for the whole argument of the frame being the 2009 super hpt I have just finished a web chat with a lynskey employee ,he was very helpful and did a search of my frames serial number, seems i was 100% correct and cruiserweight is 100% wrong.

pastey_boy

Did you here the one about a bloke who was going to purchase an almost £4000 frame for £800 but cancelled it because he's wrong Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

kev77

titanium is an inferior metal anyway

;-) ha ha

pastey_boy

The guy ordered one then cancelled it then went on to tell me that it will be beyond horrendous to ride and that it will ping and creak and sub £1000 alu frames are way way better !!!!!!!!!! Without ever actually owning one :shock:

kev77

well, you know

:-)

Iamnot Wiggins

If you spend as much time building this as you do talking rubbish and proving a point on the 'net, you'll have a top quality bike. Now shut up and get to work.

kev77

^^ha ha ha^^

pastey_boy

Iamnot Wiggins wrote:

If you spend as much time building this as you do talking rubbish and proving a point on the 'net, you'll have a top quality bike. Now shut up and get to work.

Fair point but i was actually talking facts and If I know I'm right I will not let anyone tell me different.

Iamnot Wiggins

pastey_boy wrote:

Iamnot Wiggins wrote:

If you spend as much time building this as you do talking rubbish and proving a point on the 'net, you'll have a top quality bike. Now shut up and get to work.

Fair point but i was actually talking facts and If I know I'm right I will not let anyone tell me different.

Emphasis on the last sentence, I hasten to add.

cruiserweight

Pastey, I told you several pages ago that the frame was a Lynskey Level Four build, made in 2008. A Lynskey level four build uses folded 6/4 ti. I have the build sheets in PDF form, direct from Lynskey. The build sheets even show the composition of each tube. I offered to show them to you but you preferred to chunter on about your wealth and marital status. If you had read what I repeatedly told you this thread would be half the length. I did not call you fat. You mentioned that you were up to 18.5 stone and I said that I don't suppose you race at that weight, so maybe the very high BB doesn't matter. This appeared to unhinge you but that was not my intention. I will admit to thinking that an 18.5 stone bloke who’s been riding a 52cm frame must differently proportioned to the average cyclist but I did not call you fat.

Another thing that appeared to upset you was my pointing out that your 58cm frame is the equivalent to a typical 56cm frame and not a 54cm (as you claimed). As you previously rode a 52cm and said you wanted a 54cm frame, I thought I would point it out to you before you proceeded too far with the build and also for the benefit of anyone else who might have been misled on the sizing of these frames. My BB drop comments also appeared to upset you but they were always about the frame and not you personally. We all love our bikes but you seem to take that to a new level. I reserve that level of 'overly protective' for my children.

If anyone is interested, I will send you the detailed Lynskey PDF build sheets for these exact frames. The geometry exactly matches the diagrams on the retailers site. Everything on the build sheets looks OK to me except for the 60mm bottom bracket drop. It's just my opinion but I wouldn’t buy a bike with such a high bottom bracket. 70mm is fine but 75mm to 80mm is better. A 60mm bottom bracket drop is just plain dodgy. If anyone wants to feel what it's like, take a fast downhill corner on a Colnago (lowish BB) and then do exactly the same thing on a typical CX bike (high BB). There are other factors involved but the CX bike will feel unstable in comparison and will not give you the confidence to lean properly into a corner. This Cube frame will not handle well because it is also missing the other things that help a road bike handle (it has a short wheelbase and does not have a slack Colnagoesque headtube). As an earlier poster said, these types of frame were a last ditch effort to compete with the weight and stiffness of carbon. Unfortunately too many of ti's traditional attributes are sacrificed to achieve the impossible design brief

Another question mark over this frame (in my opinion) is durability. Planet X had plenty of their Lynskey build ti frames returned to them. This Cube frame is a thin walled ti frame that will not have the durability of a thicker walled traditional ti frame made from more ductile standard ti. Don't get me wrong, the majority of them will last for years and years but it's just something to be aware of. As I said earlier thin walled ti also tends to click and pop. Some don’t mind frame noise and it drives others to distraction

I pulled out from buying this frame mostly because of the bottom bracket drop but also because of the harsh ride it will have. The 6/4ti large diameter tubing will definitely give a harsh ride. Even level 3 Lynskey builds have been criticised (pez etc) for their harsher than expected ride and a level four will be worse. For my money this defeats the purpose of buying a ti frame. If you want super stiff, then carbon and aluminium will do it better for less money. If you want comfortable then a smaller gauge standard ti frame will do the trick although these days there are other materials that also do it just as well or better. An alloy Synapse is very plush and a Trek Domane is heaven. On the other hand ti still evokes an emotional response in some buyers, so if the thought of it gives you pleasure, then it’s a screaming deal. A Lynskey level four build is very expensive

nathancom

You do go on a bit...

I get the sense Pastey is not interested in your opinion so would probably be best to keep it to yourself and stop trying to rain on someone's parade. Why have you only ever posted in this thread, so have made an account just for this reason???

pastey_boy

I have had written confirmation from lynskey themselves that this is a 2009 super hpt .they did this by tracing the serial number. It's not a level four although the cube shares many similarities. lynskey have no reason to lie or cover anything up, Cube are at fault for selling it as a wrongly badged 2012 item. As for thin walled ti frames making clicking, popping and creacking noises, I have owned more than 10 or so over the years and never had that happen .Case closed

cruiserweight

nathancom, thanks for your comment but I don’t really care if pastey is interested in what I have to say. My comments are mostly aimed at everyone and the amount of pms I’ve had on the subject suggests that your illogical viewpoint is far from universal. Are first posts illegal in your opinion? I joined this website because I was interested in this frame. I carried on posting longer than I intended because the Groundhog Day non-comprehension of what I was saying intrigued me. I have never posted before on any site but I have always heard that there were a lot of eccentrics on the web. Rub them up the wrong way and all sorts of emotive madness will come out. Quite amusing but ultimately it’s not for me.

Regarding these Cube frames, if anyone is still interested then you can go by the geometry that is on the Bike Discount.de website. It exactly corresponds to the Lynskey build sheets for these frames that were sent to me by Lynskey. Lynskey are quite evasive about frames they made for other people because they regret doing it. They will alternatively tell you want you don’t want to hear and what you do want to hear. In my game pastey could be accused of leading the witness but he didn’t ask the right question which is: why are there several versions of the same frame from the same era? It took me several goes (and I’m used to asking questions) to get the build sheets for these Bike Discount frames. Level four is written all over the build sheets. It’s just how Lynskey describe a frame made from this kind of tube. It doesn’t mean it is actually is a Lynskey from their standard range.
These Bike Discount.de frames are similar to the 2009 Super HPT but not quite the same. Lynskey must have built a few slightly different versions of the same thing for Cube because these frames are different to some of the reviewed frames which in turn, are different to the frames that are on the 2009 Cube website. For example look at the link to a 2009 Cube website (I posted it earlier). I was interested in the 60cm frame and the first thing I noticed is that the headtube on the Cube website for a 60cm 2009 Super HPT was 180mm. The headtube on the 60cm frame being sold by Bike Discount is 163mm. That’s too big a difference to be ignored by any rational person. I’m sure it will be ignored but I can’t help that.

cruiserweight

pastey, do a Google search "titanium frame noise" and you will see a very long lists of posts complaining about noise on titanium frames. Look down the list a bit and you'll even see a review where a bloke moans about noise on his Lynskey Level Four frame - which he puts down to the thin tubing. Remember it was just a frame i was talking about. I'm amazed that a bike shop owner, who's owned more than ten ti frames, has never heard of noise from ti frames or heard noise from any of his own considerable fleet. Actually more incredulous than amazed.