Increasing Power Output

JustinLeeAtkinson

I dont know whether there is a reliable answer to this, perhaps there isn't.

By how much (percentage?) can I expect to improve my power output on a bike through training?

So, just as an example, if I start with a power to weight ratio of 3 watts per kilo, is it possible to increase that to 5 watts per kilo say?

Herbsman

JustinLeeAtkinson wrote:

I dont know whether there is a reliable answer to this, perhaps there isn't.

By how much (percentage?) can I expect to improve my power output on a bike through training?

So, just as an example, if I start with a power to weight ratio of 3 watts per kilo, is it possible to increase that to 5 watts per kilo say?

The answer is 'it depends'.

Obviously, it depends on how trained you are now. If you were completely untrained, then you could expect to improve it massively. Perhaps 30, perhaps 50%.

If you're an elite rider who is competetive in Premier Calendar events but still has a full time job, then you probably couldn't expect to increase it more than a few percent without quitting your job to train and sleep more.

Also it depends on how much excess body fat you have. If you're a right big bloke with loads of bodyfat then of course it'll be possible to increase your power to weight ratio by a massive amount through weight loss alone, and even more so with a power increase on top of that...

dw300

EXTRA EXTRA !
HERBSMAN IN CONSIDERED AND INFORMATIVE ANSWER SHOCKER.


:P

ric/rstsport

A while back Andrew Coggan calculated that an average young male should be able to reach about 4 W/kg for ~ 1 hr if they trained sufficiently hard enough. i can't recall all the caveats he gave, or even whether i've missed something out, but yeah 4 W/kg should be possible if you're still young (i can't recall what was the age definition). Additionally, it may be possible for you to exceed 4 W/kg.

Note that at present there is no way of determining how good you/anyone could be. just do it, and see what happens.

Ric

JustinLeeAtkinson

Thanks

I wasn't quite clear enough. I'm not seeking personal advice, just a general question. In basic terms take the average untrained adult put them through sufficient training what is the maximum power increase you could expect?

I seem to recall Greg LeMan Lemond being of the view that vo2 max is almost all genetically determined, in excess of 90 per cent. To what extent is this a limiter on power output?

ric/rstsport

JustinLeeAtkinson wrote:

Thanks

I wasn't quite clear enough. I'm not seeking personal advice, just a general question. In basic terms take the average untrained adult put them through sufficient training what is the maximum power increase you could expect?

I seem to recall Greg LeMan Lemond being of the view that vo2 max is almost all genetically determined, in excess of 90 per cent. To what extent is this a limiter on power output?

the point that i was *badly* making was that the average untrained person (iirc Andrew Coggan's statements) were that the average person could reach about 4 W/kg.

Vo2 max is about 50% genetically determined. It sets the upper rate of aerobic metabolism.

Andrew's comments are excellent to read in this regards (and on most/all things cycling and exercise physiology). I believe that his comments can be found on the slowtwitch forum to do with this (but as i refuse to go there i can't collate those comments).

Alex_Simmons/RST

JustinLeeAtkinson wrote:

I dont know whether there is a reliable answer to this, perhaps there isn't.

By how much (percentage?) can I expect to improve my power output on a bike through training?

So, just as an example, if I start with a power to weight ratio of 3 watts per kilo, is it possible to increase that to 5 watts per kilo say?

A fit experienced racer might see seasonal variances of ~ 10% in threshold W/kg.

We have seen improvements in threshold W/kg of well over 50%, but that's at one end of the bell curve.

At the moment due to many factors (ROLF, injury, prosthetic problems), I've had a very long time away from training and am extremely unfit (for me). If I was able to return to my peak fitness level of last year, then that would involve a 60% improvement in my current threshold W/kg.

With good training, improvements are greatest in the early years, but it is possible to improve over the course of a decade if you really work at it.


As for the 4W/kg thing, to summarise Dr Coggan, an average young adult male with average physiology (especially wrt VO2max, gross metabolic efficiency and % of VO2max sustainable at threshold) would, with sufficient training over a couple of years, be capable of attaining a threshold W/kg of ~ 3.9W/kg.

But that assumes that person is average in each of those physiological parameters. Hence, that would be the middle of the bell curve for trained average young males. Some people are genetically blessed with a higher VO2max, others might have poor GME.

So, like age based formula for heart rates, it's an interesting observation and not really applicable to any individual.


As Ric said, focus on the process, and see what improvement you can attain. Set goals, but don't set limits.

dw300

I reckon my FTP/kg is up by about 35-40% on last year.

But since I haven't dropped a grand on a power meter it will be roundly dismissed and written of as wishful thinking.

jgsi

dw300 wrote:

I reckon my FTP/kg is up by about 35-40% on last year.

But since I haven't dropped a grand on a power meter it will be roundly dismissed and written of as wishful thinking.

In that case, we have to go by results...
My best race performance recently this year came after a period of structured training and following a formal training plan.
12 months ago, it would have been almost a pipe dream to have have competed so strongly.
Pushing the numbers out is only a small part of the 'game'.

Alex_Simmons/RST

dw300 wrote:

I reckon my FTP/kg is up by about 35-40% on last year.

But since I haven't dropped a grand on a power meter it will be roundly dismissed and written of as wishful thinking.

Not if your speed up long steep climbs has increased by 35-40%, since that would the outcome of such a performance gain.

dw300

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

dw300 wrote:

I reckon my FTP/kg is up by about 35-40% on last year.

But since I haven't dropped a grand on a power meter it will be roundly dismissed and written of as wishful thinking.

Not if your speed up long steep climbs has increased by 35-40%, since that would the outcome of such a performance gain.

Sadly I don't since I wouldn't have got up the only climb worth doing near to Belfast. I have however set up a Strava segment and set a good benchmark on it this year, which it will be one of my goals to beat next year.

Would 5.5 miles at 4.4% be steep enough? Or would 1.3 miles at 6.5%, or 0.8 miles at 8.6% be long enough?

richa

dw300 wrote:

I reckon my FTP/kg is up by about 35-40% on last year.

But since I haven't dropped a grand on a power meter it will be roundly dismissed and written of as wishful thinking.

Are you not a trainerroad user? A decent turbo & consistent set up would provide a reasonable estimate of your power improvements.

napoleond

I'm using the Contador approach.

In my mind I'm 6.7w/kg.

dw300

RichA wrote:

dw300 wrote:

I reckon my FTP/kg is up by about 35-40% on last year.

But since I haven't dropped a grand on a power meter it will be roundly dismissed and written of as wishful thinking.

Are you not a trainerroad user? A decent turbo & consistent set up would provide a reasonable estimate of your power improvements.

Yes, that's what I'm basing my estimate on amongst other things, but you know what the attitudes are like if you haven't had a scientific thesis published on your results. :P

springtide9

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

dw300 wrote:

I reckon my FTP/kg is up by about 35-40% on last year.

But since I haven't dropped a grand on a power meter it will be roundly dismissed and written of as wishful thinking.

Not if your speed up long steep climbs has increased by 35-40%, since that would the outcome of such a performance gain.

FYI - Speed/power increase for me over the last year (July was a peak for me this year - before going on holiday!)

Distance: 2.0mi, Avg Grade: 3.4%, Elev Difference: 359ft
Jul 10, 2011 13.8mi/h 157bpm 8m36s
Jul 09, 2012 16.6mi/h 161bpm 7m09s

Speed increase has been ~ 20% over the year for the specific climb. And according to Strava, 'Strava power' has gone from roughly 270 watts to about 380 watts, so about 40% increase.

The 'Strava power' is an estimate, as I got a PT in the summer (but has gone back for repair a few times)... so I have had to roughly calculate this based on the various Strava power figures intermingled with the PT power figures (July 2012 was a PT figure, hence why I needed to guestimate it!)
( My weight has stayed the same unfortunately, if not a little heavier than last year )

But, I personally think getting to my current level can be achieved reasonably quickly, I'm not expecting the same improvements next year. I would be very happy with 5% - and I think even that would be a challenge.