Quick question about Normalised Power and F. threshold power

SBezza

So is the full duration of the ride, including rest intervals 1.1, if so I think there is something wrong. If I was doing a Vo2Max session with 5 min intervals, each interval is likely to > 1.1, but the session as a whole would be a fair bit lower than 1.

As for the seed value I would just leave these as default, they will sort themselves out over a 42 day period anyhow. IF, CTL, TSS, and TSB are all linked to your FTP, if this is set wrong, then these figures would be out as well, that is why it is pretty vital to set a correct FTP into the software.

Your last session on the PMC shows a TSS of >260, where you out for about 4 hours doing lots of intervals? Looking at the chart you have most of your session ending up with a IF of around 1, and that doesn't seem normal to me.

amaferanga

Short, hard intervals can massively inflate NP. What was the VI for the hour? My all time best 18min NP was from doing 30s intervals with about 2-3 minutes recovery between intervals. No way could I have done 18min at that AP.

springtide9

SBezza wrote:

So is the full duration of the ride, including rest intervals 1.1, if so I think there is something wrong. If I was doing a Vo2Max session with 5 min intervals, each interval is likely to > 1.1, but the session as a whole would be a fair bit lower than 1.

As for the seed value I would just leave these as default, they will sort themselves out over a 42 day period anyhow. IF, CTL, TSS, and TSB are all linked to your FTP, if this is set wrong, then these figures would be out as well, that is why it is pretty vital to set a correct FTP into the software.

Your last session on the PMC shows a TSS of >260, where you out for about 4 hours doing lots of intervals? Looking at the chart you have most of your session ending up with a IF of around 1, and that doesn't seem normal to me.

Thanks for the replies...

Yes the IF is for the overall ride is > 1.1, but there were a number of hill sprints in that. The reason why the duration was approx 4 hrs is that I went out twice yesterday.

So this was the first session (Tuesday)
http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/542X5IE ... HUBHPYZSTQ

And this the second (Tuesday with the IF>1.1):
http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/SONXCPY ... RF2F3JNUJY

Yes you are right, most of my rides have a IF around 1 depending on duration.

Maybe easier to give a the links to last weeks rides for completeness:

Tuesday: http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/LNC5PHJ ... B4PMOXV6DI
Wednesday: http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/RVBOJLF ... HMJI26PAUE
Thursday: http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/DOQZSOI ... BVHXUHDJII
Friday: http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/QF3H7ZA ... QZEONPC474

Yes I'm aware most of my rides are short, it's just a short term issue with family commitments honest gov :-)

I have been assuming that since my TSS scores are generally 150 is less, I am reasonably recovered by the following day, but the week takes it toll obviously.
I do try and alternate between harder and easier days, but I am a bit random TBH, I just ride depending on how I feel, and figure once I actually work out what's going on in TP, then maybe I can be a bit smarter.

amaferanga wrote:

Short, hard intervals can massively inflate NP. What was the VI for the hour? My all time best 18min NP was from doing 30s intervals with about 2-3 minutes recovery between intervals. No way could I have done 18min at that AP.

I believe this is true also... if you do short sprint intervals it seems to really inflate NP.

SBezza

Not sure if something isn't wrong with your settings, but for a 125 TSS ride I would have to ride bloody hard for 1.5 to 2 hours to get a similar TSS. I have no doubt short sprint intervals will elevate NP and hence the IF, but >1.1 seems high for the sort of session you did.

I would also suspect the power data, looking at the ride is says you did a max of 1810 watts, yet on the graph it only goes above 800 watts once for a short period (though I appreciate that this could be just the display limitations).

What do you have your FTP set as?

springtide9

My FTP is set to 306. I am pretty sure the PT is working fine. My PT has been back for repair a couple of times over the summer (due to the wheel going out of true), and the calibration has been checked each time (once while I watched). I was also lent a PT from the repairers (as it had been back so many times in the first few moths of ownership from new), and was getting similar data from the loaner (so IF regular around 1)

I think the sprint interval ride (IF >1.1) is probably due to NP not working well with this kind of activity, so maybe that is a bad example. Maybe a better ride example would be (Tuesday's last week):
http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/RVBOJLF ... HMJI26PAUE

I think "1810 watts" is a spike.. I haven't seen this before.. I think I'm usually peaking at 1100-1200 max (obviously only for a few secs!)

And this is an example of the data I was getting with the loaner, although I this was my 'peak ride' over the summer (before holiday): http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/NQEFYP2 ... J7J5LMSROU

Now the thing is, the average power for this ride is only roughly ~250 watts (but obviously does including zero for stops). I have never seen other people's data to compare, so this is where I'm hoping you can help.
I have thought about it maybe worth getting a little bit of coaching to learn what I am looking at with the PT data, but don't really want to sign up to £100/month for full on coaching.

amaferanga

Your rides look odd :?

I can't get my head around how they all seem to have such a high VI and how you're racking up such high TSS values with apparent ease.

Are you riding around on normal roads with junctions, ascents, descents, traffic lights, etc.? If so and you're getting an IF of ~1 on most of your rides, even those >2 hours long then that should be telling you you've got your FTP set too low.

Four back to back days of >150 TSS with hard intervals should be very taxing.

SBezza

Well from the rides you posted above I would perhaps suggest 306 is a little bit too low, perhaps it is time for a proper 20 - 60 min test to establish a better FTP figure.

If you can train for 2 hours near that figure and still train hard the following day, you have either very good powers of recovery or the FTP is just too low.

For the ride above the NP is 328 watts though, suggesting you could have done the ride (if the VI was closer to 1) at around this power, and you then did this effort for 17 mins longer than the effort you could maximally do for 1 hour. I doubt you was going all out for an hour either.

Ideally I would find a route you can go fairly steady on for an hour and give it your max effort for the duration, once your FTP has been set correctly, you will probably find the majority of rides end up being a fair bit lower than 1 unfortunately, but it is likely to give you a better picture of what is going on training wise. No doubt if you do sprint intervals and the like the IF score will still be out.

The only time my IF is near 1 is when I do a 25 mile TT, or a very good 50 mile TT, but it will be over 1 for a 10m TT for example

SBezza

amaferanga wrote:

Your rides look odd :?

I can't get my head around how they all seem to have such a high VI and how you're racking up such high TSS values with apparent ease.

Are you riding around on normal roads with junctions, ascents, descents, traffic lights, etc.? If so and you're getting an IF of ~1 on most of your rides, even those >2 hours long then that should be telling you you've got your FTP set too low.

Four back to back days of >150 TSS with hard intervals should be very taxing.

FTP being set too low will allow this to happen, true FTP will be higher than 306 that is for sure.

amaferanga

How much do you weigh? Your power numbers look high given the modest average speeds.

Also, are you just heading out every day and riding hard with some sprints here and there? I don't see any proper intervals in TP?

okgo

What are people's thoughts on finding it hard to go harder for a 10 than a 25. My best 25 mile power is exactly the same NP and AP as my best 10... I would use power to pace both efforts, so is it a case of being too conservative on the ten, or do you guys (I know some of you TT and race commenting above) find a similar issue?

springtide9

amaferanga wrote:

How much do you weigh? Your power numbers look high given the modest average speeds.

Also, are you just heading out every day and riding hard with some sprints here and there? I don't see any proper intervals in TP?

I am pretty heavy - currently around 86kg.

I don't do proper intervals.... they tend to be Strava intervals. The roads are littered with segments around here, and a segment is usually a stretch of road or hill without any traffic lights/junctions. So it's not that I am a Strava addict, it's just that a natural interval has been tagged as a segment. Also, Strava has all of the data for looking at your history on these segments, so doesn't seem a bad way of tracking the data (with zero effort)

Regarding my average speed... a lot of this is down to the ride is small and the first and last 4 miles is inner city traffic. On longer rides it is higher, as well as if I wait until I'm out of the city before starting the clock.

I was looking on Strava yesterday and found one of the local 10mile TT segments tagged, so now have the GPX file so that I can find this bit of Bristol that has quiet roads and ideal for a 20min Threshold test :-)

SBezza

okgo wrote:

What are people's thoughts on finding it hard to go harder for a 10 than a 25. My best 25 mile power is exactly the same NP and AP as my best 10... I would use power to pace both efforts, so is it a case of being too conservative on the ten, or do you guys (I know some of you TT and race commenting above) find a similar issue?

I would say to conservative in the 10, you probably have some idea of what power you could do from a 20 min effort based on 5 min efforts, which would normally be higher than you could manage for a full hour.

The only time I have put out less power in a 10 than a 25 is when I have been fatigued, or am doing the club 10's as part of an interval session.

okgo

SBezza wrote:

okgo wrote:

What are people's thoughts on finding it hard to go harder for a 10 than a 25. My best 25 mile power is exactly the same NP and AP as my best 10... I would use power to pace both efforts, so is it a case of being too conservative on the ten, or do you guys (I know some of you TT and race commenting above) find a similar issue?

I would say to conservative in the 10, you probably have some idea of what power you could do from a 20 min effort based on 5 min efforts, which would normally be higher than you could manage for a full hour.

The only time I have put out less power in a 10 than a 25 is when I have been fatigued, or am doing the club 10's as part of an interval session.

Aware there are no hard and fast rules, but I know my max 5 min to date which really felt like a max at the time, what in theory should be 20 min off the back of that?

SBezza

okgo wrote:

SBezza wrote:

okgo wrote:

What are people's thoughts on finding it hard to go harder for a 10 than a 25. My best 25 mile power is exactly the same NP and AP as my best 10... I would use power to pace both efforts, so is it a case of being too conservative on the ten, or do you guys (I know some of you TT and race commenting above) find a similar issue?

I would say to conservative in the 10, you probably have some idea of what power you could do from a 20 min effort based on 5 min efforts, which would normally be higher than you could manage for a full hour.

The only time I have put out less power in a 10 than a 25 is when I have been fatigued, or am doing the club 10's as part of an interval session.

Aware there are no hard and fast rules, but I know my max 5 min to date which really felt like a max at the time, what in theory should be 20 min off the back of that?

Not too sure in percentage terms if I am honest, I think we might all be very different in this aspect. I could probably sustain 30-40 less than my 5 min power for a 10, and probably 50 watts lower for a 25. I have no doubt may differ by a fair amount if they have a poor 5 min power for example.

10's for me are difficult to pace as I don't really do many of them, so I just go out hard and try and sustain the power for the duration

amaferanga

springtide9 wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

How much do you weigh? Your power numbers look high given the modest average speeds.

Also, are you just heading out every day and riding hard with some sprints here and there? I don't see any proper intervals in TP?

I am pretty heavy - currently around 86kg.

I don't do proper intervals.... they tend to be Strava intervals. The roads are littered with segments around here, and a segment is usually a stretch of road or hill without any traffic lights/junctions. So it's not that I am a Strava addict, it's just that a natural interval has been tagged as a segment. Also, Strava has all of the data for looking at your history on these segments, so doesn't seem a bad way of tracking the data (with zero effort)

Regarding my average speed... a lot of this is down to the ride is small and the first and last 4 miles is inner city traffic. On longer rides it is higher, as well as if I wait until I'm out of the city before starting the clock.

I was looking on Strava yesterday and found one of the local 10mile TT segments tagged, so now have the GPX file so that I can find this bit of Bristol that has quiet roads and ideal for a 20min Threshold test :-)

You obviously know this, but you're not really making the most of training with power. Haphazardly doing intervals with irregular recovery periods to fit with Strava segments likely won't be as effective as finding a good hill or stretch of road and doing a structured set of intervals of a set length and recovery period. Time to forget about Strava I'd say.

neeb

SBezza wrote:

okgo wrote:

SBezza wrote:

okgo wrote:

What are people's thoughts on finding it hard to go harder for a 10 than a 25. My best 25 mile power is exactly the same NP and AP as my best 10... I would use power to pace both efforts, so is it a case of being too conservative on the ten, or do you guys (I know some of you TT and race commenting above) find a similar issue?

I would say to conservative in the 10, you probably have some idea of what power you could do from a 20 min effort based on 5 min efforts, which would normally be higher than you could manage for a full hour.

The only time I have put out less power in a 10 than a 25 is when I have been fatigued, or am doing the club 10's as part of an interval session.

Aware there are no hard and fast rules, but I know my max 5 min to date which really felt like a max at the time, what in theory should be 20 min off the back of that?

Not too sure in percentage terms if I am honest, I think we might all be very different in this aspect. I could probably sustain 30-40 less than my 5 min power for a 10, and probably 50 watts lower for a 25. I have no doubt may differ by a fair amount if they have a poor 5 min power for example.

10's for me are difficult to pace as I don't really do many of them, so I just go out hard and try and sustain the power for the duration

As far as I know this is one of those relationships that is heavily dependent on individual physiology, i.e. you can't predict 20mins from 5mins the way you can predict 1 hour from 20mins, because you are comparing efforts that use different physiological systems. But if you were completely average, the charts suggest that your 20 min power might be about 86% of your 5 min power.

springtide9

amaferanga wrote:

You obviously know this, but you're not really making the most of training with power. Haphazardly doing intervals with irregular recovery periods to fit with Strava segments likely won't be as effective as finding a good hill or stretch of road and doing a structured set of intervals of a set length and recovery period. Time to forget about Strava I'd say.

Yes I'm aware of I'm not making the most of training with power.

Strava isn't the driver for training, it's just that my weekday rides involve popping out at lunchtime and do specific loops based on available time between meetings.
The only thing Strava provides is a bit of lunchtime motivation, although getting caught up in traffic and needing to get back in time for a meeting provides a great incentive to pedal harder!

I will look at trying to do some specific & proper intervals, but they sound a little too much like turbo sessions to me and not what I would consider enjoyable in anyone's book!

okgo

neeb wrote:

SBezza wrote:

okgo wrote:

SBezza wrote:

okgo wrote:

What are people's thoughts on finding it hard to go harder for a 10 than a 25. My best 25 mile power is exactly the same NP and AP as my best 10... I would use power to pace both efforts, so is it a case of being too conservative on the ten, or do you guys (I know some of you TT and race commenting above) find a similar issue?

I would say to conservative in the 10, you probably have some idea of what power you could do from a 20 min effort based on 5 min efforts, which would normally be higher than you could manage for a full hour.

The only time I have put out less power in a 10 than a 25 is when I have been fatigued, or am doing the club 10's as part of an interval session.

Aware there are no hard and fast rules, but I know my max 5 min to date which really felt like a max at the time, what in theory should be 20 min off the back of that?

Not too sure in percentage terms if I am honest, I think we might all be very different in this aspect. I could probably sustain 30-40 less than my 5 min power for a 10, and probably 50 watts lower for a 25. I have no doubt may differ by a fair amount if they have a poor 5 min power for example.

10's for me are difficult to pace as I don't really do many of them, so I just go out hard and try and sustain the power for the duration

As far as I know this is one of those relationships that is heavily dependent on individual physiology, i.e. you can't predict 20mins from 5mins the way you can predict 1 hour from 20mins, because you are comparing efforts that use different physiological systems. But if you were completely average, the charts suggest that your 20 min power might be about 86% of your 5 min power.

Would suggest that I'm either certainly not trying hard enough, or I'm one of those with a good 5 min power and crap 20 min/hour then as I've managed 460 for 5, 340 for 20 mins, and 340 for 60 mins, all AP - NP is more on the longer stuff, but for the ease of comparing. So it does look like either I'm pacing my 10's too much like a 25. Cheers all.

SBezza

springtide9 wrote:

I will look at trying to do some specific & proper intervals, but they sound a little too much like turbo sessions to me and not what I would consider enjoyable in anyone's book!

Training to get fitter, faster, more powerful isn't that enjoyable alot of the time. If just riding around is what you enjoy most, don't worry about what the powermeter & training peaks says.

springtide9

SBezza wrote:

springtide9 wrote:

I will look at trying to do some specific & proper intervals, but they sound a little too much like turbo sessions to me and not what I would consider enjoyable in anyone's book!

Training to get fitter, faster, more powerful isn't that enjoyable alot of the time. If just riding around is what you enjoy most, don't worry about what the powermeter & training peaks says.

I am very much aware of this... and up until about 6 months ago that was all I was doing.
I guess what I am stating is that I'm not ruling out specific intervals as I know the benefits, but I also want to try and keep a decent balance with the more enjoyable rides. The incentive is mainly for Crits next year (I did a few this year and enjoyed them).

Don't read my sceptical or non committal posts as gospel, it's just that I'm wanting to slowly move towards training with power rather than jumping in with two feet. And as you probably have guessed, I'm pretty overwhelmed by analysing and understanding the data, hence the many questions.

danowat

okgo wrote:

Would suggest that I'm either certainly not trying hard enough, or I'm one of those with a good 5 min power and crap 20 min/hour then as I've managed 460 for 5, 340 for 20 mins, and 340 for 60 mins, all AP - NP is more on the longer stuff, but for the ease of comparing. So it does look like either I'm pacing my 10's too much like a 25. Cheers all.

Is it unusual to have the same power for 20 & 60mins?, seems strange to me, there is no way I could get close to maintaining my CP20 for 60mins........

That's some impressive power though, unless you weight 120kg of course

okgo

Yeh, its a bit odd. I think perhaps another proper 20 min test/effort is in order as it should be higher logically, though I do find the pacing for 25's easier, so perhaps it is just a case of pushing harder, earlier, in a ten.

No, just about 79kg at the minute, hope to get down to 75 and keep all of the above, easier said than done though (losing the weight!).

Tom Dean

Are you actually looking at your power during the races?

okgo

Yes I do look at it. Why?

Tom Dean

:? so what are you thinking in a 10 when you're sitting on a power you know you can do for 60 minutes?

okgo

Good point I suppose. Honest truth is that when I was doing it, it felt like all I could give. However the two 10's I've done have been in the middle of high volume periods, and the hour efforts have been when my legs felt slightly better.

Might go and try 2x20 tonight to see if I can derive a better figure. Just a trouble finding somewhere good to do it (that isn't a TT course - dark etc) that is appropriate.

jibberjim

okgo wrote:

Might go and try 2x20 tonight to see if I can derive a better figure. Just a trouble finding somewhere good to do it (that isn't a TT course - dark etc) that is appropriate.

Kingston to Chertsey is 20 minutes of almost guaranteed uninterupted riding if you go at 8:30, I've matched my 10 power in training on that route.

Tom Dean

Ah ok if you were tired etc. I wouldn't read too much into the figures. 105% FTP might be a good starting point to aim for for 20 mins.

okgo

Yes, just seen this Jim, not sure my fillings can take that road again

Obviously the figures are not such a worry for races as you either can stick the pace or you can't, but for the time trials, which I plan to do many more of next year, it would be nice to know how hard I can go without blowing up. Still, got all winter to work that out!

Alex_Simmons/RST

springtide9 wrote:

The question is whether this statement holds true for other types rides, specifically where intervals are involved.

Yes it does. Indeed pre calculating the Normalised Power for an intended interval workout of about an hour's duration is a good way to establish whether or not such a workout is indeed feasible to begin with.

If you are seeing a reported IF of ~ 1.1 from about an hour's worth of training, then at least one of these three things has occurred:
- the power data is incorrect (e.g. torque zero not properly set, or slope calibration not correct);
- normalised power has been incorrectly calculated (e.g. smart recording is in use, or using software that doesn't correctly calculate it);
- your FTP is higher than you think it is (assuming above two don't apply, then will almost certainly be the case).