I think I may know why drivers hate cyclists in the UK...
Comments
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davmaggs wrote:Has anyone compared the nature of the Dutch commute with the UK one?
I'm wondering based (only on a couple of trips there) on my observation of the many racks of bikes at the stations if we see the Dutch in civvies because those cyclists are only doing the 'last mile' commute e.g they get the train into the city, and then ride the last part using a bike that they leave at the station/work, whereas we have a culture of long distance commuting. Or, that in many Dutch towns perhaps workplaces are near homes?
Paging Libraio to thread...0 -
There are two stretches on my return commute where I can hit 30mph.
We don't need to be accepted by motorists, just avoided.I used to just ride my bike to work but now I find myself going out looking for bigger and bigger hills.0 -
So based on the images posted, we all need to be riding in long unsuitable coats wearing no helmets?
The only thing wrong with cycling in the UK is other road users attitudes. I really think that motorists who see a young fit lad clad in lycra minding his own business whilst gunning it along at 25mph are simply jealous. They instantly think "Tw@t" while they sit in their jam listening to Chris Moyles laughing at his own jokes over and over, day after day. It's a sad existence and one I was glad to get out of a few years back.
The question is, why do most people in this country think that serious cyclists in lycra are tw@ts? There is no justifiable reason.Ribble Stealth/SRAM Force
2007 Specialized Allez (Double) FCN - 30 -
fossyant wrote:Keyser__Soze wrote:The term 'lycra lout' annoys me - it's usually the lycra-clad cyclists obeying the rules of the road, stopping at red lights etc, whereas those in civvies or generic sports kit run the lights.
I'd echo that. The more 'serious' cyclists behave.
I notice this a lot on my commute too. Albeit i do wear civvies due to the short commute into work.Cannondale SS Evo Team
Kona Jake CX
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I think, if there were continuous routes where people could cycle in as relaxed a fashion as they clearly are in that first picture (cycle path wide enough for two well-separated cyclists!! In the same direction!!!) they they would do so in this country just as they do in Denmark. There aren't, so (in general) they don't. So you see more of the assertive and/or the dedicated. I would imagine that there are still such people in Denmark, and I hope they do still blast along at 30mph if they want to, but they are outnumbered by people such as those in the photo.
I am a dedicated cyclist sometimes, with the lycra and the speed, and I love it. I am also a person on a bike sometimes, with the coat and the phone, and I love that too.
People in cars (motorists? people with a *passion* for motoring? most abused term ever) just "hate" (in a low-level kind of way) anyone that gets in their way, that they cannot relate to on a non-thinking level. Like most people do. They also "hate" the people in your first photo, if they are on the road, in the same way. You solve that by getting more of these pople in cars to also be people on bikes. And you do *that* by making them more comfortable on bikes. Not by having a go at the people in lycra.White Condor Italia 2011
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Yes.davmaggs wrote:Has anyone compared the nature of the Dutch commute with the UK one?
http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/20 ... s-too.html
Exactly.bracketed wrote:I think, if there were continuous routes where people could cycle in as relaxed a fashion as they clearly are in that first picture (cycle path wide enough for two well-separated cyclists!! In the same direction!!!) they they would do so in this country just as they do in Denmark...You solve that by getting more of these pople in cars to also be people on bikes. And you do *that* by making them more comfortable on bikes. Not by having a go at the people in lycra.0 -
A British driver would probably see the pictures of the Dutch cyclists and complain that none of them are wearing helmets or hi-viz and so are not fit to be on the road in the first place.0
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I had fish and chips for dinner last night, watched Murrey win and slept on the sofa with the dog.....far more exciting that this thread.0
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I think it's really an entrenched class prejudice. Go back a few decades and the bicycle was transport for the working class while those who could afford a motor car were clearly their betters. Class explains pretty much everything that's wrong with this country including labour relations, inept management etc.
(I could of course be talking crap).0 -
JamesB5446 wrote:
Yes.davmaggs wrote:Has anyone compared the nature of the Dutch commute with the UK one?
http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/20 ... s-too.html
Exactly.bracketed wrote:I think, if there were continuous routes where people could cycle in as relaxed a fashion as they clearly are in that first picture (cycle path wide enough for two well-separated cyclists!! In the same direction!!!) they they would do so in this country just as they do in Denmark...You solve that by getting more of these pople in cars to also be people on bikes. And you do *that* by making them more comfortable on bikes. Not by having a go at the people in lycra.
It seems from the blog then that the Dutch are doing lots of very short journies (Of the 91 minutes that the Dutch travel on average per day, 17 of those minutes are spent on the bicycle (19%)), whereas in the UK people tend to use the car. It tallies with my conversations over there where the Dutch I spoke to left bicycles overnight at main commute points and did the bulk of their trips by train or bus.
It seems to me that we aren't comparing like with like when talking about the UK lycra commuter who is likely to be doing distance with the dutch commuter who is doing local runs.0 -
Yep, it would be great if I could get on a simple bike, in my jeans and a coat, and bimble along in safety on a traffic free, well maintained route when I go into town to do some shopping. But I can't.
My commute is over a fairly long distance. Pottering along at 10mph would mean spending loads more time on the bike. I'd rather push on a bit and spend 15 minutes getting showered and changed rather than spend an extra 30 minutes on a 'sedate' commute.
If I lived closer to work, then yes, the option to 'bimble' would be great.0 -
Err, I suspect the latter. Given that most of the aggro seems to come from neds.... class may offer an explanation for everything that's wrong with this country, but you can offer an explanation and be wrong.SteppenHerring wrote:I think it's really an entrenched class prejudice. Go back a few decades and the bicycle was transport for the working class while those who could afford a motor car were clearly their betters. Class explains pretty much everything that's wrong with this country including labour relations, inept management etc.
(I could have course be talking crap).
Which is not to say that class doesn't have something to do with it, but the idea that it's just high class motorists looking down on low class cyclists is patently ridiculous.0 -
Cheaper and more efficient PT would help.
What's the point of cycling to the station to then get a train if a) it costs as much as if you drove anyway and b) is probably less reliable than driving.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Cheaper and more efficient PT would help.
What's the point of cycling to the station to then get a train if a) it costs as much as if you drove anyway and b) is probably less reliable than driving.
Couldn't agree more. The privitisation of the rail networks was one of the worst moves ever. It's such a fundamental public service, it should be run at no profit and should NEVER have been sold off.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:What's the point of cycling to the station to then get a train if a) it costs as much as if you drove anyway and b) is probably less reliable than driving.
And once you're at the station, you have the problem of what to do with your bike...0 -
In Germany the trains are lovely and cheap and you can take bikes on them. And the guards wear dead cool uniforms.
Average commute in the Uk is 8.7 miles (2005 figures). In cities it's 6.5 miles. Easy doable on bike for most people.davmaggs wrote:It seems from the blog then that the Dutch are doing lots of very short journies (Of the 91 minutes that the Dutch travel on average per day, 17 of those minutes are spent on the bicycle (19%)), whereas in the UK people tend to use the car. It tallies with my conversations over there where the Dutch I spoke to left bicycles overnight at main commute points and did the bulk of their trips by train or bus.
It seems to me that we aren't comparing like with like when talking about the UK lycra commuter who is likely to be doing distance with the dutch commuter who is doing local runs.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... towork.pdf
Average distance from home to work in Holland is 10.5 miles. (2001 figures)
http://www.cbs.nl/NR/rdonlyres/6114E8DF ... 02e105.pdf0 -
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I've always wondered if some of the problem is because drivers sub-consciously see cyclists as queue-jumping.
Everyone knows there's no bigger crime.0 -
Well, it's all relative. Much cheaper than the UK, for what you get.Rick Chasey wrote:They're not that cheap in Germany...
Good though.0 -
JamesB5446 wrote:In Germany the trains are lovely and cheap and you can take bikes on them. And the guards wear dead cool uniforms.
Average commute in the Uk is 8.7 miles (2005 figures). In cities it's 6.5 miles. Easy doable on bike for most people.davmaggs wrote:It seems from the blog then that the Dutch are doing lots of very short journies (Of the 91 minutes that the Dutch travel on average per day, 17 of those minutes are spent on the bicycle (19%)), whereas in the UK people tend to use the car. It tallies with my conversations over there where the Dutch I spoke to left bicycles overnight at main commute points and did the bulk of their trips by train or bus.
It seems to me that we aren't comparing like with like when talking about the UK lycra commuter who is likely to be doing distance with the dutch commuter who is doing local runs.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... towork.pdf
Average distance from home to work in Holland is 10.5 miles. (2001 figures)
http://www.cbs.nl/NR/rdonlyres/6114E8DF ... 02e105.pdf
It's still not the point when compared to why the British go for lycra on their commute (as per the start of this post)
The Dutch (as this blog states) are doing a blended commute, along with lots of local errands. It would appear therefore that what they have achieved is the infrastructure and culture to do blended commutes. They wear casual clothes because they are doing small distances. This never comes up in the standard glorification of the Dutch model.
This is important because if we did lay Dutch style lanes all over the place, then we have to question whether they'd really be used by the distance commuters. Our culture means that they'd be unsuitable for more than a relaxed trundle.0 -
davmaggs wrote:JamesB5446 wrote:In Germany the trains are lovely and cheap and you can take bikes on them. And the guards wear dead cool uniforms.
Average commute in the Uk is 8.7 miles (2005 figures). In cities it's 6.5 miles. Easy doable on bike for most people.davmaggs wrote:It seems from the blog then that the Dutch are doing lots of very short journies (Of the 91 minutes that the Dutch travel on average per day, 17 of those minutes are spent on the bicycle (19%)), whereas in the UK people tend to use the car. It tallies with my conversations over there where the Dutch I spoke to left bicycles overnight at main commute points and did the bulk of their trips by train or bus.
It seems to me that we aren't comparing like with like when talking about the UK lycra commuter who is likely to be doing distance with the dutch commuter who is doing local runs.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... towork.pdf
Average distance from home to work in Holland is 10.5 miles. (2001 figures)
http://www.cbs.nl/NR/rdonlyres/6114E8DF ... 02e105.pdf
It's still not the point when compared to why the British go for lycra on their commute (as per the start of this post)
The Dutch (as this blog states) are doing a blended commute, along with lots of local errands. It would appear therefore that what they have achieved is the infrastructure and culture to do blended commutes. They wear casual clothes because they are doing small distances. This never comes up in the standard glorification of the Dutch model.
This is important because if we did lay Dutch style lanes all over the place, then we have to question whether they'd really be used by the distance commuters. Our culture means that they'd be unsuitable for more than a relaxed trundle.
ah ah ah... I never mentioned Lycra, you guys did.
I was more talking about "the guy" who, whilst actually is travelling to work seems to forget this and looks and acts like he is in some tour DeFrance race.0 -
Which blog states they are doing a blended commute?
Of course the lanes would be used by distance commuters, why would they not?0 -
Glasgow Calum wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Cheaper and more efficient PT would help.
What's the point of cycling to the station to then get a train if a) it costs as much as if you drove anyway and b) is probably less reliable than driving.
Couldn't agree more. The privitisation of the rail networks was one of the worst moves ever. It's such a fundamental public service, it should be run at no profit and should NEVER have been sold off.
The subsidy is five times the equivalent under BR, it is effectively a giveaway to the shareholders, and the payment packages for management.
Privatisation is a three card trick on a grand scale, this applies to all the utilities,or billing companies as they should be known0 -
OP: nice hypothesis, but I'm afraid it's a fail from me.0
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JamesB5446 wrote:Which blog states they are doing a blended commute?
Of course the lanes would be used by distance commuters, why would they not?
The link that you posted said that:
"Of the 91 minutes that the Dutch travel on average per day, 17 of those minutes are spent on the bicycle (19%)"
Edit; forgot to answer the other question. I wouldn't use Dutch style cycle lanes because I want to do more than a slow amble.0 -
davmaggs wrote:JamesB5446 wrote:Which blog states they are doing a blended commute?
Of course the lanes would be used by distance commuters, why would they not?
The link that you posted said that:
"Of the 91 minutes that the Dutch travel on average per day, 17 of those minutes are spent on the bicycle (19%)"
Edit; forgot to answer the other question. I wouldn't use Dutch style cycle lanes because I want to do more than a slow amble.
That could be down to people who only use a bike and those who only use a car, it is an average after all.
Realistically though, given the number of bikes parked at stations they must be mixing transport modes.0 -
dylanfernley wrote:Glasgow Calum wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Cheaper and more efficient PT would help.
What's the point of cycling to the station to then get a train if a) it costs as much as if you drove anyway and b) is probably less reliable than driving.
Couldn't agree more. The privitisation of the rail networks was one of the worst moves ever. It's such a fundamental public service, it should be run at no profit and should NEVER have been sold off.
The subsidy is five times the equivalent under BR, it is effectively a giveaway to the shareholders, and the payment packages for management.
Privatisation is a three card trick on a grand scale, this applies to all the utilities,or billing companies as they should be known
Not trains, but I always thought it ironic that there are busses in London run by this company:
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Overheard in the office today following someone commenting on a cyclist being hit by a car.
"Cyclists shouldn't be on the road. Same for motorbikes. Bloody dangerous things. I don't know why anyone would get on them in the first place".
And these are well educated intellegent people.
That about sums up why we have so much trouble. They want the roads to themselves, and probably without other cars into the bargain.None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.0 -
daviesee wrote:Overheard in the office today following someone commenting on a cyclist being hit by a car.
"Cyclists shouldn't be on the road. Same for motorbikes. Bloody dangerous things. I don't know why anyone would get on them in the first place".
And these are well educated intellegent people.
That about sums up why we have so much trouble. They want the roads to themselves, and probably without other cars into the bargain.
well educated they may be, but intelligent ......0 -
Glasgow Calum wrote:ah ah ah... I never mentioned Lycra, you guys did.
I was more talking about "the guy" who, whilst actually is travelling to work seems to forget this and looks and acts like he is in some tour DeFrance race.
Err what do you mean by looks like he is in the Tour de France if not referring to how he is dressed?- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0
