I think I may know why drivers hate cyclists in the UK...

Glasgow Calum

v'e been think about why commuting drivers and cyclists "don't mix" so well in the UK as they do in Denmark, Holland etc etc.

Now of course there are a plethora of reasons why (education, infrastructure etc etc)
however I think there may be one fundamental thing that is making it so "us" and "them".

This is your typical Dutch/Danish commuter. People who are dressed nice and are clearly cycling to work.


However, more often than not, this is what a British cycling commuter looks like!


Full tour de France outfit, head down, going 30mph, aggressive attitude and (some) jumping red lights.

I'm just wondering if we aren't helping ourselves here? If we want drivers to be more like our continental counterparts, shouldn't we be more like their cyclists?

Phil_D

What a crock of horse manure. I see many commuters not wearing clothing like that or cycling in that manner. I'm one of them. I also never hear any cyclist-hating drivers complaining about what the cyclists wear.

jds_1981

& you'll notice the dutch cyclists and pedestrians mingling in that picture you show, which over here makes the pedestrians hate cyclists.
You may have a point on the "us" "them" - over 'there' most drivers also cycle regularly.

Glasgow Calum

Phil_D wrote:

What a crock of horse manure. I see many commuters not wearing clothing like that or cycling in that manner. I'm one of them. I also never hear any cyclist-hating drivers complaining about what the cyclists wear.

Of course there are many who don't. I was just saying there are a surprising amount who do (on my commute anyway).
Obviously drivers don't complain about what a cyclist is wearing, my point is, is it subconsciously alienating us ?

notsoblue

I've had abuse while wearing civvies and riding my hybrid, I don't think it makes any difference. If anything, faster cyclists that can keep up with the ambient traffic speed are less of a hindrance to motorists than slow ones, in rush hour London at least.

I think any attempt to rationalise the 'hatred' the British motorist has for cyclists is pretty much bollocks.

Glasgow Calum

I just want to see a UK where cycling is seen as a viable (and not frowned upon) commuting tool, the way it is over there. and I am wondering whether despite actually doing the right thing and cycling to work, some of the more "tour de france" commuters are hurting the bigger goal?

Maybe not but worth a thought.

hegyestomi

Not sure I barely see any people like that doing 30mph on my London commute (I probably overtook them a long time ago ), not to mention RLJ!
Also I can't see what difference can an "aggressive" cyclist do to me while I'm driving around: they won't endanger me at all (unlike aggressive drivers towards cyclists) . Also in the cities bikes are so much more faster than cars: this means that you can't project your anger to a specific cyclist as they probably long gone before you stopped at the third red lights in the row.

PS: Not that red lights and not that row.

Kieran_Burns

notsoblue wrote:

I've had abuse while wearing civvies and riding my hybrid, I don't think it makes any difference. If anything, faster cyclists that can keep up with the ambient traffic speed are less of a hindrance to motorists than slow ones, in rush hour London at least.

I think any attempt to rationalise the 'hatred' the British motorist has for cyclists is pretty much bollocks.

Well.

You WERE riding a hybrid.

keyser__soze

The term 'lycra lout' annoys me - it's usually the lycra-clad cyclists obeying the rules of the road, stopping at red lights etc, whereas those in civvies or generic sports kit run the lights.

cookeeemonster

I know what you mean but for many people, cycling in ordinary clothes isn't realistic unless you live within a few miles of work otherwise you'd sweat buckets and look a mess when you get to work.

many people in london already wear normal clothes for cycling - they live within a few miles and so can do that, else if you live a bit further than that you'll wear the gear that's most practical...and change when you get to work.

For me, infrastructure is everything if we wanna get to the dutch standards...but some people will always live far enough away that they'll have to go fast and wear the lycra to make their commute doable, and they'll probably ignore the slower cycle paths filled with wobbly nodders (as the SCR lot would describe them) and keep to the roads anyway.

incidentally I tried the normal clothes look when I started cycling back in march - dont work on an 18 mile each way commute. I've gradually got more and more of the cyclist look as I've gone along...I just had to stop fighting and go with it

notsoblue

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Well.

You WERE riding a hybrid.

No no, you misunderstand, it was abuse from motorists, not other cyclists...

jonomc4

Keyser__Soze wrote:

The term 'lycra lout' annoys me - it's usually the lycra-clad cyclists obeying the rules of the road, stopping at red lights etc, whereas those in civvies or generic sports kit run the lights.

+1

This is definitely my general experience - it tends to be the people dressed in casual clothes who are the ones to jump red lights and cycle on pavements. Those of the lycra fraternity seem to be far better behaved on roads and then also tens to travel faster with the traffic causing less delays.

bigmat

Phil_D wrote:

What a crock of horse manure.

+1

slowbike

I used to "commute" 3-4 miles on a hybrid - it was mostly cyclepath and I tend to ride a reasonable pace where I'm working ... which meant I was hot by the time I got to work ... this was just about bearable - and fine for the homeward journey where I could sweat bucketloads knowing a change of clothes was waiting ...

Now I ride 10-11 miles on a roadie .. it is all road and I still try and ride a reasonable pace - I have to work a lot of it because there are climbs (although these have been much easier this year!) ... I have no choice but to wear a different set of clothes for riding in - it would be unpleasant for myself and my colleagues if I were to sit in sweat drenched clothes all day ..

The longer ride started out last year with a lot of cars seemingly getting too close on the overtake - 4 or 5 per ride would be a reasonable figure ..
This year the number of close passes is insignificant - perhaps its me being more confident & faster or the drivers being used to seeing cyclists (there's more of us now - but not the same time/direction!) ... or a combination thereof ..
Interestingly, I did a slow ride back on friday with the mrs - and got carved up a couple of times ...

airbag

you've got cause and effect completely arse about face.

The scariest cycle I've had in a long time was coming home with a slight knee injury - just enough to reduce my speed without being bad enough to stop me cycling entirely. Even though I was still outpacing cars point to point, the impatience and reckless overtakes were staggering.

When it's easy for casual cyclists/non-cyclists, it'll be seen as something normal people can do and pro-cycling measures will be seen as pro-people measures. When conditions scare casual cyclists off, of course the only ones left will be the obsessives, and pro-cycling measures are seen as pandering to a small number of obsessives.

TommyEss

Well I'm potentially up for an assignment over in Denmark, so I'll be sure to report back. I've got enough lycra for a 5 day commute come rain or shine, and since I sweat when I'm riding, I've never seen the appeal of riding in "normal" street clothes, let alone office wear.

As a broad sweeping generalisation, the majority of guys and gals in lycra ride more than just for commuting, which means they're more likely to ride in close group formations, and thus have developed better bike handling, signalling, awareness and all that jazz. The people who ride to and from work and that's it, only have the behaviour of other commuters to go by and learn from, and as we've seen, that's not often a very good example to follow.

MisterMuncher

I wear bike clothing because my work gear is completely impractical to ride in (chef), and I'd like to arrive to work in stifling heat for *hours* without already sweating like Jordan trying to spend a book token. I ride quickly, but I also ride legally and with full attention on the job at hand. And for this I get lumped in with some quasi-fictional cult extant only in this overindulged hackette's mind? Balls to that.

Lycra lout is a nonsense term, a creation of the media. See also "hoodie". That such patently asinine generalisations are given house room gives you a pretty solid idea of what integrity the press possess. Can we start calling sales reps grinding out every inch of the roadway and driving like ganches "Audi Arseholes"? "Beemer bar-stewards"?

This is kinda like that Mail article mentioned elsewhere: It's a little hard to take generalised abuse about one's behaviour from an employee of the Tabloid press, too. If I were them, I'd try not to shout to loudly on the guilt by association front.

(edit due to mild topic crossover)

MisterMuncher

Clearly I have completely crossed two topics in my mind. I blame motorists.

hegyestomi

Also one big difference that I noticed that roadies tend to look more over the shoulders than "nicely dressed" cyclist: this is one thing that really annoys me when people changing direction without checking at all.

Headhuunter

Glasgow Calum wrote:

v'e been think about why commuting drivers and cyclists "don't mix" so well in the UK as they do in Denmark, Holland etc etc.

Now of course there are a plethora of reasons why (education, infrastructure etc etc)
however I think there may be one fundamental thing that is making it so "us" and "them".

This is your typical Dutch/Danish commuter. People who are dressed nice and are clearly cycling to work.


However, more often than not, this is what a British cycling commuter looks like!


Full tour de France outfit, head down, going 30mph, aggressive attitude and (some) jumping red lights.

I'm just wondering if we aren't helping ourselves here? If we want drivers to be more like our continental counterparts, shouldn't we be more like their cyclists?

So you're saying that if we want to be accepted on the road by motorists (BTW why do we need to be accepted by motorists? We have as much right, if not more right to be there than them) we have to dress in civvies and anyone wearing lycra basically deserves to hated by motorists?

fossyant

Keyser__Soze wrote:

The term 'lycra lout' annoys me - it's usually the lycra-clad cyclists obeying the rules of the road, stopping at red lights etc, whereas those in civvies or generic sports kit run the lights.

I'd echo that. The more 'serious' cyclists behave.

CiB

The more I see it the more I hate with a venom the term Lycra Lout. It's lazy, clueless and too easy for any halfwitted or less journo wanting to do a clever 'oooh look at me I dislike cyclists too' bit of filler just to get the web hit count up a bit by including Lycra Lout in the first four paragraphs. Idle scum.

All the mouth-breathing knuckle draggers out there who post their thick brainless and worthless opinions about wearing lycra on these newspaper sites don't have the first chuffing clue about whatever tiny thought is trying to escape from their brains. They've never ridden more than half a mile without collapsing in a pile of their own blubber & sweat, but imagine that the only possible reason for wearing lycra is becasue we all want to look like Lance fecking Armstrong. The idea that riding 20+ miles to the office is not only possible but fun provided the right kit is available doesn't get within range of these clueless ignorant fecktards. Lycra can only mean pretentious feeble law-breaking morons to these people. They need a bloody slap as far as I'm concerned.

I'd have the phrase made illegal, just like the N word that no-one dare mention in polite company any more. It serves exactly the same purpose, to sideline and belittle a a group that individually has no comeback, but in unison can perhaps make enough noise to challenge the proponents barking mad illiterate thoughts.

</phah>

MisterMuncher

Some people have never lost the fifties/sixties mindset that bicycles are for children or holidays, and real people drive cars.

And frankly, that's their problem.

TommyEss

I always answered the lycra question at work with this:

"If I was going scuba diving, I'd wear a wetsuit. If I was performing open heart surgery, I'd wear theatre scrubs. I'm cycling, so I'm wearing cycling clothes - it's really not that difficult."

CiB

TommyEss wrote:

I always answered the lycra question at work with this:

"If I was going scuba diving, I'd wear a wetsuit. If I was performing open heart surgery, I'd wear theatre scrubs. I'm cycling, so I'm wearing cycling clothes - it's really not that difficult."

I've used similar in the past. Do you wear a suit of armour to play golf in? Boxing gloves for chess? No? Why hinder yourself for cycling then? Wasted, TBH.

MisterMuncher

Boxing gloves for chess?

twist83

Also by the looks of the picture we need to cycle and use our Mobile phones while wearing clothing that for anything other than a flat few mile pootle is completely useless.

IMO Motorists are lucky they get to see me in Lycra look awesome with my sweet calfs pounding the pedals. Tickets to the leg gun show are free morning and evening.

JamesB5446

If we didn't have to share the road with idiots who overtake within a few inches of you than we could go at a slower pace and wear our normal clothes.

Holland has more cyclists, and more respect for cyclists because they invested in the infrastructure. It really is that simple.

davmaggs

Has anyone compared the nature of the Dutch commute with the UK one?

I'm wondering based (only on a couple of trips there) on my observation of the many racks of bikes at the stations if we see the Dutch in civvies because those cyclists are only doing the 'last mile' commute e.g they get the train into the city, and then ride the last part using a bike that they leave at the station/work, whereas we have a culture of long distance commuting. Or, that in many Dutch towns perhaps workplaces are near homes?

rick_chasey

davmaggs wrote:

Or, that in many Dutch towns perhaps workplaces are near homes?

'The commute' as an entity that is a big part of your life is much more of a thing in England.

That's not to say it doesn't happen. What you don't see on these forums are the 10km tailbacks on the motorways EVERY DAY in the Netherlands.

But all school kids pretty much go to their nearest school, so no rat runs, etc.

Any urban travel is done via bike since it's the most convenient, quick, and stress and hassle free.


The main reason cyclists in Holland don't ride in lycra is because they don't go fast enough to break a sweat.

rolf_f

davmaggs wrote:

Has anyone compared the nature of the Dutch commute with the UK one?

I'm wondering based (only on a couple of trips there) on my observation of the many racks of bikes at the stations if we see the Dutch in civvies because those cyclists are only doing the 'last mile' commute e.g they get the train into the city, and then ride the last part using a bike that they leave at the station/work, whereas we have a culture of long distance commuting. Or, that in many Dutch towns perhaps workplaces are near homes?

It probably wouldn't be a very effective commute if they got the train into the city, got on their bikes and then left their bikes at the station! I think those bikes are the ones where people have ridden into the city centre and got on a train to another location.