Powermeter choices

Doobz

You are right. Someone has to take a risk.

Like I mentioned in one my posts. I have trained with my PT for a year not even knowing about drift or having to recalibrate etc. All this "tinfoil hat" stuff is pretty crazy. At the end of the day I just receive my prescribed training plan, go out, make the numbers and forward the data to my coach.

From the initial lab tests last year, till the one at the end of season, there has seen a big progression in my numbers and that's from a "badly looked after pet"..... Can you see what I am getting at?

Credibility in one mans eyes may be an opportunity in another's. Remember.. Mistakes are what makes people and products better if they are corrected / learn from their mistakes.

Look at SRM for example. They denied for ages that the drift issue was acceptable in their units and then after a while realised that the problem was down to their manufacturing.. Hows their credibility. Seems fine to me?

I have paid for a Power2Max - Its due for delivery in a few weeks and when I go back into full time training again after my end of season break I will let you know how it is. It will be in a real world scenario without all this bullshit "aero" testing bla bla..

doyler78

Just because you don't see something as important doesn't mean that it isn't important to others. When there is a discussion around whether someone spends their money on something or not I tend to be believe that if as many people contribute as possible with as many different opinions as possible then it may make the decision more complicated but at least there's a chance it will be better informed. It is not for you or I to decide what is or is not important to the OP therefore what you see as OTT may actually turn out to be important to the OP and even if it's not at least he got the chance to discard it from a basis of knowledge and not through ignorance.

As for aero testing - well given the cost of wind tunnel testing I think at least some people will very interested in using their powermeter which they already own as their own personal wind tunnel. Can't beat something for nothing. Again goes back to what is important to the OP and not you

Please do let us all know how you get on with your new P2M and good luck with the rest of the training. Sounds like things have been going well for you.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Doobz wrote:

One thing I would like to say is Alex and Rick, there is no doubt you have VAST amounts of knowledge in Training, Coaching, Power Meters etc and I respect and appreciate that.

What you don't have though is first hand experience with running a Power2Max unit. You are using second hand old out dated information off the internet to make assumptions on a new "to be released" product.. It comes across as a bit unprofessional.

You are making assumptions about what I do or do not know.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Doobz wrote:

Look at SRM for example. They denied for ages that the drift issue was acceptable in their units and then after a while realised that the problem was down to their manufacturing.

Can you show me where they denied that units had an issue?

It was well acknowledged that their early amateur units, which only had two strain gauges, were not as accurate. But then they never promoted them as such either, and it was clear you were buying a meter with the 5% error rating as stated by SRM. Those units have not been available for longer than most other power meters have been on the market.

ric/rstsport

Doobz wrote:

One thing I would like to say is Alex and Rick, there is no doubt you have VAST amounts of knowledge in Training, Coaching, Power Meters etc and I respect and appreciate that.

What you don't have though is first hand experience with running a Power2Max unit. You are using second hand old out dated information off the internet to make assumptions on a new "to be released" product.. It comes across as a bit unprofessional.

You're right i don't have first hand knowledge of running a P2M unit. I don't think i've ever said otherwise. On the other hand, i've been using SRMs since 1993, Power Tap since they were in beta, Polar chain system, Ergomo, and some others. I've witnessed first hand the issues that have arisen, and was one of the first people to talk about the epoxy issue with the SRMs. I've seen poor electronics and naff bearings in Power Tap.

When power meters first hit the market properly i was prepared to try and take a risk with various units. some of these units required VERY careful looking after. However, now that the market is reasonably well established, and given the fact that i like accurate data compared to RNG i'm not prepared to take a risk with newer units (with my own cash). I recall the stories about how Ergomo had no issues and that just measuring one side was fine. it wasn't. I now hear lots of stories about P2M and how the drift doesn't even occur (but apparently it does). So my professional opinion is simply that i would not pay for these new units yet. i am not prepared to take a chance on them. i would rather other people take their chance.

ric/rstsport

Doobz wrote:

You are right. Someone has to take a risk.

Like I mentioned in one my posts. I have trained with my PT for a year not even knowing about drift or having to recalibrate etc. All this "tinfoil hat" stuff is pretty crazy. At the end of the day I just receive my prescribed training plan, go out, make the numbers and forward the data to my coach.

From the initial lab tests last year, till the one at the end of season, there has seen a big progression in my numbers and that's from a "badly looked after pet"..... Can you see what I am getting at?

Is it you that said you've never zeroed the torque on your PT? I currently have 3 PTs and they all require zeroing every day without taking them out of the house (i.e., temperature stable). The zero offset moves on them all.

Great that you've had a progression, but if you haven't checked the zero offset as a minimum then you have no idea whether your data is even vaguely correct. It's not tinfoil hat stuff at all. This is the basics.

Ric

amaferanga

This is a genuine question that I'd like to know the answer to. Are there a vast number of people (i.e. a significant percentage of P2M owners) who are complaining about drift issues, both temperature and non-temperature related?

I ask because I did a lot of Googling before ordering my P2M and I honestly only found one or two guys on the Wattage list who complained (one of whom is apparently an expert on everything and complains about everything so I didn't take that much notice of his bleating).

ric/rstsport

i noted a few complaints in various places. i'm not sure who the person was who "apparently an expert on everything..." but some of the people who made noises are people i take seriously.

like i said, i've been involved with power meters almost since they started being a commercial entity. i've seen some utter mess ups and followed the progression of most meters from the beginnings to either success or commercial failure. every single meter has had teething problems.

Given that P2Max failed to admit they had a problem at first, but then came out with a fix for a problem that didn't exist (who knows if it works or not yet???) i'm extremely reticent to suggest using one. I would *NOT* use one as the sole collector of my data.

here's a report http://www.bikeradar.com/blog/article/t ... als-32678/
or
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... s-12-45801

cheers
ric

rabk

amaferanga wrote:

This is a genuine question that I'd like to know the answer to. Are there a vast number of people (i.e. a significant percentage of P2M owners) who are complaining about drift issues, both temperature and non-temperature related?

I ask because I did a lot of Googling before ordering my P2M and I honestly only found one or two guys on the Wattage list who complained (one of whom is apparently an expert on everything and complains about everything so I didn't take that much notice of his bleating).

My first P2M unit certainly drifted by a huge amount (moving by 40 - 50 units). I knew very quickly that it was not right having used the Powertap.

Sent it back. The unit I received as a warranty replacement seems pretty stable (for a P2M) it moves from a reading of 1081 to 1089 within 10 minutes and then stabilises.

I have checked it thereafter on rides and it doesn't appear to move much at all, perhaps 1 unit either way. I believe 1 unit relates to approximately 1.5 watts, so this seems acceptable to me

The data collected seems accurate and comparable with the Powertap

The guys at P2M, were good to deal with, no issue at all in returning, prompt despatch of new unit - clearly disappointing having to return the first one, but I was impressed by the service given.

Doobz

Rabk wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

This is a genuine question that I'd like to know the answer to. Are there a vast number of people (i.e. a significant percentage of P2M owners) who are complaining about drift issues, both temperature and non-temperature related?

I ask because I did a lot of Googling before ordering my P2M and I honestly only found one or two guys on the Wattage list who complained (one of whom is apparently an expert on everything and complains about everything so I didn't take that much notice of his bleating).

My first P2M unit certainly drifted by a huge amount (moving by 40 - 50 units). I knew very quickly that it was not right having used the Powertap.

Sent it back. The unit I received as a warranty replacement seems pretty stable (for a P2M) it moves from a reading of 1081 to 1089 within 10 minutes and then stabilises.

I have checked it thereafter on rides and it doesn't appear to move much at all, perhaps 1 unit either way. I believe 1 unit relates to approximately 1.5 watts, so this seems acceptable to me

The data collected seems accurate and comparable with the Powertap

The guys at P2M, were good to deal with, no issue at all in returning, prompt despatch of new unit - clearly disappointing having to return the first one, but I was impressed by the service given.

P2M have sold thousands of these units and from what I gather there are very few who have complained about serious drift.

To be fair. If there are riders in this years Olympics using the newer version then they cant be that bad eh? One of them has even gone on to take a Silver medal!!



If these units are so bad then why do some athletes have then on both their TT and Road Bikes?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Logical fallacies:

1. That when something appears a on a Pro's bike, therefore it must be the best/good.
Reality - Pros use what they are given/told to use. Only have to see the sub-optimal choices of plenty of other items of equipment on Pro's bikes to know that. This of course does not mean that the item is not good, but the fallacy is that it implies that it must be good. Many pros don't have a clue about the quality of a power meter (some do of course).

2. That lots of people buy something, therefore it must be good.
Again this does not mean something is not good, but it is not evidence of quality. For example, one only has to look at any scam product that has sold thousands to know this is a fallacy. This is not to suggest P2M is a scam product (far from it) but merely to demonstrate that people buying stuff is not an indicator of quality (or in this case - accuracy) of a given product.

As for not many "complaining" - well it's possible that:

i. yep, by and large these units are great, which would be terrific

ii a high proportion of buyers of P2M are first time PM users and are blissfully ignorant. Those who are reporting issues are the ones that know what to to look for. On this latter point, I had a conversation recently with one user who was adamant their unit was great, even though they had not verified the quality of the data. Then I asked them to do a few checks. Then it became apparent that all was not so rosy.

I do this with all power meters my clients use, no matter if they are an SRM, Quarq, PT etc. I don't discriminate - if there is an issue, we go back to manufacturer get it sorted.

One thing that seems good is they are providing support and replacing units. That helps.

Trust, but verify. Trust has to be earned though.

TONY.M

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Logical fallacies:

1. That when something appears a on a Pro's bike, therefore it must be the best/good.
Reality - Pros use what they are given/told to use.

You have been around long enough to know wheat from chaff Alex!

It never ceases to amuse me that some people forget that the pros are sponsored by equipment manufacturers and they have a job to do of effectively advertising the products they are paid to use by competing, and of course have a few well written lines spoon fed to them to be mentioned when called upon i.e. "this frame/wheelset/fork is the best out there and is so versatile being super stiff yet extremely comfortable and is the best of worlds for every scenario."

Remember that some pros even wore power balance bands not so long ago with some even praising them. Hillarious, as I really can't imagine a single one of them being in any way impressed! Good old marketing.

wacka

Why not wait for the Garmin Vector? Although it might be a long wait!!

rozzer32

Wacka wrote:

Why not wait for the Garmin Vector? Although it might be a long wait!!

Hahaha behave, I'll be able to afford SRM version 10 before Vector hits the market.

doyler78

Wacka wrote:

Why not wait for the Garmin Vector? Although it might be a long wait!!

Given Garmin's history with product launches I'd be expecting at least a year for them to sort out the betaware they release though given the delays perhaps they have learned their lesson. Still wouldn't jump in straight away. Leaving aside the technical challenges they face of producing a device that can produce sufficiently accurate and consistent power data perhaps the greatest challenge is producing a device that can actually stand up to real world use. Big challenges, big risk. The price would have to be very tempting before I'd throw my money at it and I don't think it will. The R & D costs are mounting every day this product doesn't make it to market, costs that they will have to recoup.

Alex_Simmons/RST

TONY.M wrote:

You have been around long enough to know wheat from chaff Alex!

It never ceases to amuse me that some people forget that the pros are sponsored by equipment manufacturers and they have a job to do of effectively advertising the products they are paid to use by competing,

A small example I can use publicly. I coached a rider to a world masters hour record. He was sponsored by many a provider of bike related equipment and services.

When I was doing the testing analysis on equipment choice, it became pretty clear that his "aero" helmet was going to cost him quite a bit of distance on the hour compared to the best choice. That wasn't an easy conversation to have with his helmet sponsor, but ultimately the choice was made to not use the sponsor's product. There were other items used that were not optimal either, but the impact was much smaller and so a decision was taken to not change those, as it is sponsors after all that make these things possible with their funding and other support.

Ironically, it was through using a reliable and accurate power meter that enabled these sorts of analyses to be made.

rozzer32

So which power meter is it I'm meant to buy?

Doobz

rozzer32 wrote:

So which power meter is it I'm meant to buy?

Judging by the feedback from the people who know more than everyone else, I'd say none..

Did you see this on DCRM Blog?

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2012/09/stag ... crank.html