Museeuw talks...

esafosfina

Ex team-mate of mine has this to say:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/museeuw ... ast-riders

Thoughts and response anyone? Is an amnesty long overdue? Interested to hear your thoughts...

hstiles

I think an amnesty might work if guilty riders agreed to hand back a token percentage of their prize money.

esafosfina

hstiles wrote:

I think an amnesty might work if guilty riders agreed to hand back a token percentage of their prize money.

Difficult to do retrospectively, unfortunately! I don't know what the answer is... if there is one...

hstiles

It could work. Either you come clean, hand back 5-10% of your prize money to show you're sorry and be absolcved of your sins. Otherwise, if you;re found out at a later date, we'll really go to town on you.

I think we'd be amazed at the riders that admit to previous use of PEDs

esafosfina

hstiles wrote:

It could work. Either you come clean, hand back 5-10% of your prize money to show you're sorry and be absolcved of your sins. Otherwise, if you;re found out at a later date, we'll really go to town on you.

I think we'd be amazed at the riders that admit to previous use of PEDs

Yep, there's some names out there that would really piss on one's parade!

RichN95.

hstiles wrote:

It could work. Either you come clean, hand back 5-10% of your prize money to show you're sorry and be absolcved of your sins. Otherwise, if you;re found out at a later date, we'll really go to town on you.

To what end though? You can't change the past. What happened happened. Hounding a retired rider who has nothing to do with the sport anymore and can't pay back the money since his restaurant went bust isn't going to help anyone. Those still in the sport will just deny and watch each others' backs. Then no-one will get found out at a later date.

And who's going to pay for all this chasing and especially all the court cases? And are you going to believe everything everyone says or just the bits which fit into your preset ideas? Take Museeuw himself - he says he only doped in the last year or two of his career as he was getting? Is this true or false?

People talk about 'truth and reconcilliation' but really they want 'gossip and retribution'.

ratsbeyfus

RichN95 wrote:

hstiles wrote:

It could work. Either you come clean, hand back 5-10% of your prize money to show you're sorry and be absolcved of your sins. Otherwise, if you;re found out at a later date, we'll really go to town on you.

To what end though? You can't change the past. What happened happened. Hounding a retired rider who has nothing to do with the sport anymore and can't pay back the money since his restaurant went bust isn't going to help anyone. Those still in the sport will just deny and watch each others' backs. Then no-one will get found out at a later date.

And who's going to pay for all this chasing and especially all the court cases? And are you going to believe everything everyone says or just the bits which fit into your preset ideas? Take Museeuw himself - he says he only doped in the last year or two of his career as he was getting? Is this true or false?

People talk about 'truth and reconcilliation' but really they want 'gossip and retribution'.

Couldn't agree more... So 'esafosfina' you must've known about JM? Dabbled yourself? Spill the beans... no-one will tell!

mididoctors

I reckon an amnesty is a good idea

you have this one chance to come clean, if you don't and latter are found out then you are banned from the sport forever, this goes for partial confessions that are found out to be false. The point here is to target dopers who wish to remain in the sport as DS etc and have not dealt with their past, IE not hound every retired rider just those who stay in sport.

Also from "then on"any new blood/oxygen vector doping by current riders is a lifetime ban

knedlicky

If you have an amnesty, you all then start off with a clean sheet, offenders and non-offenders.
So if you are all going to start off with a clean sheet, what’s the point in anybody admitting anything?

The argument that if at a later date you’re found out not to have stood up, then the book will be thrown at you, won’t work, because anti-doping agencies will never bother researching farther back in time than any amnesty.

I think Museeuw’s proposal isn’t much different to what some other riders have weakly said – we need a new start, it’s in the past, let’s just forget it.
It’s like the Omerta’s last stand with a new hat on.

dave_1

wonder what he saw on ADRs 1989 TDF team. Were he and Eddy Plankaert using PEDs, within the team environment? In addition, Mussuew is well outside statute of limitations so it's no big risk. Perhaps he wasn't much cop all through the 1990s. And, as many have pointed out, different riders respond differently to PEDs, so race ourcomes unrelated..which though I don't totally agree with, is a valid arguement. Mussuew is trying to return to the sport perhaps and if he is , should be rejected.and Lefevre, Bruyneel, Riis should leave the sport for good

andyxm

This is a bit rich coming from Museeuw, iirc he only split the beans after being caught and then claimed he had only taken PEDs in the last year of his career, which sounds a little fanciful to me

symo

Roche only took PED's in the last year of his career too :shock:

Yellow Peril

ratsbeyfus wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

hstiles wrote:

It could work. Either you come clean, hand back 5-10% of your prize money to show you're sorry and be absolcved of your sins. Otherwise, if you;re found out at a later date, we'll really go to town on you.

To what end though? You can't change the past. What happened happened. Hounding a retired rider who has nothing to do with the sport anymore and can't pay back the money since his restaurant went bust isn't going to help anyone. Those still in the sport will just deny and watch each others' backs. Then no-one will get found out at a later date.

And who's going to pay for all this chasing and especially all the court cases? And are you going to believe everything everyone says or just the bits which fit into your preset ideas? Take Museeuw himself - he says he only doped in the last year or two of his career as he was getting? Is this true or false?

People talk about 'truth and reconcilliation' but really they want 'gossip and retribution'.

Couldn't agree more... So 'esafosfina' you must've known about JM? Dabbled yourself? Spill the beans... no-one will tell!

Come on esafosfina, the silence is deafening...

I don't see the point in punishing riders for sins so long past. However, it is important for them to confess so the full extent can be established and a better understanding of how the doping industry worked and the network of suppliers (I'm sure not so many of those have retired!) helps going forward.

I think the stigma of being a drug cheat is enough. I don't give Museeuw any credit for his riding career. P-R 96 was laughable, even the Gewiss boys would have blushed with embarrassment at that.

No_Ta_Doctor

I think we're probably coming to some sort of informal amnesty anyway. The names are being named and riders at the arse end of their careers, or who've already retired, all have the choice of facing down the allegations or managing their own stories. We'll see plenty more managed confessions along the way. Can anyone really see the UCI going through the list and issuing sanctions?

The real problem is how to deal with riders who are very much current now, and the DSs who have been operating throughout the period. Garmin isn't big enough to accommodate all of them, and if they come forward they'll be very short on career paths. Some of them are just too tainted for even a team like Garmin to touch. I doubt there's many that can see a future for Riis in cycling, not if they're interested in clean.

So is there an invisible wall in the confessions, an omerta still protecting riders with more than a year or two of their careers left? The wall isn't protecting DSs, or doctors, or team owners, but the DSs will be hard to dislodge unless we get to riders who are still racing at their peak for them.

Yellow Peril

No tA Doctor wrote:

I think we're probably coming to some sort of informal amnesty anyway. The names are being named and riders at the ars* end of their careers, or who've already retired, all have the choice of facing down the allegations or managing their own stories. We'll see plenty more managed confessions along the way. Can anyone really see the UCI going through the list and issuing sanctions?

The real problem is how to deal with riders who are very much current now, and the DSs who have been operating throughout the period. Garmin isn't big enough to accommodate all of them, and if they come forward they'll be very short on career paths. Some of them are just too tainted for even a team like Garmin to touch. I doubt there's many that can see a future for Riis in cycling, not if they're interested in clean.

So is there an invisible wall in the confessions, an omerta still protecting riders with more than a year or two of their careers left? The wall isn't protecting DSs, or doctors, or team owners, but the DSs will be hard to dislodge unless we get to riders who are still racing at their peak for them.

Ideally this should be the case but I suspect that a lot of riders are now confessing because they look at Riis who coughed the job, got to keep his TdF and has had a successful career since and think to themselves that they now have little to lose.

Cycling will be like politics where disgrace is little more than an inconvenience in a post riding career path.

No_Ta_Doctor

Yellow Peril wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

I think we're probably coming to some sort of informal amnesty anyway. The names are being named and riders at the ars* end of their careers, or who've already retired, all have the choice of facing down the allegations or managing their own stories. We'll see plenty more managed confessions along the way. Can anyone really see the UCI going through the list and issuing sanctions?

The real problem is how to deal with riders who are very much current now, and the DSs who have been operating throughout the period. Garmin isn't big enough to accommodate all of them, and if they come forward they'll be very short on career paths. Some of them are just too tainted for even a team like Garmin to touch. I doubt there's many that can see a future for Riis in cycling, not if they're interested in clean.

So is there an invisible wall in the confessions, an omerta still protecting riders with more than a year or two of their careers left? The wall isn't protecting DSs, or doctors, or team owners, but the DSs will be hard to dislodge unless we get to riders who are still racing at their peak for them.

Ideally this should be the case but I suspect that a lot of riders are now confessing because they look at Riis who coughed the job, got to keep his TdF and has had a successful career since and think to themselves that they now have little to lose.

Cycling will be like politics where disgrace is little more than an inconvenience in a post riding career path.

Well Riis got his second chance. Without second chances you cant break the silence. Would you dob in a mate who is now clean for something he did a few years ago if you knew you'd end his chance of a DS career? Or come forward yourself in the same situation?

Hopefully Riis has well and truly blown it though. We should make sure that anyone on a 2nd chance is going to be under heavy scrutiny.

Riders will only confess if they think they've got little to lose, that much has always been clear. But look at the difference between Jacksche and everyone else that kept schtum and served their ban. Even Millar didn't name names in public. The barrier for 2nd chances isn't the authorities - it's the teams.

rick_chasey

Speaking of amnesties and coming clean...

Who are you esafosfina?

You've eluded to your pro past and not too many people have bitten.

Let's hear it. We won't even judge your palmares, honest .

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Speaking of amnesties and coming clean...

Who are you esafosfina?

You've eluded to your pro past and not too many people have bitten.

Let's hear it. We won't even judge your palmares, honest .

It's not difficult to work out and his palmares can only be judged positively. (And I doubt he has much to report on the doping front).

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Speaking of amnesties and coming clean...

Who are you esafosfina?

You've eluded to your pro past and not too many people have bitten.

Let's hear it. We won't even judge your palmares, honest .

It's not difficult to work out and his palmares can only be judged positively. (And I doubt he has much to report on the doping front).

Is for chumps like me . He was riding around the time I was born by the looks of it.

And re the palmares - probably better than mine I suspect .

Yellow Peril

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Speaking of amnesties and coming clean...

Who are you esafosfina?

You've eluded to your pro past and not too many people have bitten.

Let's hear it. We won't even judge your palmares, honest .

It's not difficult to work out and his palmares can only be judged positively. (And I doubt he has much to report on the doping front).

Is for chumps like me . He was riding around the time I was born by the looks of it.

And re the palmares - probably better than mine I suspect .

If it's who I think it is I believe he may do sportswear now and was a steady team rider. I may be way out though. whatever or whoever it is always good to get the opinions of ex-pro's on pro-race and it is nice to know that they feelcan come and speak frankly here.

ocdupalais

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Speaking of amnesties and coming clean...

Who are you esafosfina?

You've eluded to your pro past and not too many people have bitten.

Let's hear it. We won't even judge your palmares, honest .

It's not difficult to work out and his palmares can only be judged positively. (And I doubt he has much to report on the doping front).

I'm sorry, but there's an omertà as to the identity of esafosfina... I only think I know who it is, and if it's who I think it is, then I shall respect his incognitocity (ahem) and maybe let him him reveal himself.

I'll say this though: he was bloody awesome. He possessed what I believe was regarded as a devastating ability in one of his key events; the ability to "kick' again in the last 750 metres...

esafosfina

Thanks for the replies and responses... some food for thought to say the least. I'm unsure, tbh, what exactly was going on at ADR because 'omerta' was the call of the day. Some riders let slip 'tales' and it wasn't difficult to put two and two together. Museeuw was a second year pro in 89 when I joined, and I roomed a fair bit with him, and can say that I saw nothing untoward. (Yes, we were all using injectable preparations and vitamins... it was considered professional to do so at the time...) I rode the Paris-Nice that year on nothing but Berocca and a daily multi-vit! The older riders thought I was completely naive and slightly mad! It was a very steep learning curve after that!

Yellow Peril... sorry to disappoint, but I never dabbled! I guess I was talented enough to circumvent 'the dark-side' although it was offered on numerous occasions.

Dave_1... yep, there were some 'eye-opening' things going on at ADR, but it was pretty much uniform throughout teams. And a lot worse in smaller 'Kermesse' teams of the time... those guys hit it hard!

Rick... a snappy search for British professionals of the day and you should find only one that rode for ADR and Tulip Computers. Palmares are short, but sweet enough!

RichN95... Not too much to report on the doping front, a few nasty eye-opening experiences, and team-mates keeling over dead. Gulp...

OCDuPalais... you've got it in one mate!

Richmond Racer

OCDuPalais wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Speaking of amnesties and coming clean...

Who are you esafosfina?

You've eluded to your pro past and not too many people have bitten.

Let's hear it. We won't even judge your palmares, honest .

It's not difficult to work out and his palmares can only be judged positively. (And I doubt he has much to report on the doping front).

I'm sorry, but there's an omertà as to the identity of esafosfina... I only think I know who it is, and if it's who I think it is, then I shall respect his incognitocity (ahem) and maybe let him him reveal himself.

I'll say this though: he was bloody awesome. He possessed what I believe was regarded as a devastating ability in one of his key events; the ability to "kick' again in the last 750 metres...

*bows to your perspicacity*

ocdupalais

esafosfina - was chatting with a mate about you the other day: never thought you got the props you deserved (although weren't you inducted into the British Cycling Hall of Fame? That'll probably narrow things for people searching out who you are).

In relation to a possible amnesty, I think people are generally quite cynical now about what's in it for those involved (book to plug, lawsuit too influence, etc). But I'm wondering if we're entering into what I think would be an interesting evolution in the doping domain and something that hasn't been discussed quite so much (although most self-confessed dopers refer to it): the damage the lying and deceit does to the soul.
Usually when a pro 'fesses up it's because they've been backed into a corner or have an interest to protect/promote: in the case of Museeuw, I can't see the "angle"... other, that is, than perhaps the corrosive affect it's been having on his conscience. Maybe during his tenure of the legendary Lion of Flanders stuff and Belgian hero-worship, he's been thinking "yeah, yeah... if only you knew: it turns out my roar might've been more of a miaow...or should that be mueeuw? Johan Mueeuw, that's me..."

Bearing in mind most of a rider's doping practices happened when they were young men and women, by the time you are a "mature" chap or lady, your horizons might have widened and your understanding of the World expanded beyond the bubble of cycling and you might have tired of carrying all that baggage of secrecy around.

Then again, you might be Riccardo Ricco.

esafosfina

OC... love the Ricco reference! Haha!

I do believe that more and more riders will 'break silence' simply because of the statute-of-limitations, but more due to the fact that a guilty conscience is an overbearing weight to carry... A shift into the realm of ethics and morals??? Let's hope so. It would shit me to find out that I'd been beaten by cheats, but it would also lay to rest a lot of suspicion and doubt.

Yep... I was inducted into the BC Hall of Fame... as for props, well, I guess that was just the profile of our sport at the time!

skylla

Perhaps off topic, but anyone happened to know if the beaujolais is any good this year??

edhornby

skylla wrote:

Perhaps off topic, but anyone happened to know if the beaujolais is any good this year??

how did you go from Museeuw to Beaujolais ?? I've not heard either way but if it's 26deg and nonstop sun still then I think it could be another good one - 2009 and 10 were both good...

[back on topic] I hope that some of the old omerta starts to break down too, if the DS' start to talk then that will be the biggest pointer of change for me.

ocdupalais

edhornby wrote:

skylla wrote:

Perhaps off topic, but anyone happened to know if the beaujolais is any good this year??

how did you go from Museeuw to Beaujolais ?? I've not heard either way but if it's 26deg and nonstop sun still then I think it could be another good one - 2009 and 10 were both good...

Might be reference to esafosfina's post-cycling career... although if he's where I think he is, he'll be drinking wines that p!ss all over Beaujolais...

disgruntledgoat

Museeuw is a noted wine buff

andyrr

Is Museeuw's desire to come clean possibly something that he thinks will make it a greater possibility that he can re-enter the sport in a team officially - following his retirement he initially remained involved in his last team but then was forced to leave.
Maybe he wants to get back in and believes his admittance will clear the dark cloud that still hangs over him and he can become a DS or similar ?

rick_chasey

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Museeuw is a noted wine buff

Judging from what I see on sporza and his twitter feed, I've never seen someone enjoy cycling and bikes so much.

He's still totally in love with it, even though he's been riding for a bloody long time.