One for the pedants: On a database or in a database

DonDaddyD

I have some data and I'm trying to explain where it is kept, is the correct term 'in or on' a database.

Example:

Is the data stored on an external database?

OR

Is the data stored in an external database?

The Guardian website would have me believe the terminology is 'on a database'

Various parts of the BBC (i.e. News but not all) would have me believe the terminology is 'in a database'

Thank you in advance.

rick_chasey

in a spreadsheet, on the database.

Your work is saved ON your hard disk, not in it.

gtvlusso

Rick Chasey wrote:

in a spreadsheet, on the database.

Your work is saved ON your hard disk, not in it.

Some databases do not use H/D - for example x500 DB tend to be in memory DB.

So, I would say stuff is 'written to a database' or 'retrieved from a database' or 'Queried in a database'....

mudcow007

gtvlusso wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

in a spreadsheet, on the database.

Your work is saved ON your hard disk, not in it.

Some databases do not use H/D - for example x500 DB tend to be in memory DB.

So, I would say stuff is 'written to a database' or 'retrieved from a database' or 'Queried in a database'....

yep - i concur

pangolin

gtvlusso

I would also say that the 'data' is stored 'within' a defined structure; no matter what the field size or name, so data is within the 'schema' or structure, therefore data is stored; 'IN the database'.

CiB

We always refer to data in a database, so In is correct.

There is a subtle semantic difference that I'm struggling to put my finger on at this very moment. If pushed I'd say that In a database is a reference to specific data or a specific database whereas On a database is a more generic reference to any non-specific data or database, e.g all immigrants will be registered on a database (c) DM. It's non-specific but refers to concept rather than an actual. Mebbe.

night_porter

It has to be stored in a database held on a computer surely!

cookdn

gtvlusso wrote:

I would also say that the 'data' is stored 'within' a defined structure; no matter what the field size or name, so data is within the 'schema' or structure, therefore data is stored; 'IN the database'.

+1. Databases are commonly conceptualised as containers.

gtvlusso

night_porter wrote:

It has to be stored in a database held on a computer surely!

[nerd]

Ah - Define computer - do you mean a database structure stored in memory or stored on a device (like a hard disk).....?!!

[/nerd]

I'll stop now as this bores the f*ck out of me and x500 DB's are my job......effectively.

gabriel959

Rick Chasey wrote:

in a spreadsheet, on the database.

Your work is saved ON your hard disk, not in it.

I love this topic.

What about if you have a SSD as a hard disk? Should it be "in your hard disk" then?

rick_chasey

WTF is an SSD?

raffa cakes

in.

As a recovering pedant, and being a bit obvious, I would say 'on' is for things which are defined by a surface of some sort, and 'in' is for things which are enclosed. So you write on paper and you write in a book. There are odd cases - like discs and disks - where we say 'on', maybe as a kind of legacy because we still think of them like a vinyl record with the data inscribed around it? And then there are oddball ones like 'on the train' which makes no sense, unless it is a descendant in some way of 'on a horse'.

As part of my recovery programme I have to say now that the English language is a constantly evolving, living thing and there is no wrong way of using it as long as the meaning is communicated adequately. Grinding teeth.

gabriel959

Rick Chasey wrote:

WTF is an SSD?

What an old crank

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_drive

rick_chasey

<< me no IT.

*shrugs*

I've always said on.

My office will talk about going "into" the database to see which profile are "on" it, rather like you look at TV to see what's "on".

gtvlusso

Ah;

You could have data written on a hard disk or device, however, that data, without being confined in the structure of a schema can tangibly be 'on' said device or 'in' said memory. However, data that is confined in the structure of a database is 'within' a database that is stored either 'in' a memory location or 'on' a hard disk.

So, I would say that as the database schema defines the methodology of data containment, I would say - 'within' a database, that is stored 'on' a device or 'within' a memory segment.....

Has that bored anyone enough yet?

gabriel959

Rick Chasey wrote:

<< me no IT.

*shrugs*

I've always said on.

My office will talk about going "into" the database to see which profile are "on" it, rather like you look at TV to see what's "on".

For a hard drive the data is recorded on it but on an SSD the data is recorded inside the memory of the device.

rick_chasey

gabriel959 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

<< me no IT.

*shrugs*

I've always said on.

My office will talk about going "into" the database to see which profile are "on" it, rather like you look at TV to see what's "on".

For a hard drive the data is recorded on it but on an SSD the data is recorded inside the memory of the device.

I genuinely don't think the preposition choice for day to day database use really considers the physical intricacies of memory storage somehow!

night_porter

Actually a hard disk is a misnomer anyway, it should be called a hard disk drive as the actual hard disks are the platters inside the disk drive (as opposed to floppy disks) the platters have an oxide coating that saves the data magnetically ON the surface but of course this surface is IN the disk drive.

So there is your answer EITHER is fine

or

BOTH are wrong

raffa cakes

gtvlusso wrote:

data that is confined in the structure of a database is 'within' a database that is stored either 'in' a memory location or 'on' a hard disk.

Or 'at' a memory location, since a location is a place.

tgotb

raffa cakes wrote:

in.

As a recovering pedant, and being a bit obvious, I would say 'on' is for things which are defined by a surface of some sort, and 'in' is for things which are enclosed. So you write on paper and you write in a book. There are odd cases - like discs and disks - where we say 'on', maybe as a kind of legacy because we still think of them like a vinyl record with the data inscribed around it? And then there are oddball ones like 'on the train' which makes no sense, unless it is a descendant in some way of 'on a horse'.

Disks make sense because the data is recorded on the surface, so it's like paper. But why do railway announcers always say "On the station", for instance "Please do not ride bicycles on the station"? I heard this announcement at Waterloo the other day, and almost wondered whether Danny MacAskill was doing tricks on the roof...

Back on topic: IN a database. Duh!

walkingbootweather

If it is particularly sensitive or private data it's probably left ON the bus or IN the pub by now :oops:

rolf_f

TGOTB wrote:

But why do railway announcers always say "On the station", for instance "Please do not ride bicycles on the station"? I heard this announcement at Waterloo the other day, and almost wondered whether Danny MacAskill was doing tricks on the roof...

For the same reason that they announce that the "next station stop is" or that the train is "arriving into". Ie they are waffling idiots. I think we can assume if they mention a station that the train will be stopping at it without the use of the word 'stop' and 'arriving into' always makes me think of a hideous crashing as the train ploughs through the buffer stops and smashes its way through a McDonalds slowed only by the vast numbers of overweight people inside.

"In" a database, obv...... I'm not going to start storing things 'on' a spreadsheet and I can't see a database being physically significantly different.

notsoblue

gtvlusso wrote:

I would also say that the 'data' is stored 'within' a defined structure; no matter what the field size or name, so data is within the 'schema' or structure, therefore data is stored; 'IN the database'.

This.

All this talk of platters and media is irrelevant, its all pretty conceptual anyway

Agent57

In more than 20 years of working as a programmer, I've never heard anyone refer to data being stored ON a database. Everyone I've ever encountered, and myself, stick data IN a database.

So the data is in a database, the database is on a hard disk. Or in memory.

Simples.

(But on a related note, should it be "the data are stored", since data is plural for datum? )

tailwindhome

DDD you are public sector

The data has been lost.

kelsen

Agent57 wrote:

(But on a related note, should it be "the data are stored", since data is plural for datum? )

Then it would be "datums are stored" but still "data is stored"

Agent57

kelsen wrote:

Agent57 wrote:

(But on a related note, should it be "the data are stored", since data is plural for datum? )

Then it would be "datums are stored" but still "data is stored"

Well that's my point. I was hoping to get into a semantic argument about the original meaning of words. =( I was going to follow up with a rant about "decimated" as a description of something that's almost totally destroyed. O_o

I never hear anyone referring to "datums" or a "datum", TBH. "The data point" seems far more common.

SteppenHerring

Agent57 wrote:

kelsen wrote:

Agent57 wrote:

(But on a related note, should it be "the data are stored", since data is plural for datum? )

Then it would be "datums are stored" but still "data is stored"

Well that's my point. I was hoping to get into a semantic argument about the original meaning of words. =( I was going to follow up with a rant about "decimated" as a description of something that's almost totally destroyed. O_o

I never hear anyone referring to "datums" or a "datum", TBH. "The data point" seems far more common.

I worked in engineering for a bit. Datum was used a bit. The plural of datum is data. You will occasionally hear pedantic gits say "the data were stored in the database". While this is strictly correct it is pedantry beyond even what I can stand.

And yes, the data are stored in the database.

MisterMuncher

I recall the late, lamented George Carlin describing an altercation at an airport, when he refused to get on a plane, preferring instead to get in it. He had a point,

greg66_tri_v2.0

Not going to read all this, but the answer is "in".

Those who answered "on" are utter spacktards (temporary fave word).

That is all.