New wheels but why!!?'

boogi11

Ok, I keep hearing the best upgrade you can make for a bike is wheels, but why!!!
I have a three month old bianchi via nerone 2012. The wheels on the back are round. Why upgrade, if people are meaning 600 quid wheels, what will I gain? Are they rounder

My local bike shop has a pair of wheels (Mavik maybe!) he said he could do them for £220 now they looked nice, and had wind efficient spokes, but how will it help me. He said they were classed as training wheels. If there is a genuine reason theniwill buy some, but I don't want to get some for the sake of it!

snoopsmydogg

can of worms opened?

you are about to get explanations of how rotational weight is 3x actual weight saved, better climbing, kom on strava but it seems to boil down to one thing really.


bling innit

boogi11

And that's fine, I love a bit of bling, as long as I know that's the reason

ugo.santalucia

Keep your wheels and ride them to death or until they stop making you happy... Whichever comes first

ianbar

when i got my aksiums (£200) i found that yes climbed better, ride was better....look way nicer! i found more grip too.now thats just £200 wheels while i do have mt eyes on some £400-£600 worth the mavins are a really good upgrade for now and the improvement in speed is limited by the engine on top of them!

Eternal-Bcb

I have also been wondering this a new road rider. I'm all for bling as well but would like to know what sort of ball park advantage are you going to have by spending £300 on new wheels or getting some RS80's?

thescouselander

I ended up buying new wheels recently after my original front wheel ate its bearings. To be honest I'm not sure I can notice the weight difference but the new wheels are a lot stiffer which definitely changes the feel of the bike.

Gizmodo

I bought a Trek Madone 3.5 this time last year, perfectly good stock wheels. I had some money come my way so decided to buy some hand built wheels. First thing I noticed is that whilst I am rolling downhill, all around me have to pedal to keep up. My brother bought a brand new Pinarello and just couldn't keep up downhill - he bought new wheels and now he can. So from my perspective, rolling resistance has been lowered.

ugo.santalucia

Gizmodo wrote:

I bought a Trek Madone 3.5 this time last year, perfectly good stock wheels. I had some money come my way so decided to buy some hand built wheels. First thing I noticed is that whilst I am rolling downhill, all around me have to pedal to keep up. My brother bought a brand new Pinarello and just couldn't keep up downhill - he bought new wheels and now he can. So from my perspective, rolling resistance has been lowered.

Are these the wheels I built for him you are talking about?

Gizmodo

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Gizmodo wrote:

I bought a Trek Madone 3.5 this time last year, perfectly good stock wheels. I had some money come my way so decided to buy some hand built wheels. First thing I noticed is that whilst I am rolling downhill, all around me have to pedal to keep up. My brother bought a brand new Pinarello and just couldn't keep up downhill - he bought new wheels and now he can. So from my perspective, rolling resistance has been lowered.

Are these the wheels I built for him you are talking about?

Yes, still rolling very sweetly

Gizmodo

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Gizmodo wrote:

I bought a Trek Madone 3.5 this time last year, perfectly good stock wheels. I had some money come my way so decided to buy some hand built wheels. First thing I noticed is that whilst I am rolling downhill, all around me have to pedal to keep up. My brother bought a brand new Pinarello and just couldn't keep up downhill - he bought new wheels and now he can. So from my perspective, rolling resistance has been lowered.

Are these the wheels I built for him you are talking about?

Yes, still rolling very sweetly

ugo.santalucia

Gizmodo wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Gizmodo wrote:

I bought a Trek Madone 3.5 this time last year, perfectly good stock wheels. I had some money come my way so decided to buy some hand built wheels. First thing I noticed is that whilst I am rolling downhill, all around me have to pedal to keep up. My brother bought a brand new Pinarello and just couldn't keep up downhill - he bought new wheels and now he can. So from my perspective, rolling resistance has been lowered.

Are these the wheels I built for him you are talking about?

Yes, still rolling very sweetly

8)

pinno

So this is where your hiding Gizmodo !

I have a set of Dura Ace Carbon 1380's on my winter trainer (low profile) and a set of Eurus with ceramic bearings on my Summer steed.
The step up from mavic ksyriums came about when I bought a pair of Sciroccos because the campag hubs on the Sciroccos were awesome and I could not resist upgrading. They used to say save on bits but spend on wheels. I don't think its any different now.
You need wheels for purpose. Low profile for pure climbing, Medium for all round and Deep section for time trialling. Don't say you saw Fabian Cancelarra on deep section in the Paris-Roubaix 'cos his wheels probably cost upwards of £3.5k and they would perform for you and I in any conditions apart from a high wind.

Things to consider:

Quality bearings and hard bearing contact surfaces produce less friction and faster hubs - but thats costly.
As it was said before, I freewheel quicker than a bloke on Bontrager xx Lite because of the ceramic bearings and Campag hubs
The air resistance created by wheels exceeds all other resistance on the bike. More than your frontal area. A good set of wheels reduces this 'drag' considerably
Expensive wheels have inherent stiffness but also have lateral flex which gives a far more comfortable ride and on endurance rides, much less fatigue. in other words they are stiff where it matters but have a little bit of give without compromising speed or acceleration.
Expensive wheels are light - low 'inertia' allows the wheel to accelerate quicker. Inertia is the force created when anything spins. High inertia requires more energy to spin the wheel thus making it slower and requiring more force to perpetuate.
Good wheels are sh1te without good tyres. have a look at:

http://www.wheelhub.co.uk/Wheels-Rims.cfm

Explains a lot about rim profiles and is a handy website for reference.

slowbike

pinarello001 wrote:

Expensive wheels are light - low 'inertia' allows the wheel to accelerate quicker. Inertia is the force created when anything spins. High inertia requires more energy to spin the wheel thus making it slower and requiring more force to perpetuate.

Er. Your first bit is right - the second bit about High inertia (assuming you're referring to heavier wheels) is wrong.

Youre right that heavier wheels take more energy to spin up - so its generally slower to get to speed - but once up to speed they are a flywheel - so you don't need any more or less than the lighter wheel to maintain that speed - and it'll take longer to slow down - assuming the same hub friction that is!

ugo.santalucia

pinarello001 wrote:

So this is where your hiding Gizmodo !

I have a set of Dura Ace Carbon 1380's on my winter trainer (low profile) and a set of Eurus with ceramic bearings on my Summer steed.
The step up from mavic ksyriums came about when I bought a pair of Sciroccos because the campag hubs on the Sciroccos were awesome and I could not resist upgrading. They used to say save on bits but spend on wheels. I don't think its any different now.
You need wheels for purpose. Low profile for pure climbing, Medium for all round and Deep section for time trialling. Don't say you saw Fabian Cancelarra on deep section in the Paris-Roubaix 'cos his wheels probably cost upwards of £3.5k and they would perform for you and I in any conditions apart from a high wind.

Things to consider:

Quality bearings and hard bearing contact surfaces produce less friction and faster hubs - but thats costly.
As it was said before, I freewheel quicker than a bloke on Bontrager xx Lite because of the ceramic bearings and Campag hubs
The air resistance created by wheels exceeds all other resistance on the bike. More than your frontal area. A good set of wheels reduces this 'drag' considerably
Expensive wheels have inherent stiffness but also have lateral flex which gives a far more comfortable ride and on endurance rides, much less fatigue. in other words they are stiff where it matters but have a little bit of give without compromising speed or acceleration.
Expensive wheels are light - low 'inertia' allows the wheel to accelerate quicker. Inertia is the force created when anything spins. High inertia requires more energy to spin the wheel thus making it slower and requiring more force to perpetuate.
Good wheels are sh1te without good tyres. have a look at:

http://www.wheelhub.co.uk/Wheels-Rims.cfm

Explains a lot about rim profiles and is a handy website for reference.

I think your digression is a bit academic... I won't go into the physics... only thing I would argue is ceramic bearings.
My experience with common ceramic bearings is quite bad... although in theory silicon nitride balls are a good idea, in practice achieving the same roundness as achieved with steel is a manufcturing issue... in practice a "ceramic bearing" priced at 10 pounds is inferior to a stainless steel one of the same price (i.e. SKF) both in terms of performance and durability. High performance ceramic bearings made of zirconia are priced such that the 6 needed for a hubset would exceed the cost of the hubset itself, even it being Chris King, so I assume you are talking about the common hybrid steel-Si3N4. I can assure they are not the reason you freewheel faster than your mate... you are probably bigger, or more aerodynamic or a combination of both.
The way to assess the quality of a bearing is not freewheeling, you can freewheel pretty fast even with shot bearings

Bordersroadie

pinarello001 wrote:

The air resistance created by wheels exceeds all other resistance on the bike. More than your frontal area. A good set of wheels reduces this 'drag' considerably

If this is your justification for buying some bling, then great, but a big lump of human having lower drag than a skinny wheel/tyre? If any scientists would confirm, I'll be genuinely amazed.

MichaelW

The % of aerodynamic drag of rider vs bike varies with rider position but generally most people quote 60-80% due to the rider. I dont know where they get the figure from but it sounds reasonable.
It may be that wheels contribute more to drag than any other bit of the bike but the nut on the saddle makes the biggest contribution overall.

jecooper

the equation for drag includes area x speed^2 (squared) amongst some other scientific coefficients. So if you go twice as fast, your drag increases by 4 times etc. As the wheels are spinning so much faster than the body is moving they will certainly have a higher contribution when comparing relative areas but without doing the maths (and i don't plan to!) i'd expect you'd need some very fat spokes before before it made more effect than the rider. I may be wrong though!

apologies for the unnecessary digression...

Kingy911

SO, are expensive wheels better or not ?

slowbike

Kingy911 wrote:

SO, are expensive wheels better or not ?

Of course they are .... much better for the builder and retailer ... and equally worse for your bank balance whilst not necessarily better for your speed ...

snoopsmydogg

Slowbike wrote:

Kingy911 wrote:

SO, are expensive wheels better or not ?

Of course they are .... much better for the builder and retailer ... and equally worse for your bank balance whilst not necessarily better for your speed ...

and of course there is the placebo effect

Mikey23

I've said this before and no doubt I'll say it again. I have far better things to spend my money on. And i very much doubt whether spending hundreds of pounds on a couple of wheels will make any significant difference to my cycling. But it's your money....

pinno

I weigh 67kg's. Until you buy a pair of campag hoops, you wouldn't understand freewheeling quicker. I did not beleive it until I bought a pair. There is no other part of the bike apart from the frame that will so significantly improve, ride, performance, comfort, acceleration and efficiency.

slowbike

pinarello001 wrote:

There is no other part of the bike apart from the frame that will so significantly improve, ride, performance, comfort, acceleration and efficiency.

Yes there is - a new nut to go on the saddle ...




unashamably stolen from someone elses post somewhere on these fora today ..

t4tomo

boogi11 wrote:

Ok, I keep hearing the best upgrade you can make for a bike is wheels, but why!!!
I have a three month old bianchi via nerone 2012. The wheels on the back are round. Why upgrade, if people are meaning 600 quid wheels, what will I gain? Are they rounder

My local bike shop has a pair of wheels (Mavik maybe!) he said he could do them for £220 now they looked nice, and had wind efficient spokes, but how will it help me. He said they were classed as training wheels. If there is a genuine reason theniwill buy some, but I don't want to get some for the sake of it!

So we get onto the second page before any has asked what wheels came with your Bianchi, as depending on which groupset / pricepoint you paid for the Bianchi it may well already have better or samewheels than your lbs man is offering for £220.

Wrath Rob

Bordersroadie wrote:

pinarello001 wrote:

The air resistance created by wheels exceeds all other resistance on the bike. More than your frontal area. A good set of wheels reduces this 'drag' considerably

If this is your justification for buying some bling, then great, but a big lump of human having lower drag than a skinny wheel/tyre? If any scientists would confirm, I'll be genuinely amazed.

Hmm, I'd like to see a source for this one too. As a thought experiment, what would make the biggest difference to a 25 mile TT based on a standard road bike: Properly fitted aero bars OR deep section wheels? I'd go with the aero bars but am happy to be proved wrong.

Eternal-Bcb

Wrath Rob wrote:

Bordersroadie wrote:

pinarello001 wrote:

The air resistance created by wheels exceeds all other resistance on the bike. More than your frontal area. A good set of wheels reduces this 'drag' considerably

If this is your justification for buying some bling, then great, but a big lump of human having lower drag than a skinny wheel/tyre? If any scientists would confirm, I'll be genuinely amazed.

Hmm, I'd like to see a source for this one too. As a thought experiment, what would make the biggest difference to a 25 mile TT based on a standard road bike: Properly fitted aero bars OR deep section wheels? I'd go with the aero bars but am happy to be proved wrong.

If your talking aero TT bars then yes, but the difference is not caused by the bars but more of the fact that your position on the bike is much more aerodynamic. If it was for example just aero drop bars then this would have no difference because its the rider which is ultimately causing the most drag.

keyser__soze

Not very scientific, but best bang-per-buck in terms of aero saving is aero bars: http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/h ... ero-19273/
You probably gain as much benefit from getting in the drops vs the hoods as you do going from a shallow section to a deep section wheel.

boogi11

Frame Hydroformed alloy Group Set Campagnolo Xenon/FSA Vero chainset
Tyres Hutchinson Equinox Weight 9.6kg (21.3lb)
Wheels Reparto Corse Versus Supplier www.bianchi.com

simon_masterson

If anything's going to make a noticeable difference to your cycling, the wheels that you are spinning are a fairly obvious choice. We still run into the difference between 'perceived' speed and 'actual' speed (you might feel flightier but it's not exactly going to make you 40% faster!), but you could spend the same money on much less worthwhile upgrades.

Kingy911

To satisfy my curiosity I have purchased some Campag Eurus (second hand) I will report back as to whether I am faster, sleeker and cooler with the new wheels ;-)