Trying to make a solo break in 4th cat...

MarkAshton

I have done a few 4th cat races now, and the pace always seems to be slow.

I have contemplated going solo after about 2/3rds of the race (hoping a few others will come accross).

With a 5.3 w/kg 5 min and 4 w/kg FTP, do you think its possible to stay away? My sprint is terrible. I can easily move up to the top 5 riders on the bell lap, but often get swamped on the final sprint. I never seem to follow a wheel....

Pross

Just give it a try, if you aren't going to place in the sprint anyway you may as well try it and risk getting caught and dropped really.

Herbsman

I've one it with 3 laps to go and won, also with 10 laps to go and came 2nd. You've got nothing to lose if you're going to lose anyway!

napoleond

Fvck it, it's amateur racing. Sh!t or bust. Just go for it!

jibberjim

With a high FTP regardless of if you make it - it's in your interest to make the race as hard as possible - and that's not towing the bunch along fast, it's loads of changes of pace. Attacking is the only way you can encourage that, so attack! Even if caught you may well have knackered the race out of others... It's the only way I got out of 4th cat.

MarkAshton

jibberjim wrote:

With a high FTP regardless of if you make it - it's in your interest to make the race as hard as possible - and that's not towing the bunch along fast, it's loads of changes of pace. Attacking is the only way you can encourage that, so attack! Even if caught you may well have knackered the race out of others... It's the only way I got out of 4th cat.

Good advice. I tried the approach of sitting in all race last time. It was one of the most boring hours on my bike. I guess I am a little worried of attacking, blowing up then getting dropped whilst others snigger.

dawebbo

Do what Jim says - lots of attacks. It's very hard to get off the front if everyone is fresh. Watch some of the halford tour pro series (if it's still on itv player), you'll that there are loads of moves before the final selection is made.

racingcondor

Assuming it's a crit I'd sit in for 1/2 hour (lets the eager ones wear themselves out) then attack to see how it goes. If/when you get caught sit in for another 5 mins to recover and go again (etc).

If you're doing a series you'll soon have people following you every time if you can make it look possible.

Alternatively, if you're in London and doing the Hillingdon winter series I'll join you because I'm only there for the training...

Herbsman

Do you have team/club mates in the same races? If you're a confident and strong rider then warm up well and attack at the start with a team mate or two. People will chase you as they won't to risk both/all of you getting away, and, not being fully warmed up or ready for the huge effort of chasing you, they will really suffer.

Or get a team mate to attack at the beginning, sit in until he gets caught and then attack immediately after... keep doing this tag team attack method until something sticks or you both blow and get dropped...

TakeTurns

Well I don't know where you've been racing at, but my first 4th cat race's were bloody fast. Although they were mainly crits, the pace was 29-31mph throughout the first 25mins.

Anyway, attacking or trying to make a solo break may be fun, but it's not tactically smart. The peloton will always manage to close to gap unless you're a machine. I wouldn't waste your energy on a break and jeopardize your chances of placing. Only perhaps on the last lap to go.

Having said that, go experiment, it's the only way you'll find out!

amaferanga

TakeTurns wrote:

Well I don't know where you've been racing at, but my first 4th cat race's were bloody fast. Although they were mainly crits, the pace was 29-31mph throughout the first 25mins.

Anyway, attacking or trying to make a solo break may be fun, but it's not tactically smart. The peloton will always manage to close to gap unless you're a machine. I wouldn't waste your energy on a break and jeopardize your chances of placing. Only perhaps on the last lap to go.

Having said that, go experiment, it's the only way you'll find out!

Sitting in the bunch and having a 100m gallop at the end every race would do my head in. Solo breaks may succeed rarely, but if one guy goes off the front and then a few more strong riders do the same (and don't just up the pace on the front of the bunch and drag the bunch with them which normally happens) then there's a good chance they could stay away. That's how racing works. It's not tactically dumb at all.

sub55

TakeTurns wrote:

Well I don't know where you've been racing at, but my first 4th cat race's were bloody fast. Although they were mainly crits, the pace was 29-31mph throughout the first 25mins.

Anyway, attacking or trying to make a solo break may be fun, but it's not tactically smart. The peloton will always manage to close to gap unless you're a machine. I wouldn't waste your energy on a break and jeopardize your chances of placing. Only perhaps on the last lap to go.

Having said that, go experiment, it's the only way you'll find out!

well there's boring :roll:
you want to win a race then be aggressive and take the fight to them , may fail but hay ho.
You'll never win anything, races or friends if you expect to sit in the entire race waiting for the sprint.
Typical 4th cat tactic ,resulting in boring precession's of in adequate personality who are more concerned about failure than they are about succeeding.

disgruntledgoat

I don't mind not winning, I mind not trying

Jacky Durand said that and he knew a few thigns about solo breaks.

racingcondor

sub55 wrote:

Typical 4th cat tactic ,resulting in boring precession's of in adequate personality who are more concerned about failure than they are about succeeding.

Yeah, there is too much of it along with overeager chasing of everything that gets 30ft off the front whether it's a solo rider with 50 minutes to go (let him go, he'll be back) or a group of 6 with 20 minutes (hint: rather more dangerous).

If nothing else thought the big reason to attack as much as you can in a 3/4 race is that it's probably better training than you'll be able to do solo.

disgruntledgoat

Even worse are the guys who attack and when they haven't got a 30s gap on the first effort just give up.

bigmat

My preferred tactic is to sit in the group and wait for a decent looking attack to go clear, then bridge across and work with it. Nothing worse than making the attack assuming somebody will follow then realising you're out on your own with half the race still to go - I'd love to say I have the legs to hold off the peloton but best I've managed is a couple of laps of Hog Hill - I usually end up sufering for the rest of the race once I've inevitably been caught!

Tom Butcher

The big difference between bike racing and say running, triathlon or time trialling is you have to be proactive - you aren't just racing yourself or the clock you have to attack the opposition. It does take confidence - I think a lot of people in races aren't really waiting for the sprint - they are just hamstrung by indecision - whether it's a good time to attack or whether they should try and get across to that group and end up doing nothing. Depends on your personality to an extent - it took me a while to do more than have a couple of speculative digs off the front and I still think **** this is going to hurt before attacking.

The Jacky Durand quote pretty much sums it up.

DavidJB

4th cat racing is basically a bunch of kids chasing round a ball. If the ball gets over 5ft away they sprint to get it.

You get the big strong guys who are only there to show off how big and strong they are and chase anything that moves...then finish 24th. Let them wear themselves out. The only time I've ever seen breaks succeed in 3/4's is when people go 5 min before the lap boards come out.

disgruntledgoat

DavidJB wrote:

4th cat racing is basically a bunch of kids chasing round a ball. If the ball gets over 5ft away they sprint to get it.

You get the big strong guys who are only there to show off how big and strong they are and chase anything that moves...then finish 24th. Let them wear themselves out. The only time I've ever seen breaks succeed in 3/4's is when people go 5 min before the lap boards come out.

I've seen, and even participated in, successful breaks in 2/3/4 races, but you're right that once you remove the guys who know what they're doing the ubiquitous bunch gallop does have a tendancy to take over.

I remember getting absolutely blasted by some guy from Liverpool Mercury once for missing "my" turn to chase the inevitable jump off the front 10 miles into a 60 mile race with a 2km climb coming up. COuldn't understand why he was so bothered.

MikeWW

BigMat wrote:

My preferred tactic is to sit in the group and wait for a decent looking attack to go clear, then bridge across and work with it. Nothing worse than making the attack assuming somebody will follow then realising you're out on your own with half the race still to go - I'd love to say I have the legs to hold off the peloton but best I've managed is a couple of laps of Hog Hill - I usually end up sufering for the rest of the race once I've inevitably been caught!

This can work. Done it a few times. Personally not strong enough for a solo effort off the front but can work with 3 or 4 to stay away.

Toks

TakeTurns wrote:

Well I don't know where you've been racing at, but my first 4th cat race's were bloody fast. Although they were mainly crits, the pace was 29-31mph throughout the first 25mins.
!

Really?? Was this with other genuine 4th cats only?

amaferanga

Toks wrote:

TakeTurns wrote:

Well I don't know where you've been racing at, but my first 4th cat race's were bloody fast. Although they were mainly crits, the pace was 29-31mph throughout the first 25mins.
!

Really?? Was this with other genuine 4th cats only?

He probably means they touch 31mph on the downhill bits a couple of times. If they were averaging 31mph then I suspect they're all 1st Cats by now.

amaferanga

Deleted

TakeTurns

Toks wrote:

TakeTurns wrote:

Well I don't know where you've been racing at, but my first 4th cat race's were bloody fast. Although they were mainly crits, the pace was 29-31mph throughout the first 25mins.
!

Really?? Was this with other genuine 4th cats only?

It was at Hillingdon which is a pretty flat course. While I was within the peloton I looked at my speedo several times and read 27-29mph. During attacks it would pick up to 31mph. I myself was mind blown by the pace too and the race was ended sooner than it should have lasted because it was so fast.

racingcondor

Down the bacl straight at Hillingdon I'd expect it to break 27 every lap. Once you average out though for the 'uphill' section and S bend (as well as the mid race lull) you'll find that by the end of the race the average drops below 25 again.

Toks

Lol...Oh of course. We're not talking average speed...

shockedsoshocked

3/4th cat racing is like kids football, everyone chasing the ball at once (or in this case anyone who dare attack).

proto

Hillingdon 4th Cat races usually average something like 25mph.

Pace varies wildly, at times not much more than a fast club run, other times as fast or faster than the 3rds. (I've been in a race there where the 4ths have caught the 3rds, it gets very confusing for the timekeepers!)

gattocattivo

I've raced (4th cat) at Hillingdon 4 times and the average speed has always been around 25mph (give or take about 0.5mph) and almost everybody (about 90% I'd guess) finished in the bunch. I've raced at Hog Hill lots of times and the average speed has always been less than 23mph but more often than not the field gets blown to pieces in the 4th cat races and well under half survive in the main bunch.

racingcondor

proto wrote:

(I've been in a race there where the 4ths have caught the 3rds, it gets very confusing for the timekeepers!)

Just once?

The worst thing is when it happens 50 minutes in when you know for a fact that one race will end up sprinting into the back of the other. I think every crit circuit needs a cut through like Palace so that people can take a short lap, most of the time that works really well (although I have a club mate who went from off the front to off the back because of it that would disagree...).

Simon Notley

Interesting thread. I got out of fourth cat mostly just by sprinting for minor places (I was trying to win, but never quite got it) but I did also spend a fair bit of time attacking. It rarely came to anything but my final race at as a fourth cat I finally made a move which stayed away. A bunch of five or so riders joined me and we rode to the end. I blew myself to pieces driving it along because I knew I only needed to stay away to get 3rd cat - I left the sprint to the others and rolled across sixth and got the vital points.

Now I am third cat and I've lost enthusiasm for racing. Largely due to being caught between the almost certain failure of attacking and the almost certain failure of sprinting (and the constant danger of crashes - I'm getting too old for all that!). But perhaps this thread will inspire me to go out there and give attacking riding another shot!

A tactic I once saw used was to get team mates to drive the pace of the race so everyone is knackered, then slip away (now sure how) and get team mates to ease off on a long windy stretch. Lack of communication means most people aren't aware there's a break and are glad for the respite. This only works if you have a team and most other people don't.