Carbon rims... to buy or not to buy???

keyser__soze

ugo.santalucia wrote:

sometime ago there was a guy on the forum begging for a spare Zipp rim, as the LBS quoted something close to half a grand for one.

Sounds familiar Eventually got a 100 mile old 404 for £300 from the bay to replace it and the missus has crash insured her new bike and the wheels. At least with the Mavics the carbon isn't structural.

RoadMeridaBen

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but i think your off your head....
Personally i think using those sort of wheels for training looks silly and if there are any gains to be had (minimal at best) those talking about the weight on the hills... hilarious to be honest... what are we talking a couple of hundred grams ? If your slow on the hills, your slow on the hills simple as that.

I quite happily use old wheels and 'slow' tyres and they are capable of averaging decent speeds with minimal effort.
Seems like a massive waste of money to train on...

Let the flames begin :P

siamon

There are numerous test reports on this site (and elsewhere) that state exactly the opposite, claiming enormous and identifiable differences in performance between base wheels and Zipp stuff (for example). Surely the manufacturers of the cheaper wheel would demand proof of these claims?

And there is another significant difference between a Porsche and a bike. In the gym car park, there is at least 1 note with a phone number per week left on my Porsche by some tart, they have never left one on my bike, or my van, or various hired Ford Focuses that I park there. Never, not once. Just the Porsche.

drlodge

cock_sportif wrote:

My tuppence: get in touch with a couple of the UK's truly world class wheelbuilders - Harry Rowlands, Paul Hewitt, naming but two - and discuss what your actual needs are for the riding you do and aspire to do.

++1 Carbon rims *might* be lighter (actually most are heavier), but they are brittle. For anything but racing, theryare unlikely to last due to the pot holes in the road. Much better to have some wheels made up with lightweight but bullet proof rims - I've got Mavin Open Pros on the current bike and switching the Ambrosio Excellights on the new one, (going to Ramsgate to have these built by Harry Rowland on Monday).

Lightweight, reliable, built to perfection to suit your weight and riding needs, and don't forget these use standard spokes (easily replaceable) and IF you break a spoke, the wheel won't crumble unlike some 16 spoke carbon wheels.

slowbike

RoadMeridaBen wrote:

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but i think your off your head....
Personally i think using those sort of wheels for training looks silly and if there are any gains to be had (minimal at best) those talking about the weight on the hills... hilarious to be honest... what are we talking a couple of hundred grams ? If your slow on the hills, your slow on the hills simple as that.

I quite happily use old wheels and 'slow' tyres and they are capable of averaging decent speeds with minimal effort.
Seems like a massive waste of money to train on...

Let the flames begin :P

I've just got a new wheel set - the freewheel was getting grumbly and the cost to replace wasn't worth the value of the wheel ... good excuse I think!
Anyway - new wheelset - nothing "special" - but they do have "aero" spokes and encapsulated bearings .. (no carbon - sorry)
Normal riding - no real difference that I can notice - if they're a little faster then it's down to me pushing it more ... or so I thought ..
Took them on my commute yesterday - so a regular run that I have a lot of stats for ... now I know I've improved, but I got 4 PBs - including 1 uphill ... but the most significant margin was a flat run of 0.8miles that I beat by 3.4mph (yer I still use imperial ... ) - I didn't consciously put more effort in although I did "try" ...
I'll see how they go again today - the ride in was a reasonable headwind so I didn't push it - just hoping that wind stays up and in the same direction for the ride back!

So - my rather premature conclusion is that new wheels are faster - if you had rubbish stock wheels to start with...
I'm not going to be in the league of buying carbon wheels ... so I'll leave that to the daft buggers with loadsa wonga!

rolf_f

siamon wrote:

There are numerous test reports on this site (and elsewhere) that state exactly the opposite, claiming enormous and identifiable differences in performance between base wheels and Zipp stuff (for example). Surely the manufacturers of the cheaper wheel would demand proof of these claims?

They are generally not test reports. They are flowery reviews written by journalists, rather than scientists, on a website that values its advertisers. Much of what is written is clearly cobblers and much of it is just unquantified perception plus manufacturers gobbledygook. Stuff like "These Zipps really flew along and rewarded an enthusiastic riding style" is not evidence of superior performance!

dennisn

Rolf F wrote:

siamon wrote:

There are numerous test reports on this site (and elsewhere) that state exactly the opposite, claiming enormous and identifiable differences in performance between base wheels and Zipp stuff (for example). Surely the manufacturers of the cheaper wheel would demand proof of these claims?

They are generally not test reports. They are flowery reviews written by journalists, rather than scientists, on a website that values its advertisers. Much of what is written is clearly cobblers and much of it is just unquantified perception plus manufacturers gobbledygook. Stuff like "These Zipps really flew along and rewarded an enthusiastic riding style" is not evidence of superior performance!

+1.... very well put.

ugo.santalucia

siamon wrote:

And there is another significant difference between a Porsche and a bike. In the gym car park, there is at least 1 note with a phone number per week left on my Porsche by some tart, they have never left one on my bike, or my van, or various hired Ford Focuses that I park there. Never, not once. Just the Porsche.

Have you ever called any of those numbers? I suspect they are hookers...

upperoilcan

Buy em if they will make you happy...

Im not sure of whether they are faster or not (no expert im affraid) yet when i saw this thread

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40088&t=12874442

Nearly all the top bikes have aero wheels...

Surely there has to be something in that as those guys have them for one thing and that's performance and not cosmetics.

dennisn

upperoilcan wrote:

Buy em if they will make you happy...

Im not sure of whether they are faster or not (no expert im affraid) yet when i saw this thread

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40088&t=12874442

Nearly all the top bikes have aero wheels...

Surely there has to be something in that as those guys have them for one thing and that's performance and not cosmetics.

How about the fact that it's in the teams contract to use them? Pro racing is one big advertising circus and the names of wheels are in as big a letters as the wheel is wide.
Actually, I sort of believe this deep wheel thing is MORE advertising than performance. Seems to me to just be a big bulletin board. Sort of like Cervelo frames. Huge downtube with huge letters on it. I think the ad department had more to do with that downtube being huge than the frame engineers did.

rolf_f

upperoilcan wrote:

Buy em if they will make you happy...

Im not sure of whether they are faster or not (no expert im affraid) yet when i saw this thread

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40088&t=12874442

Nearly all the top bikes have aero wheels...

Surely there has to be something in that as those guys have them for one thing and that's performance and not cosmetics.

There is

1) They are pros - they are riding faster than you or I (probably. Me certainly!) - fast enough to benefit from the aero
2) It's racing - seconds matter.
3) They don't pay for their own wheels
4) If they break one, that handy team car gives them a new one inside 30 seocnds. For free.
5) They are riding tubs which are lighter than carbon clinchers and they don't need to worry about puncturing a tub tyre for the reason as per 3) above.
6) The components are supplied by manufacturers so that we see them in threads on top bikes on internet forums and think that we need the same wheels too.
7) They don't tend to use deep rim full carbon wheels in the mountains.

The pros and cons of various items of equipment can vary radically depending on whether you are on a leisure ride or racing.

upperoilcan

dennisn wrote:

How about the fact that it's in the teams contract to use them? Pro racing is one big advertising circus and the names of wheels are in as big a letters as the wheel is wide.
Actually, I sort of believe this deep wheel thing is MORE advertising than performance. Seems to me to just be a big bulletin board. Sort of like Cervelo frames. Huge downtube with huge letters on it. I think the ad department had more to do with that downtube being huge than the frame engineers did.

Hmm i'm still undecided...

And as for the Cervelo frames and tube sizing....Im not going there as i love em....

An i wont have a bad word said against them.

slowbike

Rolf F wrote:

upperoilcan wrote:

Nearly all the top bikes have aero wheels...

Surely there has to be something in that as those guys have them for one thing and that's performance and not cosmetics.

There is

1) They are pros - they are riding faster than you or I (probably. Me certainly!) - fast enough to benefit from the aero

yup - I guess it comes to a speed where the the aero-dynamics of a wheel become more significant - which is why I was able to beat my PB over a 0.8mile stretch by nearly 4mph just through having some "faster" wheels ...
I don't normally ride at that speed and the aero benefits of the new wheelset are insignificant at the lower speed I usually ride at ..

Rolf F wrote:

The pros and cons of various items of equipment can vary radically depending on whether you are on a leisure ride or racing.

Quite - my new racy wheels are not carbon - and didn't cost much - I think I spent less on a wheelset than some do on a shifter!
But I don't race (other than time on Strava!) so allout speed is not a significant issue... I certainly don't have the power to get the best out of a more expensive wheelset!

It's all about the right tool for the job!

ugo.santalucia

dennisn wrote:

upperoilcan wrote:

Buy em if they will make you happy...

Im not sure of whether they are faster or not (no expert im affraid) yet when i saw this thread

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40088&t=12874442

Nearly all the top bikes have aero wheels...

Surely there has to be something in that as those guys have them for one thing and that's performance and not cosmetics.

How about the fact that it's in the teams contract to use them? Pro racing is one big advertising circus and the names of wheels are in as big a letters as the wheel is wide.
Actually, I sort of believe this deep wheel thing is MORE advertising than performance. Seems to me to just be a big bulletin board. Sort of like Cervelo frames. Huge downtube with huge letters on it. I think the ad department had more to do with that downtube being huge than the frame engineers did.

Yes, the alleged research for stiffness has met the sponsors and manufacturers demands... large surfaces means those logos can finally be seen on TV... carbon fibre has made large surfaces competitive in terms of weight, hence for the industry is a big opportunity.
If you pay attention, the big brands that sponsor PRO teams have the biggest logos: Mavic, Zipp, Specialized, even Colnago now makes massive logos.
Now, look at the components, where there is less competition, as the market is a cartel between three main players... do you see big Campagnolo, SRAM or Shimano logos? Not really, only on the wheels, where the competition is fierce...

So roll in these 800 mm rims, let's use them as much as it's humanly possible... you smash the wheel? Don't worry, you get another one in seconds...

RoadMeridaBen

Slowbike wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

upperoilcan wrote:

Nearly all the top bikes have aero wheels...

Surely there has to be something in that as those guys have them for one thing and that's performance and not cosmetics.

There is

1) They are pros - they are riding faster than you or I (probably. Me certainly!) - fast enough to benefit from the aero

yup - I guess it comes to a speed where the the aero-dynamics of a wheel become more significant - which is why I was able to beat my PB over a 0.8mile stretch by nearly 4mph just through having some "faster" wheels ...
I don't normally ride at that speed and the aero benefits of the new wheelset are insignificant at the lower speed I usually ride at ..

Rolf F wrote:

The pros and cons of various items of equipment can vary radically depending on whether you are on a leisure ride or racing.

Quite - my new racy wheels are not carbon - and didn't cost much - I think I spent less on a wheelset than some do on a shifter!
But I don't race (other than time on Strava!) so allout speed is not a significant issue... I certainly don't have the power to get the best out of a more expensive wheelset!

It's all about the right tool for the job!

Unless your old wheels were square shaped with the brakes rubbing, i doubt those new wheels
Would see you anywhere near a 4mph gain... sounds like a case of tailwind + placebo effect.

Try the ride with the old wheels again, its all in your head

dennisn

upperoilcan wrote:

dennisn wrote:

How about the fact that it's in the teams contract to use them? Pro racing is one big advertising circus and the names of wheels are in as big a letters as the wheel is wide.
Actually, I sort of believe this deep wheel thing is MORE advertising than performance. Seems to me to just be a big bulletin board. Sort of like Cervelo frames. Huge downtube with huge letters on it. I think the ad department had more to do with that downtube being huge than the frame engineers did.

and as for the Cervelo frames and tube sizing....Im not going there as i love em....

An i wont have a bad word said against them.

I wasn't criticizing Cervelo, just making an observation as to why the tube is that big.

upperoilcan

dennisn wrote:

I wasn't criticizing Cervelo, just making an observation as to why the tube is that big.

I wasn't suggesting you were mate,my comment was made in jest.

rolf_f

RoadMeridaBen wrote:

Unless your old wheels were square shaped with the brakes rubbing, i doubt those new wheels
Would see you anywhere near a 4mph gain... sounds like a case of tailwind + placebo effect.

Try the ride with the old wheels again, its all in your head

Judging by my data for my own riding, 4mph is equivalent to moving from an MTB in winter to a carbon bike in summer.

Velonutter

RoadMeridaBen wrote:

...Unless your old wheels were square shaped with the brakes rubbing, i doubt those new wheels
Would see you anywhere near a 4mph gain... sounds like a case of tailwind + placebo effect.

Try the ride with the old wheels again, its all in your head

I believe you are right about 4mph gain, I reckon I gained about a mph average, but the biggest thing is reduced effort needed to keep them spinning.

On our Thursday night Chain Gang/Training Ride the difference is considerable and holding 26-28mph+ for 10 miles really is helped by deeper dish wheels, my heart beat is down by about 5-10bpm year on year and my fitness is certainly not better than last year.

As I have said before the gains don't really materialise until you are riding over 23mph+

RoadMeridaBen

Velonutter wrote:

RoadMeridaBen wrote:

...Unless your old wheels were square shaped with the brakes rubbing, i doubt those new wheels
Would see you anywhere near a 4mph gain... sounds like a case of tailwind + placebo effect.

Try the ride with the old wheels again, its all in your head

I believe you are right about 4mph gain, I reckon I gained about a mph average, but the biggest thing is reduced effort needed to keep them spinning.

On our Thursday night Chain Gang/Training Ride the difference is considerable and holding 26-28mph+ for 10 miles really is helped by deeper dish wheels, my heart beat is down by about 5-10bpm year on year and my fitness is certainly not better than last year.

As I have said before the gains don't really materialise until you are riding over 23mph+

I wouldn't read too much into HR, there are so many variables that
Can affect it

slowbike

Velonutter wrote:

RoadMeridaBen wrote:

...Unless your old wheels were square shaped with the brakes rubbing, i doubt those new wheels
Would see you anywhere near a 4mph gain... sounds like a case of tailwind + placebo effect.

Try the ride with the old wheels again, its all in your head

I believe you are right about 4mph gain, I reckon I gained about a mph average, but the biggest thing is reduced effort needed to keep them spinning.

On our Thursday night Chain Gang/Training Ride the difference is considerable and holding 26-28mph+ for 10 miles really is helped by deeper dish wheels, my heart beat is down by about 5-10bpm year on year and my fitness is certainly not better than last year.

As I have said before the gains don't really materialise until you are riding over 23mph+

Funny you should mention 23 mph. That's just below my prev avg for the segment. It went up to 28 - yer some is placebo - that it felt faster meant I probably put more effort in - but it didn't feel it. My ride ack today was just below that - the whole ride back was faster - but I was deliberately giving it some beans.
The whole ride has gone up a notch - not the 4mph though - I need more rides to average it out but it's prob under 1mph faster - because most of the ride is sub20mph and therefore no real gains from "better" kit.

ugo.santalucia

Slowbike wrote:

Velonutter wrote:

RoadMeridaBen wrote:

...Unless your old wheels were square shaped with the brakes rubbing, i doubt those new wheels
Would see you anywhere near a 4mph gain... sounds like a case of tailwind + placebo effect.

Try the ride with the old wheels again, its all in your head

I believe you are right about 4mph gain, I reckon I gained about a mph average, but the biggest thing is reduced effort needed to keep them spinning.

On our Thursday night Chain Gang/Training Ride the difference is considerable and holding 26-28mph+ for 10 miles really is helped by deeper dish wheels, my heart beat is down by about 5-10bpm year on year and my fitness is certainly not better than last year.

As I have said before the gains don't really materialise until you are riding over 23mph+

Funny you should mention 23 mph. That's just below my prev avg for the segment. It went up to 28 - yer some is placebo - that it felt faster meant I probably put more effort in - but it didn't feel it. My ride ack today was just below that - the whole ride back was faster - but I was deliberately giving it some beans.
The whole ride has gone up a notch - not the 4mph though - I need more rides to average it out but it's prob under 1mph faster - because most of the ride is sub20mph and therefore no real gains from "better" kit.

Assuming you are faster by X mph... as you don't race and probably never will to a level where it makes sense to spend money in equipment... ultimately the only thing that matters is if you enjoy riding more... in which case the investment is well worth... is this X mph more making you happier or is it just a pointless pursue of higher and higher speed for its own sake?

Velonutter

Ugo, I do plan to race/have already raced and any bloody advantage that I can get to hang on with the fast lot is worth every penny when we are out training 8)

amaferanga

Slowbike wrote:

Velonutter wrote:

RoadMeridaBen wrote:

...Unless your old wheels were square shaped with the brakes rubbing, i doubt those new wheels
Would see you anywhere near a 4mph gain... sounds like a case of tailwind + placebo effect.

Try the ride with the old wheels again, its all in your head

I believe you are right about 4mph gain, I reckon I gained about a mph average, but the biggest thing is reduced effort needed to keep them spinning.

On our Thursday night Chain Gang/Training Ride the difference is considerable and holding 26-28mph+ for 10 miles really is helped by deeper dish wheels, my heart beat is down by about 5-10bpm year on year and my fitness is certainly not better than last year.

As I have said before the gains don't really materialise until you are riding over 23mph+

Funny you should mention 23 mph. That's just below my prev avg for the segment. It went up to 28 - yer some is placebo - that it felt faster meant I probably put more effort in - but it didn't feel it. My ride ack today was just below that - the whole ride back was faster - but I was deliberately giving it some beans.
The whole ride has gone up a notch - not the 4mph though - I need more rides to average it out but it's prob under 1mph faster - because most of the ride is sub20mph and therefore no real gains from "better" kit.

Tail wind?

slowbike

amaferanga wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

Velonutter wrote:

RoadMeridaBen wrote:

...Unless your old wheels were square shaped with the brakes rubbing, i doubt those new wheels
Would see you anywhere near a 4mph gain... sounds like a case of tailwind + placebo effect.

Try the ride with the old wheels again, its all in your head

I believe you are right about 4mph gain, I reckon I gained about a mph average, but the biggest thing is reduced effort needed to keep them spinning.

On our Thursday night Chain Gang/Training Ride the difference is considerable and holding 26-28mph+ for 10 miles really is helped by deeper dish wheels, my heart beat is down by about 5-10bpm year on year and my fitness is certainly not better than last year.

As I have said before the gains don't really materialise until you are riding over 23mph+

Funny you should mention 23 mph. That's just below my prev avg for the segment. It went up to 28 - yer some is placebo - that it felt faster meant I probably put more effort in - but it didn't feel it. My ride ack today was just below that - the whole ride back was faster - but I was deliberately giving it some beans.
The whole ride has gone up a notch - not the 4mph though - I need more rides to average it out but it's prob under 1mph faster - because most of the ride is sub20mph and therefore no real gains from "better" kit.

Tail wind?

Been thinking about that - no, no tailwind, but possibly a few more larger vehicles passing - same effect.
Early indications are that the new wheels have made a positive difference to the stock wheels I did run - an easy ride in this morning was at an average pace I had to work to sustain on the previous wheels only a few weeks ago.

Wheels have always been one of the most important upgrades - using the right wheel for the job can make a good difference - and even a small value upgrade can have a positive impact on your speed.

snow_bike

I have a set of those and have never regretted switching to them from my Mavic R-sys. Apart, from the bike now drawing more attention whilst I stop for a coffee etc.

Unlike the Zip deep disk rims, these are more of a faring attached to the rim, so give some of the benefits of the extra aero capabilities of the more expensive alternatives, however still having the rigidity of the smaller profile wheels. - I could be wrong here before people start shooting me down, however that's my opinion.

If you like them and they make your bike look great, then go for it !! They sound lovely too. I've seen someone that had the spokes sprayed white, left the rim black, on a white Cervelo S2/3 ? Looked amazing...

snoopsmydogg

Rolf F wrote:

RoadMeridaBen wrote:

Unless your old wheels were square shaped with the brakes rubbing, i doubt those new wheels
Would see you anywhere near a 4mph gain... sounds like a case of tailwind + placebo effect.

Try the ride with the old wheels again, its all in your head

Judging by my data for my own riding, 4mph is equivalent to moving from an MTB in winter to a carbon bike in summer.

^^^^ this

I am by no means a fast rider but can get around 4mph average by changing bikes (maybe more if the mtb still has the low pressure nobbly tyres on). I recently bought some better wheels but saw no real difference except having newer bearings and looking nicer

slowbike

snoopsmydogg wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

RoadMeridaBen wrote:

Unless your old wheels were square shaped with the brakes rubbing, i doubt those new wheels
Would see you anywhere near a 4mph gain... sounds like a case of tailwind + placebo effect.

Try the ride with the old wheels again, its all in your head

Judging by my data for my own riding, 4mph is equivalent to moving from an MTB in winter to a carbon bike in summer.

^^^^ this

I am by no means a fast rider but can get around 4mph average by changing bikes (maybe more if the mtb still has the low pressure nobbly tyres on). I recently bought some better wheels but saw no real difference except having newer bearings and looking nicer

Doesn't that depend on how crap the old wheels were? And the (nearly) 4mph speed gain was on a small segment that is usually a fairly quick bit - not overall... overall average speed difference is no where near - although it seems to be at the upper end of the range - it'll be quite a while before I can say for certain ..

Having done a few more runs with the new wheels I stand by my initial comment - the new wheels have made a difference to the sustainability of the "top end" speed - perhaps its the bearings, perhaps its the flat spokes, perhaps its the weight, perhaps its the tyres or perhaps it's just me ... TBH I think it's a combination of all of them - I'll be swapping the tyres back though so we'll see what difference that makes.
If I was really serious about it I'd put the old wheels back on and do the ride again - but I'd rather not bother with the grumbly freehub .. that's why I bought the new wheels.

petemadoc

Velonutter wrote:

I've now switched all my bikes to 50mm deep rims (Except my TT bike which runs 88mm), to Bora's, Bullets, Chinese Tubs and Chinese Clinchers.

I may have asked you this before but how do you find your various wheels compare? Always fancied some Chinese clinchers.

Velonutter

PeteMadoc wrote:

Velonutter wrote:

I've now switched all my bikes to 50mm deep rims (Except my TT bike which runs 88mm), to Bora's, Bullets, Chinese Tubs and Chinese Clinchers.

I may have asked you this before but how do you find your various wheels compare? Always fancied some Chinese clinchers.

Hi Pete,

The Chinese Clinchers are very comfortable, I've used them from everything like Club Runs, Thursday Night Training Rides and even the Wild Wales and they have behaved perfectly.

The Bora's roll superbly and effortlessly, The Chinese Tubs are less harsh and the Bullets are the best of them all, they roll and iron out rough roads turning them into Silk! 8)