Combining Interval Workouts and Periodization Questions?

Gav888

Hi,

I have had a search about but not having much luck so thought I would post the questions and see if any of you guys could offer some advice?

Question 1:

A typical LT workout would be 2x20 for example and a typical V02 workout would be 5x5, at present I keep LT and VO2 seperate, ie, one workout is LT only the other VO2 only.

Is there any benefit in combinging the 2, ie, 20min at LT followed by 3x5 at VO2 in the same workout with short rest periods?

Typically I find I dread the 2nd 20min LT interval and doing 5 VO2 is a challenge.. but is that the point, its supposed to be a challenge hence why you do 5x5 or 2x20?

My reason for questioning this is I have read a couple of articles advising that the majority of the gains are from the first interval when your freshest, then its just deminishing returns on each of the remaining intervals?

Combining the 2 you get the 20min at LT and 15min at VO2, then repeat this 2 or 3 times a week and your still getting a good amount of time at each level?

Question 2:

I have limited training hours per week (7 max) so if you were to do 2x20 on Tues and 5x5 on Wed every week of the year and make the rest up with a couple of longer Z3 rides would you eventually plateau?

Again I have read articles saying your body would get used to the work loads and you would just stop gaining, and others saying you wouldn't? My thoughts are that as I use MHR instead of LTHR (another discussion ) your Z4/Z5 HR will always be that as in, it doesnt matter what speed your doing you always working the correct levels.

Surely that means you wouldn't plateau as your always working hard so the body doesn't get chance to get used to it? I could understand it if I was using LTHR and didn't adjust my HR zones according to my LTHR as I got fitter but not with MHR?

Question 3:

I am using CTL/ATL to help build my fitness levels, and I understand that long rides have a higher CTL than your typical 2x20 workout so CTL wont get that high if your only doing 2 interval sessions a week and a long 3hr ride for example when compared to 3 long rides a week, when trying to build a training plan for 2013 (which im working on at present) should I focus on building a high (for me) CTL to get good stamina / endurance then once CTL gains start to reduce to under 2 per week (working on 5-7 CTL increase per week) should I then start working on LT intervals?

Very basically im thinking.

Build CTL up to winter
Focus on LT over winter whilst CTL takes a hit
Build CTL again in sprint whilst maintain LT workouts
Once CTL peaks again - not sure what next, focus on LT again but maintain CTL???
The focus on LT over winter again and so on....

The only goals I have really is just to increase my average over 60 miles for sportives next year and keep up on Sunday fast group rides as I would like to move up to the quicker group which is a jump in average speed at present, currently im in the 15-16mph ave bracket but would like to be in the 18-19mph bracket to keep up

Cheers and sorry for all the questions, these have been bugging me for a while.....

Alex_Simmons/RST

1. You're probably doing them wrong (too hard) but impossible to say really. How are you pacing them?
It's OK to combine interval types but not necessary.
No, you are not getting more benefit from the first interval. It doesn't work like that.

2. Yes, you will plateau, and quite possibly sooner than you think, and in more ways than one.

3. Maybe. Insufficient information to provide a sensible and specific response. But I'd suggest ditching all that VO2max work, if indeed that is what you are actually doing.

Building CTL is building LT.

Gav888

Thanks Alex, was hoping you would be one of the replies

1. I am using HR and keeping cadence above 90 and my HR in the top half of Z4 (using 5 zones) for LT 2x20 workouts and I can just about complete each of the intervals which I believe that is the right level of pacing, ie if I cannot complete the set intervals its too hard, if I can complete all of them and still have some go left its too easy?

2. Could you expand on that please, why would you plateau. Im the sort of person that likes to know the in's and out's of it all so I have a full understanding

3. What additional information would you like, but in responce to your answer, why ditch VO2, isnt this required or is this more Crit specific?

Also, you mentioned building CTL is building LT, just to clarify part of building CTL includes LT workouts and longer rides but you can get a higher CTL just focusing on long Z3 rides for example so should you aim for as high a CTL as you can get before starting LT work or include it in the CTL building but not aiming for as high a CTL?

ut_och_cykla

My feeling is that doing the intervals mentioned by HRM means you wont see any change in HR or how it feels - but you should put out a little more power every session until you plateau. That's been my experience anyway. Once you plateau you need to do more (frequency) to carrying on improving pehaps?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Gav888 wrote:

Thanks Alex, was hoping you would be one of the replies

1. I am using HR and keeping cadence above 90 and my HR in the top half of Z4 (using 5 zones) for LT 2x20 workouts and I can just about complete each of the intervals which I believe that is the right level of pacing, ie if I cannot complete the set intervals its too hard, if I can complete all of them and still have some go left its too easy?

2. Could you expand on that please, why would you plateau. Im the sort of person that likes to know the in's and out's of it all so I have a full understanding

3. What additional information would you like, but in responce to your answer, why ditch VO2, isnt this required or is this more Crit specific?

Also, you mentioned building CTL is building LT, just to clarify part of building CTL includes LT workouts and longer rides but you can get a higher CTL just focusing on long Z3 rides for example so should you aim for as high a CTL as you can get before starting LT work or include it in the CTL building but not aiming for as high a CTL?

1. not sure what your zones are, hard to say. But provided you can actually complete the workout and (if on a trainer) the speed is not falling away (and the trainer has a consistent speed-power relationship) then they are probably about the right level.
Nevertheless, L4 efforts don't need to be so hard as to be right on the edge of ability, in order to gain the benefit. Bit like chasing a PB each week, it's counter productive.

2. once the body adapts to a stimulus/workload then progression stalls. steady CTL may be a sign of stagnation, depends upon composition of training as well.

3. I don't provide any more than general advice on an open forum, as I would need to know a lot about you, your recent and long term riding, racing and other sports history, goals, physiology, medical conditions/medications, age, diet, training patterns, performance testing data, morphological data, assessment of riding capabilities, power profile if possible, etc etc.

The time course for adaptations at levels above threshold is pretty short, and if too much is done on a frequent basis it can induce an unplanned peak, and/or have an undesired impact on motivation. YMMV.

One can improve LT substantially without riding at or above threshold power level, but nothing wrong with including threshold work most of the time in training. It's not an either/or scenario.

Gav888

LOL love the way you've written it, just answering the questions but leaving more questions to be answered

Happy to take it offline but suspect it would be chargeable

So I guess I need to research 'time course for adaptations' at levels below LT so I can get a rough idea of how long the body takes to adapt to a typical Z3 workout or Z4 workout... I think I read somewhere that Z5 takes 3 or 4 weeks before the body adapts?

Friel uses input/output to work this out so I guess it depends on how the body adapts and everyone is different, ive found recently doing a 1hr tempo ride on the turbo keeping HR in the top half of the zone (so as constant as possible) my speed drops towards the end of the hour so I suspect I can still make gains from a Z3 session using Friel's method, but is there any other way?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Gav888 wrote:

So I guess I need to research 'time course for adaptations' at levels below LT so I can get a rough idea of how long the body takes to adapt to a typical Z3 workout or Z4 workout... I think I read somewhere that Z5 takes 3 or 4 weeks before the body adapts?

Adaptations happen in a matter of hours, days, weeks, months and years.

As a rough rule of thumb, the higher the relative intensity, the shorter the adaptation phase.
e.g. VO2max adaptations from hard L5/6 work will plateau in a matter of weeks (4-7 typically).
but VO2max adaptation are not solely attained from work at L5/6, so it's not so simple (e.g one can lift VO2max quite substantially but never do anything harder than Level3/4 work - much depends on where you are starting from).

Anaerobic adaptations from hard L6/7 work are shorter still, yet one can work on it season on season, so there are longer term adaptations as well.

Sub-maximal aerobic adaptations occur over weeks, months and years.

Other things, such as gross metabolic efficiency have adaptation time frames measured in years (decade).

Gav888 wrote:

Friel uses input/output to work this out so I guess it depends on how the body adapts and everyone is different, ive found recently doing a 1hr tempo ride on the turbo keeping HR in the top half of the zone (so as constant as possible) my speed drops towards the end of the hour so I suspect I can still make gains from a Z3 session using Friel's method, but is there any other way?

I would suggest forgetting about holding a steady HR when riding near threshold (or above), as the speed drop is an indication of falling power output. While the difference in actual adaptation is probably small in such cases (it's about being at the right level, not a precise power) if nothing else it's reinforcing poor pacing habits.

Gav888

Thanks for all the information Alex, it's been very useful.