avoiding a full bladder for a morning event

neeb

This might sound a bit weird, but a serious problem I have with events that start in morning is how to avoid having a full bladder during the first 30 minutes...

I'm a classic night-owl and do nearly all of my training in the evenings. I always seem to lose a lot of water from my body overnight (sometimes I can be nearly 2kg lighter in the morning!), so I usually drink lots of water (as well as a large jug of strong coffee) before / after breakfast. Basically, it takes me several hours to fully wake up and hydrate in the mornings, and I'm usually passing water quite frequently until mid-morning. I have found in the past that even if I empty the bladder immediately before a morning event, it fills up again during the first 30mins.. Obviously I could avoid this if I didn't drink so much in the morning, but then I would risk not being fully hydrated.

Any tips? Personally, I just don't understand why so many people seem to want to be active at that time of the day, as far as I'm concerned it's pretty unnatural..

dw300

Another hydration thread? .. I think people are starting to take the pi$$.

Have you tried drinking less to see if it actually affects performance, or are you just assuming it will?

rsands

whats the reason for drinking so much? Do you feel thirsty or is it a case of your drinking water just to get "hydrated"?

simon_e

neeb wrote:

I usually drink lots of water (as well as a large jug of strong coffee) before / after breakfast. Basically, it takes me several hours to fully wake up and hydrate in the mornings, and I'm usually passing water quite frequently until mid-morning.

I'd say you're drinking far too much in the mornings if you're having to pee that often. Although coffee does seem to go through me quickly it is not really a diuretic, though it won't exactly help.

You shouldn't be weighing yourself more than weekly as it varies a lot daily, as you've found, and you shouldn't use overnight weight change to establish whether you're dehydrated. I saw a recent article about overhydration and Hyponatraemia but I forget where now; the essence was that marathon runners were drinking far more than necessary, many an arbitary amount of x cups/hour that had been suggested to them. It was also proposed that athletes may perform slightly better if a little dehydrated than when overhydrated. I did find a recent Guardian blog piece and http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7 ... -0,00.html

If you are taking a long time to wake up in the morning I suggest you change the time you go to bed. Turn off the computer or TV earlier or, even more radically, skip them completely for a few nights and see if that helps you get to sleep.

Keep an eye on the colour of your urine. If it starts getting a darker shade of yellow then you're probably not drinking enough. Straw-coloured or lighter is fine.

ut_och_cykla

drink sensibly - little and often all day. Drinking big quataties sets urination process to top speed - your blood has to be maiantained at a certain level of salts etc adn putting loads of liquid in all at once could make you wee - even if you are slightly dehydrated! Try giving coffee a miss or reducing quantity over a few days adn see if it helsp. Drinking lots of liquid to rehydrate and then drinking a JUG of coffee is counterinuitive for my way of thinking!

SBezza

I would bet the majority of people lose alot of water weight overnight, that is normal. As for drinking loads before an event, well yes if you drink lots before a morning event, then you have to expect the body to expel it at some stage.

As above, drinking moderate amounts during the day, and you should be fine, also drink fluid during your training sessions and afterwards.

Also the event duration will have a bearing on how hydrated you need to be, for some shorter events, being under hydrated will have little impact, obviously for longer duration events you need to make sure you are not that under hydrated, but even these you can normally drink during the event.

neeb

Thanks for the feedback

ut_och_cykla wrote:

drink sensibly - little and often all day. Drinking big quataties sets urination process to top speed - your blood has to be maiantained at a certain level of salts etc adn putting loads of liquid in all at once could make you wee - even if you are slightly dehydrated! Try giving coffee a miss or reducing quantity over a few days adn see if it helsp. Drinking lots of liquid to rehydrate and then drinking a JUG of coffee is counterinuitive for my way of thinking!

Yes, I do tend to be a "gulper" - I'll happily not drink for ages and then down a pint or two when I want/need it. The thing is , this seems to work pretty well for me, if I have drunk enough before a long event I can get by on relatively small quantities during it, as long as I'm not sweating lots. I'm definitely not someone who drinks a certain amount because that's what someone/something has calculated I need, I prefer to go by what my body is telling me, and in the mornings it's telling me I need to hydrate. Main issue here I think is just that my metabolism isn't geared up for mornings, so my habits and and daily routines are based around hydrating more in the mornings and riding in the evenings.

Simon E wrote:

If you are taking a long time to wake up in the morning I suggest you change the time you go to bed. Turn off the computer or TV earlier or, even more radically, skip them completely for a few nights and see if that helps you get to sleep.

Yes, I've tried all this in the past but the bottom line is that I just have a night-owl physiology, I'm healthiest being active later in the day, going to bed later and getting up later. I'm lucky that I have a job that lets me work the hours I want.

HoHoHoBlueGiant

I used to have the same sort of issue. I'd forget to drink and then down a full 500 ml bottle in one go. I'd then have to stop every 10 minutes as it just went straight through me.

I now set a reminder on my phone to go off every 15 minutes. 3 or 4 swigs a time and I get through a 500ml bottle roughly every hour and never have to stop.

simon_e

neeb wrote:

Yes, I do tend to be a "gulper" - I'll happily not drink for ages and then down a pint or two when I want/need it. The thing is , this seems to work pretty well for me

So why ask the question?

neeb wrote:

the bottom line is that I just have a night-owl physiology, I'm healthiest being active later in the day, going to bed later and getting up later.

That's not physiology, that is behaviour. It is certainly not any healthier to stay up late at night and sleep late.

I'm not sure why you posed the question in the first place, as you have merely defended your behaviour and ignored most of the answers given. In future I'll not waste my time.

neeb

Simon E wrote:

neeb wrote:

Yes, I do tend to be a "gulper" - I'll happily not drink for ages and then down a pint or two when I want/need it. The thing is , this seems to work pretty well for me

So why ask the question?

neeb wrote:

the bottom line is that I just have a night-owl physiology, I'm healthiest being active later in the day, going to bed later and getting up later.

That's not physiology, that is behaviour. It is certainly not any healthier to stay up late at night and sleep late.

I'm not sure why you posed the question in the first place, as you have merely defended your behaviour and ignored most of the answers given. In future I'll not waste my time.

Ch*st, some people here are touchy. First thing I did was thank everyone for the feedback, maybe I won't bother next time either.

What do you want me to do, say "oh, of course, you are completely correct, I'd never thought of any of that"? The point of a forum is dialogue, you can't expect everything you say to be taken as gospel. The reason I posted was simply to see if anyone else had the same issues and how they dealt with it, it's an open-ended discussion, not some consultation service..

Simon E wrote:

That's not physiology, that is behaviour. It is certainly not any healthier to stay up late at night and sleep late.

It is if your diurnal patterns work better that way. It's well established that some people function better in the mornings and some in the evenings and that due to differences in melatonin/light response levels we don't all naturally want to sleep at exactly the same times. It is certainly NOT healthy to be permanently sleep deprived by trying to fit your sleep habits into a pattern that suits other people. Believe me, this is something I have some experience with, don't get me started... There is a lot of ill-informed prejudice about this in society in general.

simon_e

neeb wrote:

The reason I posted was simply to see if anyone else had the same issues and how they dealt with it, it's an open-ended discussion, not some consultation service..

You appear to have batted away any suggestions which involve changing your habits with "this is how I am" or "it's what I like" type response, which suggest you don't really want to contemplate changing anything. There are lots of people who post questions and really only want confirmation for answers. I stand by my earlier conclusion.

It seems you're as touchy as anyone in this thread. Open-ended discussion? Only if it flows as you'd like it it to, it seems. And you're not the only one who has to live with screwed up sleeping patterns, or worse.

thiscocks

Simon E wrote:

neeb wrote:

The reason I posted was simply to see if anyone else had the same issues and how they dealt with it, it's an open-ended discussion, not some consultation service..

You appear to have batted away any suggestions which involve changing your habits with "this is how I am" or "it's what I like" type response, which suggest you don't really want to contemplate changing anything. There are lots of people who post questions and really only want confirmation for answers. I stand by my earlier conclusion.

It seems you're as touchy as anyone in this thread. Open-ended discussion? Only if it flows as you'd like it it to, it seems. And you're not the only one who has to live with screwed up sleeping patterns, or worse.

+1

If you don't want a full bladder then drink less. Pretty fucking amazing, but it works!

neeb

Simon E wrote:

neeb wrote:

The reason I posted was simply to see if anyone else had the same issues and how they dealt with it, it's an open-ended discussion, not some consultation service..

You appear to have batted away any suggestions which involve changing your habits with "this is how I am" or "it's what I like" type response, which suggest you don't really want to contemplate changing anything. There are lots of people who post questions and really only want confirmation for answers. I stand by my earlier conclusion.

The problem here is that you are basically taking it for granted that your advice is completely appropriate and new to me, and thus that any "batting away" (I'd just call it "putting in context") must be due to a failure on my part to appreciate this. This is simply astounding arrogance, unless you happen to be a professional sports physiology councillor or something (in which unlikely case you should have said so).

Simon E wrote:

It seems you're as touchy as anyone in this thread. Open-ended discussion? Only if it flows as you'd like it it to, it seems. And you're not the only one who has to live with screwed up sleeping patterns, or worse.

Hmm, nope, I'm only touchy when shoved. Your response ("in future I'll not waste my time" etc) was completely OTT in the circumstances. Incidentally, I do not have "screwed up sleeping patterns" simply because I sleep best from 12:30 till 8:30 (that would be the prejudice I was talking about earlier). As far as I'm concerned, the people with the screwed up sleeping patterns are the ones who can't stay awake at 9pm (when I'm often still out riding), and who then insist on imposing their routines on everyone else.

Herbsman

neeb wrote:

Simon E wrote:

neeb wrote:

The reason I posted was simply to see if anyone else had the same issues and how they dealt with it, it's an open-ended discussion, not some consultation service..

You appear to have batted away any suggestions which involve changing your habits with "this is how I am" or "it's what I like" type response, which suggest you don't really want to contemplate changing anything. There are lots of people who post questions and really only want confirmation for answers. I stand by my earlier conclusion.

The problem here is that you are basically taking it for granted that your advice is completely appropriate and new to me, and thus that any "batting away" (I'd just call it "putting in context") must be due to a failure on my part to appreciate this. This is simply astounding arrogance, unless you happen to be a professional sports physiology councillor or something (in which unlikely case you should have said so).

Simon E wrote:

It seems you're as touchy as anyone in this thread. Open-ended discussion? Only if it flows as you'd like it it to, it seems. And you're not the only one who has to live with screwed up sleeping patterns, or worse.

Hmm, nope, I'm only touchy when shoved. Your response ("in future I'll not waste my time" etc) was completely OTT in the circumstances. Incidentally, I do not have "screwed up sleeping patterns" simply because I sleep best from 12:30 till 8:30 (that would be the prejudice I was talking about earlier). As far as I'm concerned, the people with the screwed up sleeping patterns are the ones who can't stay awake at 9pm (when I'm often still out riding), and who then insist on imposing their routines on everyone else.

neeb

Herbsman wrote:

neeb wrote:

Simon E wrote:

neeb wrote:

The reason I posted was simply to see if anyone else had the same issues and how they dealt with it, it's an open-ended discussion, not some consultation service..

You appear to have batted away any suggestions which involve changing your habits with "this is how I am" or "it's what I like" type response, which suggest you don't really want to contemplate changing anything. There are lots of people who post questions and really only want confirmation for answers. I stand by my earlier conclusion.

The problem here is that you are basically taking it for granted that your advice is completely appropriate and new to me, and thus that any "batting away" (I'd just call it "putting in context") must be due to a failure on my part to appreciate this. This is simply astounding arrogance, unless you happen to be a professional sports physiology councillor or something (in which unlikely case you should have said so).

Simon E wrote:

It seems you're as touchy as anyone in this thread. Open-ended discussion? Only if it flows as you'd like it it to, it seems. And you're not the only one who has to live with screwed up sleeping patterns, or worse.

Hmm, nope, I'm only touchy when shoved. Your response ("in future I'll not waste my time" etc) was completely OTT in the circumstances. Incidentally, I do not have "screwed up sleeping patterns" simply because I sleep best from 12:30 till 8:30 (that would be the prejudice I was talking about earlier). As far as I'm concerned, the people with the screwed up sleeping patterns are the ones who can't stay awake at 9pm (when I'm often still out riding), and who then insist on imposing their routines on everyone else.

Yup, that too. Completely agree. Wibble.

Pigtail

Okay - I tend to ride early in the morning. I drink a lot in the evening, have two cups of green tea in the morning and then go to the toilet and out. I've never had to go to the toilet on an early morning run.

I've done 2 early morning start sportives and both of them I took 2 cups of green tea first as usual, went to the toilet then drank a cup of strong coffee. I then went to the start and used the toilet again, just before going to the line. Both of them I carried 2 full 750-800 ml bottles, and made it round in 4 hours plus without stopping or toileting. You aren't hydrating because you need it, you're over-hydrating. Your pattern works for your evening rides, just as mine works for my early morning rides, but it won't work for an early start.

Try 2 pints in the evening, an early bed, you might have to get up overnight to the toilet. Then get up half an hour earlier than you absolutely need to, take your time over your preparation and try to get to the toilet twice before starting. It would be helpful to start the drink in the evening and early bed a couple of nights before, but that might be too much to ask!

neeb

Pigtail wrote:

Your pattern works for your evening rides, just as mine works for my early morning rides, but it won't work for an early start.

Yeah, I probably just drink too much in the morning because I usually can, and it's a good time to hydrate if I train in the evenings. I guess I need to sort out a different routine for morning starts...

Thanks everyone for the tips (including Simon E - believe it or not, I did find some of what you said useful..).

giropaul

A few observations if I may:

- Hydration is probably the greatest priority. However, before any significant ride I'd say that you need to be up and breakfasting at least 3 hrs before the start. That should give time for your body to "stabilise".
- Most people can alter their body clocks - for instance when they go on holiday abroad. Van Impe, when he won the Tour, starting living in French time (rather than Belgian, which was different then) for a month or more before the race, to get his biorythms in line. Several good time triallists I know live to a 4am getting up, 8pm bedtime system in the season. Yes, they might be better earlier ofr later (owl v lark), but they've altered the framing.
- If you are road racing or time trialling I appreciate that there can be an issue. However, nerves are the biggest factor often - peeing is a nervous response based on the old fight/flight response. In long road races there can be "natural breaks" called, but in most amateur events they're too short. It's marvellous though how being on full gas takes your mind off wanting a pee! If all else fails just pee in your shorts - it's what the pros do once the hammer is down!
- If your event isn't a race e.g. a sportive, just stop and have a pe, you're ot losing anything and anyway you can only lose a fraction of the time a puncture migh take. If you want to stay with a group of mates declare a stop - several others may be grateful!

PS - dump the coffee with breakfast - it's a diuretic - nearer the ride start time will have a more useful effect anyway

briantrumpet

giropaul wrote:

If your event isn't a race e.g. a sportive

What?!

neeb

Thanks for that:

giropaul wrote:

- Hydration is probably the greatest priority. However, before any significant ride I'd say that you need to be up and breakfasting at least 3 hrs before the start. That should give time for your body to "stabilise".
- Most people can alter their body clocks - for instance when they go on holiday abroad. Van Impe, when he won the Tour, starting living in French time (rather than Belgian, which was different then) for a month or more before the race, to get his biorythms in line. Several good time triallists I know live to a 4am getting up, 8pm bedtime system in the season. Yes, they might be better earlier ofr later (owl v lark), but they've altered the framing.

Yes, I can alter my body clock if I am really determined, but setting it earlier is SO much more difficult for me than moving it later. Although I said I was an "owl", I think the main issue I have is that my body clock will always drift forward unless I go to great lengths to stop it. It's like it's designed to work on a 24.5 hour cycle rather than 24. It seems to be able to settle down to a pattern of going to bed between midnight and 1am, but it's a constant effort to keep it there and a huge effort to pull it back further.

giropaul wrote:

- If you are road racing or time trialling I appreciate that there can be an issue. However, nerves are the biggest factor often - peeing is a nervous response based on the old fight/flight response. In long road races there can be "natural breaks" called, but in most amateur events they're too short. It's marvellous though how being on full gas takes your mind off wanting a pee! If all else fails just pee in your shorts - it's what the pros do once the hammer is down!
- If your event isn't a race e.g. a sportive, just stop and have a pe, you're ot losing anything and anyway you can only lose a fraction of the time a puncture migh take. If you want to stay with a group of mates declare a stop - several others may be grateful!

I think I have been a nervous drinker in the past , I just find it so easy to down a pint or two of water without really thinking about it. Anyway, my event today was OK, I mostly avoided water in the morning (I drank plenty the evening before and a pint in the middle of the night) and had my coffee early enough for it to go through before the start.