Moda Legato CX bike

antlaff

My choice for all rounder is from the below Surly Disc Trucker or Kinesis Decade built up with Campag Athena 11sp

http://road.cc/content/review/66658-surly-disc-trucker

or

http://www.kinesisdecade.co.uk/product.php?id=1

will probably source a cheap second set of disc wheels to put marathon winters on so no hassle of changing tyres during the winter.

meanredspider

antlaff wrote:

marathon winters on so no hassle of changing tyres during the winter.

I went the Marathon Winters route last winter (on a Boardman CX) but, honestly, I was disappointed - the tyres were the weak link in what seemed to be a great plan:

- they are stupendously heavy at nearly 1kg each
- the studs are too spaced out (I came off - the only time in 3 winters - and busted the rear mech hanger)
- the studs fell out far too easily

I reverted to my MTB with Ice Spiker Pros - a set-up that is actually lighter than the CX set-up despite the shocks and the big fat tyres, better on the ice (the Spiker Pros having far more studs despite being considerably lighter than the W***ers - I've never even skidded), and more robust (the Pros studs stay in better despite the hydraulic discs on the MTB). Added to which, if it's cold enough for studded tyres, there's rarely any wind (even up here), so drop bars aren't so much of an advantage as I'd hoped.

tgotb

OP, how comfortable are you building a bike yourself?

I put my CX bike together for less than £500, and imho it's as good as any of these and better than most. Saved money by buying some bits (groupset, bars, seatpost, saddle) second-hand from forums/ebay; the frame, disk brakes and wheels were all new, but I shopped around a bit. I built my own wheels, but then picked up an reasonably good, almost unused second set for less than I'd spent on the original hubs.

46/36 chainset is quite popular for cross racing (though admittedly less useful for general use).

Disks are definitely more powerful, but even the best cable ones (Avid BB7) can be a bit finicky to set up. The power can take a bit of getting used to aswell; I briefly locked my rear wheel in front of CJCP the other week :shock:

Kieran_Burns

TGOTB wrote:

OP, how comfortable are you building a bike yourself?

I put my CX bike together for less than £500, and imho it's as good as any of these and better than most. Saved money by buying some bits (groupset, bars, seatpost, saddle) second-hand from forums/ebay; the frame, disk brakes and wheels were all new, but I shopped around a bit. I built my own wheels, but then picked up an reasonably good, almost unused second set for less than I'd spent on the original hubs.

46/36 chainset is quite popular for cross racing (though admittedly less useful for general use).

Disks are definitely more powerful, but even the best cable ones (Avid BB7) can be a bit finicky to set up. The power can take a bit of getting used to aswell; I briefly locked my rear wheel in front of CJCP the other week :shock:

Ummmmm..... :?

I think that kind of says it all. I can maintain a bike pretty well and have swapped out most parts in the past but some things I leave to people who know.

Plus (being entirely honest) I like a bit of bling 8)

meanredspider

TGOTB wrote:

, but even the best cable ones (Avid BB7) can be a bit finicky to set up.

Sorry but I can't agree that BB7s are in the slightest bit finicky to set up. If you need some tips, take a look at the Volagi BB7 set up guide on YouTube - it's a doddle

Kieran_Burns

I've pretty much decided on the Felt F65x - I'm 6' tall 32" inside leg... 55 or 57?

Kieran_Burns

Bike purchased... now the waiting begins

I'm not clicking on refresh on the order status page every 5 seconds honest....

veronese68

Kieran_Burns wrote:

I've pretty much decided on the Felt F65x - I'm 6' tall 32" inside leg... 55 or 57?

I hope you got a 57, that'll fit me better. That's a very sensible decision and I'm not remotely jealous.

First.Aspect

meanredspider wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

, but even the best cable ones (Avid BB7) can be a bit finicky to set up.

Sorry but I can't agree that BB7s are in the slightest bit finicky to set up. If you need some tips, take a look at the Volagi BB7 set up guide on YouTube - it's a doddle

Two things about mechanical discs -

1. Not more powerful than good road brakes. More predictable, better rim life, yes, but not more powerful in my experience. A good option for autumn, winter and spring for that reason.
2. Not as easy to live with as hydraulic discs. Only one pad moves. So for best feel, the inside pad has to be very close to the disc. I was forever fiddling with mine to keep them feeling sharp. Hydraulics remain centred.

Some of this sensitivity of pad position to lever feel may improve with this new zero compression housing SRAM have now, but see 1.

The BB7's aren't particularly good quality either. Last two winters (that I was actually cycling) have been shared between the mtb with some ageing hydraulic calipers and a disc cross bike. The avids were peeling ugly looking things by the end of it, the old alloy hydraulics still look pretty good. No pitting, certainly no peeling. I'm a lazy so and so when it comes to cleaning, admittedly, but I also found that the inner pad adjustsment ring on the avids seizes up, and I had to bring out the mole grips to get it going again a few times. I'm not a fan. There must be a better way to do mechanical discs.

For these reasons, I'm trying one of these cable/hydraulic converters. So far so good. Still pretty spongey lever feel because of the cable run from the lever to the stem, but significantly more power and a distinct improvement in feel. They are a bit heavier than a normal road setup, but then so too are most of us. Take a cr@p before a ride to make up for it.

antlaff

Kieran_Burns wrote:

btw - I am still looking. It seems impossible to find a CX bike that has guard mounts that isn't sold by Specialized....

(the F65x is kind of the favourite at the moment, I'd just swap the chainwheel for a compact)

What like a Croix De Fer...really like the new slate grey colour

http://www.realcycles.com/m37b158s199p4298/_GENESIS_Croix_De_Fer_2013/RS_GB/9675

meanredspider

First Aspect wrote:

Two things about mechanical discs -

1. Not more powerful than good road brakes. More predictable, better rim life, yes, but not more powerful in my experience. A good option for autumn, winter and spring for that reason.
2. Not as easy to live with as hydraulic discs. Only one pad moves. So for best feel, the inside pad has to be very close to the disc. I was forever fiddling with mine to keep them feeling sharp. Hydraulics remain centred.

Don't want to take the thread too off-topic but I simply don't agree with point 1 - at 90kg (and at 40mph), I really really notice the difference. In the wet (even compared to the "wet weather" rim pads) there's absolutely no comparison.
I also feel they're really easy to live with - I hardly touch mine. I adjust the inner with a Torx screwdriver once in a while. Hydraulics are generally easier until they need bleeding. It's all opinion of course but I never wish for a better brake which I often did when I was running rim brakes on my Cayo and Variado

First.Aspect

meanredspider wrote:

First Aspect wrote:

Two things about mechanical discs -

1. Not more powerful than good road brakes. More predictable, better rim life, yes, but not more powerful in my experience. A good option for autumn, winter and spring for that reason.
2. Not as easy to live with as hydraulic discs. Only one pad moves. So for best feel, the inside pad has to be very close to the disc. I was forever fiddling with mine to keep them feeling sharp. Hydraulics remain centred.

Don't want to take the thread too off-topic but I simply don't agree with point 1 - at 90kg (and at 40mph), I really really notice the difference. In the wet (even compared to the "wet weather" rim pads) there's absolutely no comparison.
I also feel they're really easy to live with - I hardly touch mine. I adjust the inner with a Torx screwdriver once in a while. Hydraulics are generally easier until they need bleeding. It's all opinion of course but I never wish for a better brake which I often did when I was running rim brakes on my Cayo and Variado

Yes, the wet weather predictability is good. Either way I found that they needed constant adjustment ("constant" being every week or so).

We'll just have to disagree about power - perhaps the absolute top end is better, who knows. I certainly didn't ever have any problems with them coming down from Lowther summit (other than touching the discs once out of curiosity). But then I never had any issues with 105 or Mavic road brakes on my other bikes either.

However I maintain that if you get mechanical discs for the sensation of mtb like stopping power and feel which will pull your eyeballs out, you will be disappointed. And I was. All that said, they are absolutely the way to go for year round commuting, because you will never wear through the things holding your tyres on.

meanredspider

First Aspect wrote:

Yes, the wet weather predictability is good. Either way I found that they needed constant adjustment ("constant" being every week or so).

We'll just have to disagree about power - perhaps the absolute top end is better, who knows. I certainly didn't ever have any problems with them coming down from Lowther summit (other than touching the discs once out of curiosity). But then I never had any issues with 105 or Mavic road brakes on my other bikes either.

However I maintain that if you get mechanical discs for the sensation of mtb like stopping power and feel which will pull your eyeballs out, you will be disappointed. And I was. All that said, they are absolutely the way to go for year round commuting, because you will never wear through the things holding your tyres on.

I think one of the big differences between these and MTB brakes is the rotor size. If you think of the mechanics of it, you have the same lever pressure and movement being translated into the same pad pressure (for a given pad and disc). Apart from slight cable elasticity (which just shows up as a slightly longer lever throw), mechanically there should be no difference. I adjust mine about once a month (400-500 miles) - and I am happy to do 40mph with 400 lumens

veronese68

The problem with trying to compare MTB brakes with road bike brakes is that there are so many other differences. MTB tyres may put more rubber on the road, the compression in the front forks may make it feel like you are decelerating more than you actually are, the geometry of the frame could allow the MTB to brake harder before lifting the back wheel and I'm sure there are many more.
As we all seem to agree most discs would be better for the kind of riding I do. The problem is getting a new bike approved by the EPO.

UndercoverElephant

Still not convinced that discs will be great for road riding, especially after reading:

http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa ... they-work/

tgotb

UndercoverElephant wrote:

Still not convinced that discs will be great for road riding, especially after reading:

http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa ... they-work/

For road use, the only advantage I see is that your wheels should last almost indefinitely, rotors being far easier and cheaper to replace than rims.

Although the performance of a disk is presumably going to be better, that's of questionable benefit because brake performance really shouldn't be a limiting factor anyway. On a well set up road bike, my experience is that you should have enough power to lock either wheel in pretty much any conditions anyway, so a more powerful brake is pretty superfluous.

I went for discs on the cross bike, purely because cantis don't work very well, and calipers obviously aren't an option. Brake fade is never going to be an issue in cross.

I might consider them on a commuter, but only in order to avoid having to replace my rims every 18 months. Maybe they're worth considering for touring, but I'd be concerned about the brake fade issue. I wonder whether you could develop a device to spray them with water on long descents :-)

Edit: One of the advantages of rim brakes, which people sometiems forget, is that you effectively have a 700c rotor.

I'm not serious about the water thing. It would presumably work, but I imagine it would also warp your discs...

meanredspider

UndercoverElephant wrote:

Still not convinced that discs will be great for road riding, especially after reading:

http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa ... they-work/

After 2000 miles, I'm convinced. If the idiot dragged his brakes for a distance down the hill, no wonder they failed: try the same thing in a car and you'll get the same result. Try the same thing on carbon wheels and rim brakes and you'll blow a tyre (interestingly the author avoids this question altogether - yet there are rides in the States where they've banned carbon rims due to the number of incidents). If he'd had any presence of mind, he'd have actually come off the brakes and then reapplied them or alternated front & rear braking.

meanredspider

TGOTB wrote:

Although the performance of a disk is presumably going to be better, that's of questionable benefit because brake performance really shouldn't be a limiting factor anyway. On a well set up road bike, my experience is that you should have enough power to lock either wheel in pretty much any conditions anyway, so a more powerful brake is pretty superfluous.

We'll end up going over the well-rehearsed arguments like a mini helmet debate thread but it's not about power it's about control (modulation in order to effectively use that power). Locking of the wheel is a very poor measure of brake effectiveness. I bet if you take one of the cheapest road car braking systems, you can stamp on the brake pedal and lock the front wheels. So are all the car racers/rallyists wasting their money on big brakes? Of course not - it's about being able to use every last newton of grip available.

tgotb

meanredspider wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

Although the performance of a disk is presumably going to be better, that's of questionable benefit because brake performance really shouldn't be a limiting factor anyway. On a well set up road bike, my experience is that you should have enough power to lock either wheel in pretty much any conditions anyway, so a more powerful brake is pretty superfluous.

We'll end up going over the well-rehearsed arguments like a mini helmet debate thread but it's not about power it's about control (modulation in order to effectively use that power). Locking of the wheel is a very poor measure of brake effectiveness. I bet if you take one of the cheapest road car braking systems, you can stamp on the brake pedal and lock the front wheels. So are all the car racers/rallyists wasting their money on big brakes? Of course not - it's about being able to use every last newton of grip available.

I'm not trying to pull your chain (promise!) but I'm not convinced that there's anything wrong with the modulation on my road calipers. I certainly seem to have plenty of control over how hard I'm braking, and no issues being able to brake hard without (quite) lifting the back wheel. In my case, I actually find the calipers more progressive than the discs; I've locked my rear wheel a couple of times on the crosser, and although that's almost certainly my fault rather than the bike's, it does suggest that there's no fundamental issue with the caliper setup.

What's intrinsically better about the disk setup on a bike, that improves modulation? In one case you're squeezing a metal wheel rim between two pads, in the other you're squeezing a metal disc between two pads. I'm sure we'd agree that a decent disc brake is better than a rubbish caliper, and also that a decent caliper is better than a rubbish disc, so what is it about discs that makes their modulation inherently better?

meanredspider

TGOTB wrote:

so what is it about discs that makes their modulation inherently better?

Well - there's lots of reasons:

1. You can tune the braking area to the application: disc diameter and pad/disc surface area being two that are inherently "fixed" on a rim brake: so for any given applied force at the levers, you can tune where that brake force is applied at the wheel.
2. The overall braking force is far more linear on disc brakes. This may be because of the nature of the materials used: rubber blocks compress and are more likely to snatch vs pad materials that are effectively "hard" and the compounds of which are very tuneable and very well understood. I'm not sure you'll find rubber blocks used on any other braking system in the world.
3. Rim brakes are less inherently stiff than disc brakes - they are larger needing more reach and gap and flex more in all directions than disc brakes. Stiffness = linearity = better modulation. The same can probably be said for the braking surface - a thin metal disc is almost incompressible - the rim of a wheel isn't.

and so on

tgotb

meanredspider wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

so what is it about discs that makes their modulation inherently better?

Well - there's lots of reasons:

1. You can tune the braking area to the application: disc diameter and pad/disc surface area being two that are inherently "fixed" on a rim brake: so for any given applied force at the levers, you can tune where that brake force is applied at the wheel.
2. The overall braking force is far more linear on disc brakes. This may be because of the nature of the materials used: rubber blocks compress and are more likely to snatch vs pad materials that are effectively "hard" and the compounds of which are very tuneable and very well understood. I'm not sure you'll find rubber blocks used on any other braking system in the world.
3. Rim brakes are less inherently stiff than disc brakes - they are larger needing more reach and gap and flex more in all directions than disc brakes. Stiffness = linearity = better modulation. The same can probably be said for the braking surface - a thin metal disc is almost incompressible - the rim of a wheel isn't.

and so on

Thanks, that all makes a lot of sense...

First.Aspect

And then you have mechanical discs with a compressible housing that does away with all of that and gives you the sensation of drums without servo assistance.

But they work. The bike stops.