650b... next big thing or just another gimmick?

lawman

Having seen numerous bike launches recently, from the likes of Scott, Cube, Norco and Rocky mounatin amongst others, and with wheel and tyre manufacturers seemingly coming on board big time too, are the days of 26" wheels coming to an end in the near future? Or is it just another option like 29ers that will be abit too niche for the masses? DH bikes with 650b wheels?

Where do you lot see it going and why? Will be interesting to see what folks think

supersonic

Just another option. They ain't that much bigger though - 26 rims are 559mm, 650b are 584mm.

While I like options, they will be pushed as the next big thing.

Anonymous

It's a halfway house for those who don't want to follow Americans too much but don't want to be too European either.

supersonic

All reminds me of tubeless. UST came out and everyone was raving about the increased grip, lower pressures and so on. Then suddenly we had tubeless conversions, a half way house, which was even better! Now a lot of people have simply gone back to tubes.

Wheel sizes may just be like this. When all the hype dies down, the we'll have three wheel sizes and no one will be best.

lawman

Is it going to be just an option though? Norco have made the range 650b specific, likewise rocky mountain with the altitude. Similar things are happening with 29ers, spesh don't make a 26" version of a lot of their bikes, so alot of their range is no exclusively 29er... Are we going to see the segments between xc/dh/am etc become even more than just a marketing tag, or will each have its own wheelsize as some manufacturers seem to be implying in their ranges?

supersonic

Maybe - I hope not though. Still a lot of life in 26ers, especially with nice fat tyres. And given that they are still regularly winning XC races (and just about all DH races), no one can say they are dead.

bennett_346

I see where you're coming from Lawman. I think they're testing the waters and seeing how far they can get away with. If it backfires they may just go back to offering their bikes in 26 inch by default.

lawman

I very much think we could be at the beginning of a real change in how bikes are classified for types of riding. I mean XC guys for the most part of fully embraced 29er's as the go-to machines, and 650b in the case of the guys for Scott like Schurter. After that though it gets abit cloudy, as the split between xc/trail and AM is going to take time to adjust, some are throwing all their eggs in the 650b basket, others like spesh, santa cruz are going 26 and 29, whilst some are staying on the fence and seeing how the market swings. Could it be that given a few model years, that we'll see a distinct 29" xc race, 650b am/trail, 26" DH/freeride market?

bennett_346

lawman wrote:

Could it be that given a few model years, that we'll see a distinct 29" xc race, 650b am/trail, 26" DH/freeride market?

Couldn't disagree more. I think the lines between disciplines will remain very indistinct.

supersonic

Absolon still rides a 26, and he's still just about the best. The womens XC olympic winner blitzed them on a 26er. Absolon would have probably done the same if it was not for the puncture. I just don't think you can say one is better than another - maybe it will be that the majority prefer one size, but individuals will have their preference.

Just like the whole FS/HT debate too.

warpcow

supersonic wrote:

When all the hype dies down, the we'll have three wheel sizes and no one will be best.

Agree with this (although these three have always been around, so it's only the hype that is new). There'll always be someone riding a DH 29er, or a 26" XC-racer. I do believe that 26" will probably become more of a minority in the mass-market though. I haven't even had an opportunity to ride a 29er yet. In fact I could probably count the total number I've ever seen on one hand, but it's all something I'd try to test next time I'm in the market for a bike.

I like the idea of frames that are convertible too, either through dropouts, or just masses of room (I know my Evil can take a 650b). Fork companies seem to be taking the p*ss slightly. If I've understood correctly Fox and RS are offering completely seperate 26", 650b and 29" ranges. Something like X-Fusion's model where the 26" forks are also 650b, or vice-versa, seems preferable.

lawman

supersonic wrote:

Absolon still rides a 26, and he's still just about the best. The womens XC olympic winner blitzed them on a 26er. Absolon would have probably done the same if it was not for the puncture. I just don't think you can say one is better than another - maybe it will be that the majority prefer one size, but individuals will have their preference.

Just like the whole FS/HT debate too.

Absalon is probably the best xc racer in the world, or was until recently, and being so he can ride whatever he pleases, his sponsors will make whatever bike he wants. I can't remember the last time I saw someone launch a 26" xc race bike.

supersonic

Not sure how X Fusion do this - you'd have thought that it would be too long, or too short with little mud clearance!

Squeezing 650b with a narrow tyre should be possible with most frames, but fail to see the point. If the overall end size will be the same, then why have a flexier wheel with a narrower tyre and less grip?!

Anonymous

I don't think we've got the terrain in the UK to justify 29ers. A lot of rugged, loose and sloppy, narrow slow running twisty stuff just isn't what I gather 29ers are good at. Big wide open, fast, long, big rocks, epic XC in dry mountains and canyons, that's what 29 is about... just like western US terrain

650b perhaps would suit UK better, but I don't really see the benefit other than to manufacturers who have something new and expensive to sell. If that's the case then 26er could suffer as supplies dry up in an effort to push the new stuff. Once saturated then something else has to be pushed.

warpcow

supersonic wrote:

Not sure how X Fusion do this - you'd have thought that it would be too long, or too short with little mud clearance!

Squeezing 650b with a narrow tyre should be possible with most frames, but fail to see the point. If the overall end size will be the same, then why have a flexier wheel with a narrower tyre and less grip?!

I think, from what I've seen, the X-fusions have a higher bridge but are spaced down to keep the a2c short for 26". When that spacer is changed, then it exposes more stanchion, allowing clearence for the 650b wheel, but still giving the same travel.

Frames depend. I've seen a Cube 26er with 650b, and you're right tyre size was limited to about 2.0 iirc. With an actual adjustable frame it should limit anything. Intense seem to be a good example of this.

Technically, 650b would seem ideal for certain Enduro (in the European sense) races, where extra speed could be carried without sacrificing manouverability. There was a good article in Dirt this month where 2 Enduro racers rode 26ers and 29ers back to back.

supersonic

Seems a compromise to me on design, think I prefer specific forks to reduce flex in exposed stanchion. but I can see the appeal.

MBR had an article too (as well as MBUK) and over short technical runs some shorter travel 29ers were faster. (sub 3 min runs). Not all though, and I'd like to see the results over many laps were weight will come more into play, and accelerating out of slow corners and the like.

lawman

warpcow wrote:

Technically, 650b would seem ideal for certain Enduro (in the European sense) races, where extra speed could be carried without sacrificing manouverability. There was a good article in Dirt this month where 2 Enduro racers rode 26ers and 29ers back to back.

Exactly this. Enduro is taking off massively,and I can see how the benefits of 650b over 26 could be useful, which I guess is why we're just starting to see long travel 650b bikes rather than 29ers

bennett_346

lawman wrote:

warpcow wrote:

Technically, 650b would seem ideal for certain Enduro (in the European sense) races, where extra speed could be carried without sacrificing manouverability. There was a good article in Dirt this month where 2 Enduro racers rode 26ers and 29ers back to back.

Exactly this. Enduro is taking off massively,and I can see how the benefits of 650b over 26 could be useful, which I guess is why we're just starting to see long travel 650b bikes rather than 29ers

But you are sacrificing manuverability, the wheel is still bigger. It's just less so. And you get minimal benefit from the extra speed carried because the effect is again, less pronounced.

Best of both worlds, or worst of both worlds? It isn't clear cut.

lawman

bennett_346 wrote:

lawman wrote:

warpcow wrote:

Technically, 650b would seem ideal for certain Enduro (in the European sense) races, where extra speed could be carried without sacrificing manouverability. There was a good article in Dirt this month where 2 Enduro racers rode 26ers and 29ers back to back.

Exactly this. Enduro is taking off massively,and I can see how the benefits of 650b over 26 could be useful, which I guess is why we're just starting to see long travel 650b bikes rather than 29ers

But you are sacrificing manuverability, the wheel is still bigger. It's just less so. And you get minimal benefit from the extra speed carried because the effect is again, less pronounced.

Best of both worlds, or worst of both worlds? It isn't clear cut.

The reason alot of 29er's feel less manuverable is the heavier wheels and longer chainstays and wheelbases. The chainstay on the new rocky mountains and norcos are actually shorter than my 26" Mojo HD and many other bikes of similar travel. Pinkbike even said they did not feel that the 650b wheels made no difference to handling response, that they contributed only to more effectively carrying speed and it was geometry that will make the biggest difference, rather than the wheelsize which is what dominates 29er's ride feel

supersonic

Larger wheels are harder to manual as well, are heavier, have more inertia, are harder to turn - geometry plays a big part, but is only half of it.

lawman

supersonic wrote:

Larger wheels are harder to manual as well, are heavier, have more inertia, are harder to turn - geometry plays a big part, but is only half of it.

So many people run large volume tyres now that surely the difference between running say a 2.5 minion on a 26" bike and a 2.2/2.3 650b tyre is going to be small? the larger tyres have a bigger contact patch, as we know from 29ers, thus have more grip, negating some of the need for bigger, grippier tyres and you end with a lighter package that handles very similar. I'm curious to see if you could do a blind test if you could tell the difference between the two, or whether there is a tangible advantage to either wheelsize. Will have to wait and see!

supersonic

Which is what I have been saying too. There seems to be some advantages to going for bigger tyres, rather than bigger wheels. If bigger is what you want, but all else been equal, my statement is true.

Larger tyres do not have a bigger contact patch - only at lower pressures, which are more easily run with larger tyres mind. 29ers have more lateral grip because the shape of the patch is elongated more, roughly 11% longer. But you lose inlimne traction, all being equal. You cannot have it both ways.

rockmonkeysc

It's more about the bike than wheel size. Every 29er I rode before this morning I didn't like.
I tried a Charge Cooker this morning and it felt more like a fun trail hardtail other than being a bit smoother and having better grip in the mud it felt almost like a normal steel trail hardtail. More fun to ride than any other 29er I have tried.

ddraver

bennett_346 wrote:

lawman wrote:

Could it be that given a few model years, that we'll see a distinct 29" xc race, 650b am/trail, 26" DH/freeride market?

Couldn't disagree more. I think the lines between disciplines will remain very indistinct.

I think it's more likely that on top top end bikes, Size small will have 26in, M will have 650b and L will have 29er....

Particularly on XC race bikes which are designed for all out speed above everything else...

YeehaaMcgee

lawman wrote:

Enduro is taking off massively

Lawman, don't get me wrong, but you seem to be one of those people for whom, if something's caught your eye, then it's suddenly "the next big thing".
Sonic is categorically refuting every supposed "pro" to big wheels, by pointing out that it's not a black-and-white scenario.
As for 650B? I seriously don't see the point. It's just nonsesne, like a 15mm thru-axle.

stubs

I keep reading that 29ers are the thing to buy these days but round my usual trails you hardly ever see them and I dont think I have ever seen a 650 though probably wouldnt notice anyway. My cousin lives in New Mexico USA and he says getting hold of a 26er that isnt a DH bike is like trying to get hold of rocking horse poo. The manufacturers have simply stopped bothering with quality hardtail 26ers in the USA and the only 26er non DH full suss you can buy is an expensive boutique brand.

Have to admit I am drooling over a Whyte T129 full susser at the mo and might be spanking the credit card next spring.

felix.london

Just a load of marketing faff if you ask me.

When you've got Norco naming these bikes (and whole ranges) The "Killer-B" Models it just sums it up for me :roll:

I'm all for choice..but really..what's the point of a wheel that's a tiny bit bigger than the norm and a tiny bit smaller than the bigger ones we've already got? if it's not to just sell more bikes to more monkeys

lawman

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

lawman wrote:

Enduro is taking off massively

Lawman, don't get me wrong, but you seem to be one of those people for whom, if something's caught your eye, then it's suddenly "the next big thing".
Sonic is categorically refuting every supposed "pro" to big wheels, by pointing out that it's not a black-and-white scenario.
As for 650B? I seriously don't see the point. It's just nonsesne, like a 15mm thru-axle.

I do have a tendency to make it look that way I'm just really curious about 650b, I kinda get the advantages/disadvantages of 29ers vs 26ers, and having not seen or ridden or ridden a 650b bike, I'm just interested to see what people think. It could well be the next big thing, and I'm happy with 26" wheels, just trying to get round to understanding why everyone is all over 650b even though its actually been around for a while, and why there seems to be a segregation occuring across disciplines.

YeehaaMcgee

I believe 650B is actually an old French standard - there really seems no reason for pushing it in mountain biking apart from metricising the wheel size, or grabbing people's wallet with "the new shiny" - the differences to 26" are so tiny.

wobbem

Save some money and try them on your frame. 8)
http://650bpalace.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/650b-from-26-convertable-list.html

supersonic

wobbem wrote:

Save some money and try them on your frame. 8)
http://650bpalace.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/650b-from-26-convertable-list.html

Sorta what I was on about earlier - just whack a bigger tyre on!