Pedalling form and using the right muscles at the right time

Mark mark slater

I find myself sliding myself back in the saddle when I pedal up hill and pressing the pedals through lowered ankles is this good pedalling form or bad, is this using the the best muscle groups? Or is it better to push through to the toes.
I know this might sound a but stupid and probably is, but if I can improve climbing hills by the changing the angle I have my ankle to optimise using the best muscle groups and preventing injury and improving myself as a rider I gotta know!
I find in the lower ankle position it tends to use the front of the leg and pushing through the toes uses more of the back of the leg muscles, is it just a case of finding what suits me as an individual or is there more sports science behind using proper pedalling form? I don't know answers on a post card please.

crescent

Quite difficult to visualise what you are describing but, from a general point of view, the correct pedalling technique should feel similar to operating a treddle, I've heard it referred to as "ankling" and this describes it fairly well. It does feel a bit strange at first but is worth persevering with. I found that by concentrating on pushing down on the downward stroke of pedalling action (naturally enough) and then concentrating on pulling up on the upward stroke (this takes a bit more practice) my ankles felt as if they automatically fell into a rotating movement after a few revolutions. The best place to practice this is on a nice flat piece of road where you can try the technique and work on building muscle memory and it will soon feel more natural and eventually become second nature.

Cheers

Alex_Simmons/RST

Where's Noel?
6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1....

alihisgreat

Don't force a pedalling technique.. you'll just get an injury. Do what you do normally and what feels natural because that's what works for you.


In terms of position on the saddle you can move forwards and backwards to engage different muscles... eg if you slide back you're using your glutes more.. but if you slide forward you're using your quads and hammies more.

I tend to slide back when I'm on a steeper climb (eg 10%+) and on longer shallower climbs I find its easier to move around and switch positions.

cyco2

Loads of info on 'pedalling action cycling' in google. My thinking is the ankle is the weakest joint in transmitting power to the pedals. So, developing a style that is comfortable with as little use as possible is more powerful. I have looked at various elite riders and they use a range of techniques which must work for them otherwise they wouldn't be elite. So, test your style against other riders and see how you get on. One day I reckon that a double lower leg amputee will join the ranks of elite riders and would be a formidable athlete.If not already.

bahzob

First thing. Before thinking about how to pedal its first necessary to get a good bike fit. You can't pedal well if you are in a bad position.

With this sorted, two things differentiate top riders when riding (including climbing) from the rest:
- Their cadence. It doesn't need to be 100rpm but it will always be over 70, mostly mid 80s.
- The smoothness of their style.

Bradley Wiggins is a very good example. He isn't a "natural" climber so has had to work on his technique. He's amongst the best now, he pretty much uses the same action/cadence regardless of gradient, just using gear selection to maintain smooth high revs and turn climbs into a vertical time trial.

Otherwise trying to express pedal actions in words is, as above shows, very tough. It extremely subjective and different people will have different feedback/sensations. While not as complicated as a golf swing its similar. Entire books have been written describing the former and most people still can't manage. They think they have a swing like Ernie Els til you show them a video of how they really look. In the same way most non elite riders think they pedal just like the pros.. they don't.

For this reason, if at all possible, best advice is try find and ride on a Wattbike. It has a display that gives you immediate direct visual feedback on how you are pedaling. If yours looks like the picture here

http://wattbike.com/uk/blog/post/proving_the_point_an_olympic_champions_polar_view

then you will be doing things pretty right. If not then its easy to experiment and find out which actions result in a smoother action and how this correlates with the power you can sustain.

dw300

Obviously, you're not a golfer.

Mark mark slater

Crescent wrote:

Quite difficult to visualise what you are describing but, from a general point of view, the correct pedalling technique should feel similar to operating a treddle, I've heard it referred to as "ankling" and this describes it fairly well. It does feel a bit strange at first but is worth persevering with. I found that by concentrating on pushing down on the downward stroke of pedalling action (naturally enough) and then concentrating on pulling up on the upward stroke (this takes a bit more practice) my ankles felt as if they automatically fell into a rotating movement after a few revolutions. The best place to practice this is on a nice flat piece of road where you can try the technique and work on building muscle memory and it will soon feel more natural and eventually become second nature.

Cheers

I am not using clip ins yet, but I am using death cages, I can get enough leveage to do the treddle technique offt I burn out so quick with my thighs on fire. I just want to power on till i burn out which isn't long, I suppose I need to find a steady rythem!?! About 90% is focused on the down stroke, although saying that I did burst a strap about 2weeks ago and I notice straight away and had to do a temp repair on the strap as it didn't feel right, it felt like I wasn't locked. I think I rely on it more than I think.
I have been dabbling with cycling this year mainly commuting to work and have definetly caught the bug, I am gradually building up my kit, I have went from a mountain bike to a road bike and cycling about 100 mile a week with the odd weekend ride of 30-50mile, now I am thinking of joining a cycle club but not sure if 1) my kit is up to scratch 2) my climbing is scratch 3) my pace is up to speed, seeing how you are from the Glasgow area do you know any good clubs for beginner to an optimistic intermediate?

Mark mark slater

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Where's Noel?
6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1....

Still looking for Wally once I find him I will start looking for Noel

Cheers for the comment

Mark mark slater

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

Don't force a pedalling technique.. you'll just get an injury. Do what you do normally and what feels natural because that's what works for you.


In terms of position on the saddle you can move forwards and backwards to engage different muscles... eg if you slide back you're using your glutes more.. but if you slide forward you're using your quads and hammies more.

I tend to slide back when I'm on a steeper climb (eg 10%+) and on longer shallower climbs I find its easier to move around and switch positions.

See I was thinking that, doing what comes natural. Granted not one style would suit everyone but there must be fundamental form techniques that improve performance, that isn't just genetics, I know that not every route is the same and knowing your limitations for pushing and recovery, I am not looking for the miracle cure just the the little thing I can work on to help improve me as rider, like your saddle positions tips and anything else I can learn

mac220

Hi,

I'm quite sceptical about over analysing pedal technique, maybe for top level elite riders it gives an extra edge when climbing but the reality is that for most normal riders I'm sure that it has little impact on our overall performance. I'm sure I read an paper maybe from peak performance a few years ago which found that most pro riders had a more of a stomp technique and didn't use ankling or any specific technique which are commonly put forward as the way to go

I don't have any evidence for this and am more than happy to be corrected by the very knowledgable coaches who contribute to this forum but my thinking goes as follows

Someone else mentioned that Brad wiggins had been working on his climbing pedaling technique and that he was now much better. I would argue that what he's improved is

1. His power to weight ratio
2. Understanding his strengths and weaknesses, know he can maintain a pace which allows him to get back to the pure climbers but can't respond immediately to their fast attacks
3. His pacing and a good knowledge of what he is capable of sustaining in terms of power output/pace on different climbs for different periods of time

'1.' speaks for itself, he can go up hill faster. '2/3.' means he knows when somebody attacks with a fast burst of speed he can pull them back by staying cool and knowing that overall the other riders won't be able sustain a higher average pace than him and therefore he'll more than likely be able to pull them back with a little help from his friends or worst case limit his losses 

None of this is about pedal technique and although they may have looked into it there's little chance that it would have as larger impact as the 3 points above and making sure he doesn't go into the red and start to crack as a result of trying to ride in the same style as true climbers.

The actual principle they are using is to understanding the game/tactic which most suits BW and stick to it, knowing it has the highest probability of working

For example the two games/tactics commonly employed on climbs:

Game 1 - respond to fast attacks by jumping after the attacker to quickly close the gap and neutralise the attack
Game 2 - ride your own race and when required up the pace a small amount to steadily close the gap on the repeated fast acceleration attacks, never putting yourself in the red and therefore at risk of cracking 

My point I would say is when climbing do what feels most comfortable and works best for you, if you are struggling up a hill then it's because your power to weight ratio isn't  high enough for the gears you have on your bike for the climb you are riding. Focus on increasing fitness and forget about the icing on the cake of a specific pedal technique. The reason BW looks good is because he's learnt not to put himself into difficulty, I'm sure if he tried to go with each of the attacks he would be lumbering up the climbs looking pretty bad. 

Hopefully I'm not way of the mark but am interested to see if I'm also close to it

Cheers,

Mark

Alex_Simmons/RST

mac220 wrote:

I'm quite sceptical about over analysing pedal technique, maybe for top level elite riders it gives an extra edge when climbing but the reality is that for most normal riders I'm sure that it has little impact on our overall performance. I'm sure I read an paper maybe from peak performance a few years ago which found that most pro riders had a more of a stomp technique and didn't use ankling or any specific technique which are commonly put forward as the way to go

Your memory is pretty reasonable (studies by Coyle et al, Korff et al and Martin et al), and agreed, pedal technique is way over blown.

Bahzob mentioned importance of good bike fit - this is fundamental and is where everyone should start. After that it's about doing lots of miles/hours over many years, focussing on effort in order to improve power output, and choosing appropriate gearing.

Anquetil, Merckx & Hinault all had totally different "techniques" or styles, yet all won TdF 5 times. Someone else mentioned lower leg amputees. I'm one of those, and managed to improve my power over my pre-amputation output. Ain't much "technique" involved when your lower leg is an aluminium pipe.

mac220 wrote:

Hopefully I'm not way of the mark but am interested to see if I'm also close to it

Nah, you're pretty well on the money.

For the OP - experiment for yourself and do what you feel enables you to achieve what you're after - improved climbing. It's not uncommon to slide back in the saddle a bit on climbs.

mac220

Great, alot of my view on this is from personal experience of struggling to climb well after being away form cycling for a while and having been a relatively good climber in the past then getting confirmation of it when I got in to reading about how to train and the sport science side of things.

I found when struggling on a climb I started to think about pedal techique as I was having difficulty getting the cranks round on steeper hills, thinking it must be some bad technique I had. Once I got my fitness back and started to climb much better I didn't think about pedalling technique at all I was able to concentrate on my pace and going as hard as I wanted to or responding to accerations by others.

The reason I mention this is I ended up wasting quite a lot of time thinking about pedal technique and trying to work on it whilst out training. When what I actually needed to do was get out there and train my FTP and get as much time in the bag in that zone as possible. I came to the conclusion after a while that when training FTP I started to always work between 90-95% of my FTP i.e. lower end of L4 as it allowed me to do significantly higher volumes of training and not get so tired from it but still get the the vast majority of improvement/adaptations that training at higher levels would give you.

I'm not sure what Alex or Rick would say about this but that really worked for me and I found that it left me in a better state and able to recover to give 100% effort to other training session i.e. short sprints/V02 Max sessions and very long rides 100miles + etc which I found I couldn't do so well if I'd been doing a lot of volume of L4 at 95-105% of FTP.

Any thoughts on that Alex?

Cheers,

Mark

Alex_Simmons/RST

mac220 wrote:

Any thoughts on that Alex?

It's often quite a successful method, until it isn't.

Like all training that works, eventually it stops working and you need to change things. And what works for a couple of seasons may not take you to the next level next year. But if you are seeing improved power, then keep on with it. There is often very little need for a lot of structured work above threshold, to improve threshold. But at some stage you have to lift the power.

And you are right, if you're thinking about how you are pedaling, you're wasting mental energy that should be going into staying safe and focussing on how hard you are working.

DesB3rd

One day I reckon that a double lower leg amputee will join the ranks of elite riders and would be a formidable athlete.If not already.

Yep, a nice carbon/alloy rod going down to simple (small) big-end - no oxygen hungry, technique concerned lower leg to worry about...

ncr

DesB3rd wrote:

One day I reckon that a double lower leg amputee will join the ranks of elite riders and would be a formidable athlete.If not already.

Yep, a nice carbon/alloy rod going down to simple (small) big-end - no oxygen hungry, technique concerned lower leg to worry about...

(Noel here Alex)

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Q. What makes it possible for a rider fitted with carbon/alloy pipes instead of lower legs to apply the same torque to his cranks as a rider with lower legs.

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A. Those with the lower legs don't know how to use them.

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In a TT where seconds saved can be all important, riders are wasting 10 mins or more out of every hour as their legs idle through the upper dead spot sector around 12 o'c, when with the correct lower leg/ankle technique they could be applying the same maximal torque here as they apply around 3 o'c.

indjke

ncr wrote:

with the correct lower leg/ankle technique they could be applying the same maximal torque here as they apply around 3 o'c.

This no way could be true.

You can apply more "stable", more "sinus-like" torque, but no way you can apply the same torque over the WHOLE circle :?

mac220

In a TT where seconds saved can be all important, riders are wasting 10 mins or more out of every hour as their legs idle through the upper dead spot sector around 12 o'c, when with the correct lower leg/ankle technique they could be applying the same maximal torque here as they apply around 3 o'c.

Ok, so can you explain how this is possible? Which muscles are they using to generate the maximal torque at 12/6? Can you also give an description of the technique that would allow you to achiev this?

Cheers,

Mark

ncr

indjke wrote:

ncr wrote:

with the correct lower leg/ankle technique they could be applying the same maximal torque here as they apply around 3 o'c.

This no way could be true.

You can apply more "stable", more "sinus-like" torque, but no way you can apply the same torque over the WHOLE circle :?

I never mentioned the WHOLE circle, it's possible for each lower leg and ankle to apply the same max torque between 11 and 4 o'c and with both legs this adds up to 300 degrees of the pedaling circle, for the remaining 60 deg normal 4-5 o'c torque is applied. It's done in much the same way as the lower arm and wrist applies max torque to a hand crank between 11 and 4 o'c, except the knees and elbows are in opposite positions. All that's involved is a simple knack.

Tom Dean

So - simply apply your hand crank technique to your cycling legs?..

ncr

Tom Dean wrote:

So - simply apply your hand crank technique to your cycling legs?..

Yes, but only between 11 and 5 o'c because unlike the arms, the pulling up muscles of the legs are useless for torque generation purposes.

Tom Dean

Alex_Simmons/RST

ncr wrote:

(Noel here Alex)

---

what took you so long?

Or has Frank got you wound up too much over at cyclingnews?

I think this is an FFZ.

mac220

Q. What makes it possible for a rider fitted with carbon/alloy pipes instead of lower legs to apply the same torque to his cranks as a rider with lower legs.

---

A. Those with the lower legs don't know how to use them.

---

 

In a TT where seconds saved can be all important, riders are wasting 10 mins or more out of every hour as their legs idle through the upper dead spot sector around 12 o'c, when with the correct lower leg/ankle technique they could be applying the same maximal torque here as they apply around 3 o'c.

 Yes, but only between 11 and 5 o'c because unlike the arms, the pulling up muscles of the legs are useless for torque generation purposes.

Ok, so you're saying that it's possible to apply full torque between 11 and 5

My question is still which muscles are giving this torque between 11-1

Thinking about it there are two main muscles groups that are working on the downward stroke of the pedal cycle

1. Rear hip muscles (gluteus Maximus etc)
2. The quadriceps on the front of the thighs 

If we think about their  function

- Rear hip muscles are extending the upper part of the leg (longest lever)
- Thighs are extending the lower part of the leg (second longest lever)

Calves are also involved minimally keeping the ankle in position but not really generating a great deal of the the force and have a very small range of motion which can only apply a relatively small force compared to the other two (shortest lever by a long way)

At 3 O'cl the rear hip and thigh muscles are both at their most powerful point of their movement and therefore creating significant force with maximum muscle fibre uptake 

When the crank is moving from 11-1 the upper thigh doesn't move very much if at all and the the hip is relatively closed meaning the amount of force which can be generated by the muscle is relatively small compared to the the force it can create at 3 O'cl. 

The movement must therefore be generated by the lower leg extending (front thigh muscles) and the calves

However the amount of force that can be generated here's is relatively small compared to at 3 O'cl. The total volume of muscle taking an active part in the movement is significantly smaller and those muscles which are being used are at an angle where the muscles can't create their maximum force. Additionally one of the  muscle groups which are being used, the calves, aren't designed as a force generating muscle but as a muscle which provides a spring type function. When running using the technique where you land on the ball of your foot (also known as the pose technique, most natural way to run even though few run that way) the calf is mainly used to absorb the downward force of your body as you land, it isn't used to generate either the force required or contribute a significant amount of leg extension required when running  and ultimately our lower body's are evolved to  walking/running/jumping

Humans have created new movements which we then adapt our bodies to such as cycling, However our body will function in the context of what they are evolved to do and our muscle groups won't change their capability as this is a physical thing driven by the size of the muscles, direction of joint movement and the length of the different levers with longer levers being designed to generate more force than shorter levers.

The comparison between a hand crank and the pedalling movement doesn't really work as the two limbs contain different joints structures and functions.

Legs have three joins which the primary movement I.e. the contraction of the largest muscle is opposite. If you make a simple drawing of the leg which looks like a zig zag with four sections including the back which is basically like this. \/\/   In this very simple diagram the furthest left slash signifies the back (which the rear hip muscles attack to) next the thigh, then the lower leg and finally the foot. This type of joint is perfect for generating force through extension I.e. the opening of each joint 

The arm on the other hand is very different also three joints however the wrist and elbow joints both contract in the same direction and the shoulder joint is multi-directional with a very wide range of movement. The wrist muscles are designed to create a grip and stabilise the wrist, with the elbow  generating its primary force by contracting towards the shoulder. This is a very different lever configuration to the leg, designed to perform a very different function. The arms strongest motion is pulling something towards you in a similar way to rowing, this is the exact opposite of the leg. 

It seems to me that the analogy of the hand crank doesn't work Because of the differences in the joint configuration and action the limb is designed to perform (the foot doesn't have an opposable thumb and therefore isn't designed to grip)

I think the assertion that people doesn't know how to use the lower limb implies we have a choice as to how it functions, which we don't and the way it functions is limited to the physiology leg. 

Looking at the different structures of these joints and the evolved uses of the two different limb types I don't see how your assertion can logically be the case

Sorry, this turned out to be a very long post

Regards,

Mark

ncr

mac220 wrote:

Q.

Ok, so you're saying that it's possible to apply full torque between 11 and 5

My question is still which muscles are giving this torque between 11-1

My only reason for using that hand crank comparison was because the objectives between 11-5 are the same. What I do is extend that 2-4 o'c main power sector to cover from 11-4 o'c, normal reduced torque is applied between 4-5 o'c. Between 11-1 o'c when initial acceleration is complete, you are applying a forward force to a fast forward moving crank and that makes it much easier. I know little about muscles and how they work, I simple use them for best results. This forward torque between 11-1 o'c is generated in exactly the same way as indoor Tug o'war men generate the power with their lower body and only a fraction of this possible power is required for max torque through 12 o'c. Alternate use of the arms supplies the additional necessary resistance and this is made possible by the use of Scott Rake clip-on aero bars.

dw300

WTF

mac220

Ok, so between 11-1 the increased force to create the torque is generated by the extension of the lower leg as I described, your bracing yourself against the tri-bars to get a restance for the force. Therefore the volume of muscles that can be used to generate this force is relatively small. In fact thinking about it between 11-12 the calf  can only be used as the crank is moving up if you change the angle of the foot so the ankle joint and therefore foot is pointing up as far as possible. The joint will be at a angle where only a small amount of the muscles fibres can be used. Therefore it's all about the lower leg extension and a force produced by the front thigh muscles. Which again is much smaller than the total volume of muscles used at 3 O'clock

If the technique requires pullIng and pushing with the upper then your upper body will be moving even if it is small amounts. This movement will reduce the amount of laminar air flow and increase wind resistance. When time trialling it's all about aerodynamics. If this pedal technique reduces aerodynamics by even a small amounts then any additional power output by the legs will be eaten up by the increased wind resistance. The thing is this is so easily done and keeping as still upper body is fundamentally important for minimal drag.

Your opening pint was that someone who does t improve their pedal stroke is wasting as much as 10 minutes in 60 when time trialling and that time trialing is all about those small differences that give you those few seconds. In a choice between:

- increasing drag as a result of body movement & marginal increase in pedal power (if Indeed the pedal technique you describe gives you this which I'm relatively certain increase is very minimal)
- lower drag slightly lower power

Then I'd go for reduced drag every time as wind resistance is the main limiting factor when cycling and the relationship between force required to move through the air versus speed is not linear, in fact far from it in simple terms drag is proportional to the square of the speed. Therefore the power required to increase speed is significant, increasing aerodynamic drag is bad news when time trailing. 

I remember Greg lemond saying that after the 89 TDF they did some tests in an air tunnel and found that in the final time trial the aero helmet he wore actually slows him down as he spent quite a lot of time looking down which caused the tip of the rear of the helmet to stick straight up into the air and if he hadn't worn it he would have beaten fignon by a couple more seconds. When you move your body from Side to side you increase the frontal area which is the key component to drag other that speed. You only need very small changes to make a measurable difference. which is why when you look at Bradley Wiggins when he's riding a tt his upper body is very still.

I don't have the actual figures but I'm relatively sure that overalls using the technique you describe will result in an overall lower speed. The only way to find out would be to go in a wind tunnel and get he numbers for this. 

My other thought is that  in learning the technique to do this actually generates a high force which translates into a higher torque and therefore a higher power per pedal stroke is the force you are putting on your knee joints. The knee isn't really evolved to apply high levels of force in that way. You would have to have a bike position and pedal cleat setup which was highly specific to your leg joints. Any rotation in the hips could start to put increased strain on your knee joints and with the extension between 11-1 this could easily cause ware on your knee joints.

My final thought would be I don't see this technique being used either on the track or by top tt'ers therefore this leads me to one of two conclusions:

1. The brightest minds in sport science haven't discovered it
2. It doesn't provide an overall improvement when taking into account factors such as increased stress to joints and aerodynamics

I have to say I'm going  for option '1'

But of course everyone is free to make their own choice and it wouldn't criticise anyone for doing that.

Regards,

Mark

ncr

mac220 wrote:

My final thought would be I don't see this technique being used either on the track or by top tt'ers therefore this leads me to one of two conclusions:

1. The brightest minds in sport science haven't discovered it
2. It doesn't provide an overall improvement when taking into account factors such as increased stress to joints and aerodynamics

I have to say I'm going  for option '1'

But of course everyone is free to make their own choice and it wouldn't criticise anyone for doing that.

Thanks for your honest and understandable reply. I wonder how your reply to Dick Fosbury would have read if he had posted a brief description of his new high jump technique. If the brightest minds in cycling's science dept. did not have the brains to realize the importance of an aerodynamic hand/arm position in time trials how could you expect them to discover the intricate biomechanics of the perfect pedaling technique. You say you don't see this technique being used by top tt'ers, well you can see the man who is still regarded as the world's greatest ever tt'er (J Anquetil) using it in both road and track events if you take a look at footage of his pedaling on video. Take special note, there is no dead spot sector in his pedaling, it is continuous torque application. But his unaero shoulder width bars forced him to use a more awkward double handed resistance technique instead of the more suitable and more beneficial alternate handed method made possible by aero bars. As for the medical aspect, by extending the peak torque application sector from 30 to 120 deg., knee stress is greatly reduced, unlike irregular chainrings which force a rider to put even greater stress on the knees in this confined 30 deg. sector. By transferring all the stressful workload from the lower back to the hips, the root cause of genuine cycling (pedaling) related lower back pain is eliminated. PS The combination of both arms and legs (what you call pushing and shoving) in this technique is very discreet and undetectable by an observer

rollemynot

dw300 wrote:

WTF

Ditto

Alex_Simmons/RST

Rollemynot wrote:

dw300 wrote:

WTF

Ditto

C'mon guys, play ball, this could be epic.

ric/rstsport

Noel! Noel! Noel! Go Noel!

I have missed you so much. Please someone invite Frank and Warren. That'd be epic


Ric