Cadence training and building stamina

dudge

Hi all
Would really love some advice as to how to improve/ or know where I am in the scheme of things etc. So my biog..45 years old..been pretty active all my life..was heavily into body building in my early 20's and wished I'd done more cardio. Currently weigh 99kg looking to get down to 94-95 but have hit a plateau. Now play 2 hours 5 a side on a Mon with 20-40 year olds..most town A-team players and ex semi pro guys..and ride road 1-2 times a week generally on my own but more around the 20 mile mark at 17-20mph average with little climbing. I started on MTB which I still love and about 2 years ago I bought a roady to see me through the winter months.

I really enjoy road riding and want to improve my stamina and get help with climbing..as you can imagine my achilles heel.I am not a big out of the seat kind of bloke and prefer to spin on climbs. I recently bought a flightdeck computer and it threw up the cadence for the first time which I found interesting. I run a double 53/39 with a 11-28 and find I struggle to keep up a decent cadence up steep stuff...say 10% plus..

So an idea of my ride today. I did 35 miles in 1 hr 50 trying to keep my cadence around 75 or higher...Max out at 36 mph but struggled on some of the smaller climbs...2 cat5, to get my cadence over 60..the last 5 miles was into the teeth of the wind (about 10mph and gusting) and I was struggling to get along at 14-15mph...with no wind I usually tock along on the flat at about 18-20 ish.

So a few questions.....
Should I stop worrying about time and speed and up my cadence in smaller gears to try and help stamina or is a cadence around 75 ok?
I know losing weight is the simplest thing to help climbing but should I chuck the 39 in favour of a 36 while this heavy or do you think I should go even smaller?
When climbing really steep...I think blowing stone hill near Uffington goes to 12-13%plus is it a case of just mashing it out of the saddle or do I need to find a gearing that will allow me to spin up it at say 75rpm?
Is cadence really important to help with distance or is it just a case of pounding the miles?
Would it benefit me to get together and ride in a pack to help increase speed and distance?

I am not looking to get into racing but I am quite competitive with myself and enjoy pushing myself. I think in the short term I would like to get my distance out to 60 miles plus, my current average is about 30miles but I am returning knackered and I still haven't found a saddle I am happy with over this distance, and then hopefully get a 100 miler under my belt next year.
I have done some climbs in the Alps but on MTB and with a triple (which I don't want on my road bike) and would love to get back out there to do some on the roady. I know most of the cols around our village in France so know what I am in for when we go back out there. One of them tops out at 17% which I did on the MTB....not looking forward to that one again... :shock:

Answers to the questions or any advice to help me progress or let me know I am on the right track would be fantastic.Thanks.

Eyorerox

If you want to go to the Alps then investing in a compact chainset would be worthwhile. You cant put a smaller chainring than 39 on your existing crankset.
Most people would say you should increase your cadence 90ish seems to be the favorite number quoted.
clearly dropping weight will help the most
as you are new to road riding, just ride a lot before you spend too much money.

dudge

Thanks. Why can't I change to a 36? I thought a lot of companies are now doing a 53/36 as a mid compact kind of thing. I run Ultegra sl crank and fd. Cheers

sungod

a standard double crankset will be 130bcd mounting, you can't fit a 36t ring on 130bcd, a compact crankset is 110bcd allowing smaller rings

too much grinding up hills at low cadence isn't great for the knees, so if you *really* struggle it might be worth looking for a compact crankset, but it sounds like you just need more training


everyone is different, overall the benefit of higher cadence is that you should be able to sustain higher power for longer - for instance if i'm going uphill at 90-100, my power output is higher and i can hold it much longer than if i go up the same hill in a higher gear at 70-80 (but if the hill is too steep then i run out of gears and do it in diesel mode!)

climbing out of the saddle takes a bit more energy and maybe is more suited to shorter riders, mostly it's better to stay seated and reserve it for the really tough bits or for a bit of variety on a long drag

it takes training/practice to develop higher cadence, try consistently riding at least one gear lower than you typically do, it may feel odd at first but you get used to it and over time you'll develop leg speed so that it becomes natural

higher cadence places more load on heart and lungs, but less on the legs - which is why it's often beneficial, as legs usually fatigue faster and take longer to recover

to develop stamina, long steady rides are good, but a couple of times a week, also do some short intervals at the highest cadence you can manage, don't just be spinning madly with no resistance, there should be real effort going into it, a gradual hill is a good place, ensure you are well warmed up first

dudge

Cheers..more great advice thanks.

Alex_Simmons/RST

dudge wrote:

Thanks. Why can't I change to a 36? I thought a lot of companies are now doing a 53/36 as a mid compact kind of thing. I run Ultegra sl crank and fd. Cheers

Apart from the standard 130 bcd being too large to enable a 36T chainring, you'd also need a long cage rear derailleur to handle such large difference in chain take up caused by chainring size combination such as that.

edit - maybe not the long cage - I thought it said 56/36, which would be a bit unusual!

cyco2

In my experience it's difficult to get enough time on climbs to make a significant improvement. However, if you were to simulate the resistance, time and cadence on a trainer this Autumn you could make the improvements you're looking for.
Also, get the weight down by removing the rubbish you eat to get another boost.

bahzob

Three things

- 90+ kg is a lot of weight to drag up a hill. You don't say how tall you are. Whatever, you should be aiming for a BMI of less than 25. This should be first priority

- Gearing: Key to mountain climbing is establishing a steady rhythm from bottom to top. Simple rule of thumb is that you should always have a gear that allows you to climb seated at more than 60rpm. If you cant maintain this cadence fit more gears. If that means a triple then fit one, I use one and am pretty sure I've climbed more mountains than most here.

- Training. It's different for hills here compared to mountains in Europe.
-- Here all our climbs are short and sharp so best training is short (3-5 min) intervals as hard as possible and still be able to do 3-6 reps. Sort of circular because in practice simplest way to do this is do repeats up a hill.
-- Mountains are different. They require long steady effort. Best training for this are long intervals like 2x20mins and/or do some 10-50 mile time trials. Paradoxically best way to do these in UK is on a flat course as you need to keep going non-stop. Alternatively a turbo is good, especially if you can set it up to simulate the incline.

dudge

tell me about it..99 kg is a lot of weight to pull anywhere! I have a very good diet and don't over eat/drink. I am just over 5'10 and more Rugby player than couch potato...just! 35"waist..43" chest...15" biceps ..24"thighs ...I am now going to stop with the dimensions..lol..Just to give you an idea...Not sure on current Body fat percentage...One of my big problems is an intolerance to starchy carbs..bread/pasta and potatoes...I really can't go near them as they make me feel quite ill and bloated..so I mainly eat a sort of Atkins based diet. I am definitely carrying extra fat at the moment but the cycling is helping to shift it...Despite eating in an Atkins style I try to avoid fatty foods as much as possible..Love Chicken and Salmon for instance. I would dearly love to get back into the fourteen stone range but that would put me as light as I was when I was 20 and about the height of my body building and is definitely a more long term goal. I think I am definitely heading in the right direction..I just need some tips to drag my cycling distance out so I can burn off more fat. As i understand it BMI is a very subjective thing as it is based on weight and height to give you an idea of your overall well being but doesn't take into account BF% or muscle mass as far as I am aware? Isn't that right?

I looked into the Chainring sizes and now totally understand about chain ring sizes etc...I am fairly clued up as I have built a couple of MTB's and my road bike, just didn't realise that the BCD was different on compact cranks. I think I am going to have to go out on the bike and see if I can lift my cadence and see what gear I can push at say 90rpm and then work out where I need to be at with my gearing overall. I don't have the money at the moment to go to compact or triple..especially triple as I would have to change cranks/FD and shifter...so thats not in the financial equation.

I might get a 38t, I know its not a lot of difference but it might just give me that extra bit on the climbs and it is pretty cost effective. I don't want to go bigger on the cassette..I used to have a 12-25 and loved the close ratio on the flats/small climbs and have just gone to 11-28...and that is about where I would like to be so I think I will work more on the physical side of things.

Really appreciate your help so far. Its all good stuff and very interesting. Thanks.

dudge

So i took the bike to footy tonight with the computer to see what 90 rpm feels like....you have to be kidding....either my cadence is way out on my flightdeck or that is goingg to be hard for me to achieve..it was like running absolutely flat out..Is that right? I mean like proper sprinting. It is only a mile and a touch uphill at about 4% and i could barely walk when i got there...lol...normally i breeze up that hill in a bigger gear. Is there some way to check the flightdeck is correct?

dw300

Lol .. Power = Torque x Revs

Some people prefer high revs, some have plenty of torque. You have a diesel engine.

When it comes to efficiency, higher revs uses less fuel in the long run, but if it's ok for Jens Voight to grind a huge gear, then you're in good company.

I average 90 rpm on a regular ride btw. I can get up to about 120rpm before i start to feel like it's time to change gear!

dudge

dw300 wrote:

Lol .. Power = Torque x Revs

Some people prefer high revs, some have plenty of torque. You have a diesel engine.

When it comes to efficiency, higher revs uses less fuel in the long run, but if it's ok for Jens Voight to grind a huge gear, then you're in good company.

I average 90 rpm on a regular ride btw. I can get up to about 120rpm before i start to feel like it's time to change gear!

Thats unreal..fair play to you.I have no idea how you manage that.Your legs must look like a bees wing at 120..lol I noticed on my ride the other day into the wind I was getting up to a comfortable 85 rpm but feeling like i should cog up but felt my rpm dropped too much so returned to that gear. So I think I'll try and aim for 85 rpm and see how I get on...definitely a diesel engine...you should hear the clatter as I ride along..definitely a problem with my big end and think I might need a bigger turbo..haha

trickydisco

dudge wrote:

Thats unreal..fair play to you.I have no idea how you manage that.Your legs must look like a bees wing at 120..lol I noticed on my ride the other day into the wind I was getting up to a comfortable 85 rpm but feeling like i should cog up but felt my rpm dropped too much so returned to that gear.

#

try riding a fixie.. you'll be up to 200 - 220 in no time

I've hit 230 once by taking my chain off on the fixie attached to some rollers.. that was fast

dudge

trickydisco wrote:

dudge wrote:

Thats unreal..fair play to you.I have no idea how you manage that.Your legs must look like a bees wing at 120..lol I noticed on my ride the other day into the wind I was getting up to a comfortable 85 rpm but feeling like i should cog up but felt my rpm dropped too much so returned to that gear.

#

try riding a fixie.. you'll be up to 200 - 220 in no time

I've hit 230 once by taking my chain off on the fixie attached to some rollers.. that was fast

good grief

trickydisco

This is fast cadence

and me hitting around 215

dudge

lol....good vids.

ut_och_cykla

Nice vids - but aword of warning - on the instructions of a paid coach I spent all winter 'working on my cadence' and got much better at twirling a higher cadence. Sadly come the spring I discovered that I was slower and it took me all summer (and nearly failing the quebrantaheusos Spanish sportive) to get back to my former(rather weedy) me. HAving a cadence 'reportoire' is probably useful, focusing on cadence alone is probably not. Each to their own.

trickydisco

Yea. i wouldn't want to ever 'work on my cadence' I think having a high cadence is a neuro-muscular characteristic.

Not blowing my own trumpet but to put it in context when i had a go at that rollapaluza thing for the first time i'd only ever ridden mountain bikes (not really synonymous with high cadences) and didn't even own a road bike. Despite this i racked out over 210 rpm. I then got into road cycling massively, did lots of training and also some road racing. Then did another rollapaluza competition and i was no better/faster despite being fitter.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Peak cadences of ~200rpm are fairly common in unloaded or very low load spin tests and tells us very little about capability.

trickydisco

I've always wondered why some people can and can't reach high cadences.. Why do you think that is?

E.g I've seen fixie riders do poorly at rollapaluza (where the aim is to reach high cadences and sustain for 500m) , I've seen elite sprinters not do very well, I've seen mountain bikers do very well.

'Ive seen it in my club as well. some guys can only reach about 160 before spinning out/bouncing whereas only 2 or 3 can reach 200-210


just curious

Peak cadences of ~200rpm are fairly common in unloaded or very low load spin tests and tells us very little about capability.

Not in rollapaluza competitions i've been to. There's only a handful that average over 200rpm for 500m. That shows they have capability.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Unloaded cadence is pretty useless as an indicator of much. Tell me how much power they can sustain for durations from 5 to 30 seconds, that's far more telling.

trickydisco

Useless as what? so are you saying the guys averaging over 200 for 500m at these roller racing gigs are putting out more power from 5 - 25 seconds

They do measure power at some events



Guy who put out the most power came 9th? (although doesn't say peak or average. )

Unloaded cadence is pretty useless as an indicator of much.

I'm pretty sure the ability to pedal quickly has some bearing on capability :?

Alex_Simmons/RST

trickydisco wrote:

I'm pretty sure the ability to pedal quickly has some bearing on capability :?

Only if you can do so under load.

It's the same at the other end of the spectrum, just because you can apply really high forces with your legs (e.g. leg squat) doesn't mean you can apply higher forces at speed.

What matters is the force and speed (i.e. power).