Traffic light fury

skinnypunter

I have started cycling to London after a 15 year break. I'm shocked by the number of cyclists who treat traffic lights as optional.

What's the mindset here? I'm assuming that at least some of them are drivers as well, and presumably don't jump red lights in their cars, and are probably relatively law-abiding in their own little ways.

I made the mistake of asking one guy why he did it - ironically he had jumped one light but I caught him at the next - and got a mouthful of abuse. I'd asked politely why he thought it was Ok.

Is this normal? Am i to expect all drivers to treat me with the contempt that the twunt above and his kin generate?

rolf_f

You've made 105 posts and been on the forum since 2007 and you've never seen a red light jumping thread? Ooooohh, kay!

skinnypunter

Rolf F wrote:

You've made 105 posts and been on the forum since 2007 and you've never seen a red light jumping thread? Ooooohh, kay!

Like I said, I haven't been commuting for a while...

bails87

I saw a dozen drivers on the phone today.

What's the mindset here? I'm assuming that at least some of them know it's illegal and dangerous, and are probably relatively law-abiding in their own little ways.

I made the mistake of asking one woman to put her phone down and got a mouthful of abuse. I'd politely made the 'phone down' gesture at one of them and she went nuts, beeping her horn, swearing and screaming at me. I'm not sure what she was saying because her windows were shut :roll:

Is this normal? Am i to expect all drivers to treat me with the contempt that the twunt above and her kin display?


Some people are plebs. Ever told a driver that they're speeding, and asked them why they think it's ok? Or called someone up on a bad overtake? Plenty get angry too. You met a d!ck, unfortunately.

dave_oc

Not a particularly helpful reply there bails87 but it does show the typical mentality of the type of cyclists who jump red lights. They seem to think that road laws don't apply to them and then blame drivers whenever things go wrong. Strangely, they're often the ones covered in bike lights with a camera strapped to their helmet.

Skinnypunter - I've been cycling in London for the last year or so having commuted elsewhere for years and I'm shocked at the proportion of cyclists who jump red lights here. I guess its the case that when a few start doing it, others follow. However, probably not worth getting too bothered about or it will drive you mad! Just ignore them and enjoy your commute to work.

rolf_f

Oddly enough, I may have been a near victim of the consequences of RLJ this morning. I was on form for a record time into the office and about 500 yards from the end of the ride. I took off from pole at a light and hared down the road to catch the next lights before they changed (which is just about possible with about a 5 second margin - it''s a very short green sequence on that one).

Anyway, I approach the junction wary about the cars on the otherside of the junction crossing my path to the left. As I get half way across, some blind nobhead decides to follow the cars that have already crossed bringing me up to a sudden halt. Now, he was a nob - that is a fact. He turned right across my path - I was visible and had priority. On his side there is a right filter green but that would have been off by then. Thing is, I'm not sure from his expression that he thought I was in the wrong. I suspect he thought that because I was cycling, that I'd jumped a red and shouldn't have been there.

I may be wrong - he might just have been looking a bit shocked rather than annoyed but it is another reason why RLJers can cause all of us harm - ie assuming we shouldn't be there even when we should.

BigJimmyB

I think Bails has it nailed on. There are d1ckheads everywhere, using every mode of transport.

Some a$$hole tried to push his way past me on a path that was 1 person wide last night - so even walkers can be twunts.

Ride/Drive/Walk your way, let the plebs get on with it.

As an example, I used to get agged about tailgaters on the road, now I pull over and let them go annoy someone else....

tonye_n

BigJimmyB wrote:

........................now I pull over and let them go annoy someone else....

Exactly my new approach as well.
I do it when cycling, and on the few occasions when it's my turn to taxi the kids.
I just take evasive action and let the idiots go hassle someone else.
Cycling is meant to assist with offloading/avoiding stress.....

bails87

dave_oc wrote:

Not a particularly helpful reply there bails87

Really? Because you follow it with

probably not worth getting too bothered about or it will drive you mad! Just ignore them and enjoy your commute to work.

Which is what I was getting at.

but it does show the typical mentality of the type of cyclists who jump red lights. They seem to think that road laws don't apply to them and then blame drivers whenever things go wrong. Strangely, they're often the ones covered in bike lights with a camera strapped to their helmet.

What do you mean by 'it'? My reply/attitude, or my example of law breaking on the roads? Because if you meant me then I can assure you that I've only ever jumped 2 red lights, both were faulty (stuck on red) temporary lights on short road work sections on deserted country lanes. I waited for a few minutes at each and then tiptoed through. That's exactly the same number of lights I've jumped in my car, and for the same reason.

RLJers and pavement riders pee me right off, and I wish the police would take all lawbreaking on the roads more seriously. Like I said, the guy the OP met was a d1ck.

tonye_n

bails87 wrote:

dave_oc wrote:

Not a particularly helpful reply there bails87

Really? Because you follow it with

probably not worth getting too bothered about or it will drive you mad! Just ignore them and enjoy your commute to work.

Which is what I was getting at.

but it does show the typical mentality of the type of cyclists who jump red lights. They seem to think that road laws don't apply to them and then blame drivers whenever things go wrong. Strangely, they're often the ones covered in bike lights with a camera strapped to their helmet.

What do you mean by 'it'? My reply/attitude, or my example of law breaking on the roads? Because if you meant me then I can assure you that I've only ever jumped 2 red lights, both were faulty (stuck on red) temporary lights on short road work sections on deserted country lanes. I waited for a few minutes at each and then tiptoed through. That's exactly the same number of lights I've jumped in my car, and for the same reason.

RLJers and pavement riders pee me right off, and I wish the police would take all lawbreaking on the roads more seriously. Like I said, the guy the OP met was a d1ck.

I think he meant the attitude of your reply seemed to be overly sarcarstic and a bit condescending in tone..... At least in the first half your reply.
That was also how it seemed to me....

dave_oc

bails87 - my point was that many RLJers justify it by saying most drivers break the law by speeding/using mobiles etc so why shouldn't they. I felt this was the argument you were giving but if not then I misunderstood - sorry for that.

bails87

dave_oc wrote:

bails87 - my point was that many RLJers justify it by saying most drivers break the law by speeding/using mobiles etc so why shouldn't they. I felt this was the argument you were giving but if not then I misunderstood - sorry for that.

Sorry, no.

No offence taken (or meant) btw, I was just pointing out that plenty of other people break the law, it's annoying, they're idiots but it's not our job as the 'good guys' to enforce the law. You can try but you'll probably be ignored/abused, if they're enough of a tw@ to be sailing through red lights, then they're probably enough of a tw@ to be rude/aggressive wwhen they're called up on it. It's not representative of all cyclists.

Daz555

skinnypunter wrote:

What's the mindset here? I'm assuming that at least some of them are drivers as well, and presumably don't jump red lights in their cars, and are probably relatively law-abiding in their own little ways.

It's just normal human behaviour to ignore rules and regulations in an inconsistent and entirely arbitrary fashion.

Drivers speed, do u-turns in dodgy places, park "just for a second" on double yellows, use their phones, forget to tax their car, let the MOT run out for a couple of weeks, let their tyres dip a bit below the wear markers. Bikers wear illegally tinted visors, fit illegal number plates etc. The list goes on. Bring lorry drivers and white van man into the equation and the list grows and grows!

All groups of road users are the same - why would cyclists be any different?

Headhuunter

Exactly. I never understand this emphasis on cyclists from all other road users, even other cyclists, to be whiter than white and holier than the holiest holy! Motorists who regularly break the law are far more a threat to general safety than cyclists!

Al Downie

It often happens just around the corner form my work, that a pedestrian will push the button on a crossing to call the red light, but then crosses the road without waiting. So when the red light finally does come on, all traffic stops to wait for nobody to cross the road. In those circumstances I normally slow down and make a gesture of looking around me for a pedestrian, and then proceed through the crossing even if the light is still red (I would never do this in my car). I also mount the pavement sometimes to shortcut a junction where I'm turning left and the lights take ages *and* go through a phase where no other traffic can be entering the lane I want to use - there should be a filter in that situation, but there isn't.

But generally I take a really dim view of cyclists who race along pavements without any consideration, race through pedestrian crossings while folk are trying to cross, race through red lights in any circumstances. There's a lot of that in Cambridge. I was once on a pedestrian crossing behind a lady who took a swipe with her umbrella at a cyclist who flew past her, walkman on, no-handed. She missed him by miles, but he got such a fright he lost his balance and crashed into the back of a parked van. Best possible outcome, I thought!

rolf_f

Al Downie wrote:

So when the red light finally does come on, all traffic stops to wait for nobody to cross the road. In those circumstances I normally slow down and make a gesture of looking around me for a pedestrian, and then proceed through the crossing even if the light is still red (I would never do this in my car). I also mount the pavement sometimes to shortcut a junction where I'm turning left and the lights take ages *and* go through a phase where no other traffic can be entering the lane I want to use

So why would you stop at the pedestrian crossing when you are in your car but not when you are on your bike? You are subject to just the same rules and the offence is the same whether on bike or in car.

As for the left turn - that's fine as long as you get off your bike and walk round. Occasionally I do this on one junction which is followed by a traffic light that, if I just miss the green at the first junction, will be on green if I walk round the corner but red if I wait for the lights to change.

Picking and choosing which laws to break based on your mode of transport just ain't cool

Al Downie

Rolf F wrote:

So why would you stop at the pedestrian crossing when you are in your car but not when you are on your bike?

I guess it just feels like the common-sense thing to do - if the crossing is empty, the road is clear and it's safe to proceed without inconveniencing anyone, then I'll (sometimes) do so on my bike. But in the car, common sense doesn't apply - rules is rules. I guess when I'm on my bike I feel more like a 'person' than a motorist.

For some reason I'm reminded of a clip on telly, filmed from the front-facing camera in a police car. They were following a driver who was doing 50-ish mph in the outside lane of the motorway, causing a huge tailback. Beside that car, in the middle lane and travelling at the same speed, was a motorcycle, its rider gesturing to the police about the incompetence and inconsideration of the idiot in the slow car and the wrong lane. There was a protracted non-verbal exchange - it was clear that the rider wanted to proceed ahead, but the Policeman in the car waved his warning finger many times and could be heard by the camera saying: "Don't you do it son... don't you do it...". Eventually, of course, the motorcyclist lost his patience and accelerated away from the hold-up, into the wide, empty road ahead. And, of course, the Police put on their sirens and flashing lights and threw the book at him for undertaking. The idiot in the slow car wasn't touched. But rules is rules, y'know?

bails87

But the driver in the outside lane was breaking the rules.

cookdn

bails87 wrote:

But the driver in the outside lane was breaking the rules.

Yep, Highwaycode - Motorways, rule 264:

"[....]Slow-moving or speed-restricted vehicles should always remain in the left-hand lane of the carriageway unless overtaking.[....]"

The Plod was obviously waiting for the easier, more interesting catch :roll:. Would have liked to have seen the conversation between the motorcyclist and the police officer. Surely they would not have been harsh enough to impose a penalty?

rule 268:

"Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake.[....]"

I wonder how the Police safely manoeuvred past the slow moving vehicle?

Best regards
David

Al Downie

cookdn wrote:

The Plod was obviously waiting for the easier, more interesting catch

Exactly. I'm sure it was much more fun for them to confront the frustrated motorcyclist than to spend half an hour booking the hapless incompetent in the slow car.

I think that in cars, both Police and motorists have had the 'rules is rules' mentality hammered into them so hard, for so long, that common sense seems to have been abandoned completely. Drivers MUST BE PUNISHED, but cyclists are a waste of Police time.

It also occurred to me that if the Police were ever to start actually trying to do something about cyclists on pavements (for example), they'd have to be prepared to apply the law equally to reckless couriers/chavs and to 4yr-old kids with stabilisers. In my opinion, it's more sensible to promote common sense and consideration in the cycling community, than strive for the 'rules is rules' mentality that exists among motorists.

bails87

Al Downie wrote:

I think that in cars, both Police and motorists have had the 'rules is rules' mentality hammered into them so hard, for so long,

You mean the "rules is rules" mentality that led to government ministers saying "loads of people routinely ignore the speed limit, lets 'bring them back onto the right side of the law' by raising the speed limit to match the speed they drive at"?

There's very much a "rules is not rules because I'm a safe driver so I can do 100mph down the M25". Or "rules is not rules because I'm very important so I'm allowed to send a text while negotiating a roundabout" culture, IMO.

Daz555

With the red light thing - I'd like to see a trial of the same system employed in many US states where you can turn left (right in their case) even when the lights are red.

dav1

I see RLJers all the time and they really wind me up!

What bugs me most is that when I tell people I am a cyclist and a cycle commuter I often get a mouthful about cyclists being a menace because they ALL ignore the rules of the road.
This really does make my blood boil. I try to ride considerately with mutual respect for other road users (I'm not going to claim to be the model cyclist, I make mistakes and bad calls from time to time like everyone else). Thing is the idea that I (and most other cyclists) actually obey red lights, keep off the footpath, use lights and so on is an alien concept to a lot of people because of these inconsiderate, arrogant and selfish people that think the rules of the road are optional.

</rant>

monkeydan

I have managed to block out the frustration I feel at cyclists RLJing and now exist in my own little zen bubble.
Except if it endangers me, in which case I become incredibly irate and abusive (still working on that zen thing evidently...)

Quite honestly, on my route to and from work anyway, the majority of cyclists RLJ and a good number cycle on the pavement in order to undertake queues of traffic.

Al Downie

Quick scenario then - it's 3am and you're on your way home from somewhere, and you come across a pedestrian crossing which has turned red, despite the pedestrian having already crossed the road because there's not a single car in sight, anywhere. No cars on the road, no pedestrians waiting to cross, dead as night - only you, waiting for a red light to change. Are you really so virtuous that you wouldn't have a quick look around and then proceed if there was nobody there to see you?

Manc33

I read somewhere "law abiding cyclists" (ones who never jump a red light) are at a higher risk of having an accident - especially the usual accident - HGV turning left. Well thats no accident, its usually a fatality.

It depends if you are talking about actually jumping a red light (carrying on going when its just turned to red) or moving forwards just before the light goes green. The former is stupid but the latter could save your life if an HGV is not indicating. It doesn't even have to be a HGV, enough car drivers could see you but choose not to look and not indicate. Its rare a HGV won't be indicating left... but it happens.

Also read that you're probably safer without a helmet because cars are more cautious around cyclists who are not "protected".

Then again I think I read that last one in the Daily Mail, not that they are always wrong, but when they start calling cannabis "killer skunk" I have to wonder about the integrity of the rest of their stuff.

rolf_f

Al Downie wrote:

Are you really so virtuous that you wouldn't have a quick look around and then proceed if there was nobody there to see you?

Yes - of course. It's a red light. I wouldn't run it in my car so why would I do so if I'm on my bike. It's not as though it means I lose any meaningful amount of time. But yes, I would be sat there cursing my bad luck at losing 20 seconds out of my life because some idiot pressed the pelican crossing button at 3am.

It's not a question of virtuousness. You don't get virtue points for simply obeying the law.

Initialised

Stop blaming the user and start blaming the designs.

For those who get wound up by RLJers, consider the result of putting 20 small 100kg objects with typical speeds of 15mph directly in front of 10 large 1500kg objects that want to be moving at 30mph then telling them to all start at the same time. It's just silly to expect it to work.

Forward looking nations are trialling red = giveway for cyclists. Seems like a good idea and probably every bike rider has RLJ'd at least once.

Traffic lights should be a last resort and a more common sense approach should be encouraged by road design (fewer markings, less sign-age, more self reliance) and law (stiffer penalties for causing harm) encouraging a more relaxed and engaged attitude to be adopted by all road users rather than following blunt rules that promote abuse, frustration and mutual aggression.

I don't routinely RLJ but think I should be allowed to use my judgement rather than be dictated to by lazy road design.

cookeeemonster

Initialised wrote:

Stop blaming the user and start blaming the designs.

For those who get wound up by RLJers, consider the result of putting 20 small 100kg objects with typical speeds of 15mph directly in front of 10 large 1500kg objects that want to be moving at 30mph then telling them to all start at the same time. It's just silly to expect it to work.

Forward looking nations are trialling red = giveway for cyclists. Seems like a good idea and probably every bike rider has RLJ'd at least once.

Traffic lights should be a last resort and a more common sense approach should be encouraged by road design (fewer markings, less sign-age, more self reliance) and law (stiffer penalties for causing harm) encouraging a more relaxed and engaged attitude to be adopted by all road users rather than following blunt rules that promote abuse, frustration and mutual aggression.

I don't routinely RLJ but think I should be allowed to use my judgement rather than be dictated to by lazy road design.

Forget what happens in other countries and what would be ideal here - get real and live by the rules of the road. That doesn't mean you shouldn't campaign for better infrastructure btw.

I'm sorry but the arguments for running reds in 99% of the cases are just bulls*it. Just admit you wanna get somewhere faster and be done with it. Of the very rare cases where it is in your interest to jump a red light I'd say get some cycle training and try a different route first. Sorry but RLJ's pee me off and are incredibly selfish in my opinion (as are speeding cars drivers and so on). The current biggest argument used against cyclists in order to stop us getting better infrastructure is we're all a bunch of law breaking cowboys who jump red lights and run over old ladies on the pavement for fun - it's the minority who do this - yet we all suffer.

I travel from one side of london to the other and i'm sorry, although I'm sure they do exist i'm yet to come across a junction that would be safer for me to jump a red light on - 100% of the cyclists I see RLJing do it because it's easier and quicker for them, no other reason.

Possibly hypocritically I should point out I've got nothing against going over the white line so cars/lorries can see you better - in many cases in london you have no other choice as the ASL is occupied by cars/motorbikes...

Big_Paul

It's not so much RLJs get on my wick, it's the ones who, when faced with a RL at a junction and a green man for pedestrians, take to the pedestrian crossing and get through that way, it's admittedly not harmful if there's nobody on the crossing, but I've seen a few folk walking across nearly being skittled by cyclists.

it grinds my gears and I know a few folk who walk to work that have a poor opinion of cyclists because of that one particular junction.

JamesB5446

Traffic lights are bullshit.

Roundabouts let people make their own decisions, traffic lights make you do what a machine tells you.