Cavendish should go!

phreak

LeicesterLad wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Wouldn't it be funny if Sky won no GTs next year. I wouldn't be upset.

Go Cav. A sprinter of that calibre, even a sit-in one, needs a team dedicated to him.

To be honest I think thats the more likely scenario. I can't see Sky winning any, let alone all 3. The Tour will be a whole different ball game next year if the rumoured course lives up to the hype and with a fully fit A. Schleck and Contador, Froome et al will be struggling to even get a look in.

Not so sure. Firstly Schleck has to be a doubt because a) his time trialling stinks, so he'll lose minutes to Froome in those, and b) we don't know yet how he'll react to Frank getting banned.

Secondly it's hard to believe Contador will return as strong as he was before his ban. Most evidence suggests that riders returning from a ban aren't as good as they were before. The only exceptions were riders that were soon kicked out again.

Finally the whole premise of Sky's approach was that if they maintain their power output all the way up the climb, then it isn't possible for any clean rider to put major time into them. If that's still true then it must surely apply to Schleck and Contador as well as it does anyone.

rick_chasey

phreak wrote:

Finally the whole premise of Sky's approach was that if they maintain their power output all the way up the climb, then it isn't possible for any clean rider to put major time into them..

I didn't like that comment at all when they said it.

Might as well say "anyone who beats us is cheating".

LeicesterLad

Rick Chasey wrote:

phreak wrote:

Finally the whole premise of Sky's approach was that if they maintain their power output all the way up the climb, then it isn't possible for any clean rider to put major time into them..

I didn't like that comment at all when they said it.

Might as well say "anyone who beats us is cheating".

Its a sh*t comment and doesn't take into account varying gradients, type of climb etc surely? If it was as simple as that then they are basically saying we are the best riders, we are at maximum possible power output that anybody in the world can achieve all at the same time, every time?

squired

phreak wrote:

Secondly it's hard to believe Contador will return as strong as he was before his ban. Most evidence suggests that riders returning from a ban aren't as good as they were before. The only exceptions were riders that were soon kicked out again.

That is true, but normally after someone has been banned from competition for 2 years. Contador was riding for most of his "ban".

phreak

squired wrote:

phreak wrote:

Secondly it's hard to believe Contador will return as strong as he was before his ban. Most evidence suggests that riders returning from a ban aren't as good as they were before. The only exceptions were riders that were soon kicked out again.

That is true, but normally after someone has been banned from competition for 2 years. Contador was riding for most of his "ban".

It was more that pre-ban they were helped, whereas post-ban they're riding more naturally. Maybe.

I didn't like that comment at all when they said it.

Might as well say "anyone who beats us is cheating".

I think it's more akin to saying, we know we can do x watts/kg, and history suggests that no clean rider has been able to beat that by a large margin. Not to say they can't be beaten, but they can't be beaten by the kind of margins we've seen in the past. Guess they reason thay they can cope with a few seconds here and there as they're very good in the time trial.

TheBigBean

phreak wrote:

Guess they reason thay they can cope with a few seconds here and there as they're very good in the time trial.

Why is that again? History shows that people who are very good at time trialing.....

milton50

We don't need it to be finalised to know what kind of parcours the 100th Tour is going to be like; it's going to have lots and lots of mountains. It really wouldn't surprise me if Wiggins focused on something other than the Tour next year. He's acheived his ultimate goal at 32 and I think he would be reasonably relaxed with turning his attention to something else. He doesn't have the ego that most other top cyclists have.

rick_chasey

Milton50 wrote:

He doesn't have the ego that most other top cyclists have.

milton50

You know its true.

Richmond Racer

Actually I dont think he does have a massive ego. I think he can be tricky, sometimes he says things that he probably shouldn't, but I dont think ego is an issue with him.

plectrum

Does anyone think Cavendish even with a full team will win the green jersey again? Multi disciplined riders seem far more suited to winning the green jersey. Going forward I see Sagan being more likely just as Hushovd was before. You just can't win these days unless either you are absolutely perfect sprinter and win every flat stage or you can win intermediates.

Far better to stay with Sky and win 3 or 4 stages per tour and ride two of the 3 tours. Also Mark is avidly anti-doping and most of the other teams are pure filth.

plectrum

Richmond Racer wrote:

Actually I dont think he does have a massive ego. I think he can be tricky, sometimes he says things that he probably shouldn't, but I dont think ego is an issue with him.

Wiggo has a far bigger ego.

Jez mon

I think Cav can edge Sagan in the green jersey competition, but it depends on the route and how successful his team are.

Having said that, Sagan completely owned the points comp this year!

phreak

You'd think Liquigas weren't offering any support to Nibali either the way some on here carry on. Stage wins are much more important than some mickey mouse jersey imo.

No_Ta_Doctor

phreak wrote:

,

I didn't like that comment at all when they said it.

Might as well say "anyone who beats us is cheating".

I think it's more akin to saying, we know we can do x watts/kg, and history suggests that no clean rider has been able to beat that by a large margin. Not to say they can't be beaten, but they can't be beaten by the kind of margins we've seen in the past. Guess they reason thay they can cope with a few seconds here and there as they're very good in the time trial.

I agree. Seems entirely reasonable to me. They know exactly what power they can ride at for a 30-40 minute climb, they know exactly how to ride a climb as fast as possible, they know they've got very good riders who have W/Kg output at the very top end of the spectrum. If they're in form and riding to plan then anyone getting away from them by any decent margin has either pushed himself well into the red - in which case they'll bring him back anyway - or has an extremely suspicious advantage somehow. They may lose a few seconds to an attack in the last few km, but that's about it.

It's worth remembering Wiggins' ride for the WC TT silver - he rode without a radio, because he knew what he could produce and how to produce it, no DS shouting in his earpiece could make him any faster. Same on the climbs - no point in chasing down attacks, his fastest route to the top is to ride it steady and he knows he can do that bloody quick. As far as I've seen it's an approach that works on anything less severe than Angliru (where he might have had the wrong gearing anyway), where the ramps are so insanely steep you can't produce a consistent power output over the course of the climb.

It's not new either - it's pretty much how Roche pulled Delgado back on La Plagne (though Roche obviously went well into the red at the end of the climb).

"Duelling" on mountains is pretty much a thing of the past, I think. You'll only see it when the top GC contenders don't have great TTing ability, or when they aren't clean. Modern cycling is going to be TTing mountains and attacking on descents.

inkyfingers

No tA Doctor wrote:

"Duelling" on mountains is pretty much a thing of the past, I think. You'll only see it when the top GC contenders don't have great TTing ability, or when they aren't clean. Modern cycling is going to be TTing mountains and attacking on descents.

Did you watch the Vuelta stage yesterday?

rick_chasey

inkyfingers wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

"Duelling" on mountains is pretty much a thing of the past, I think. You'll only see it when the top GC contenders don't have great TTing ability, or when they aren't clean. Modern cycling is going to be TTing mountains and attacking on descents.

Did you watch the Vuelta stage yesterday?

Or the 2010 or 2011 Tour?

MrTapir

Rick Chasey wrote:

inkyfingers wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

"Duelling" on mountains is pretty much a thing of the past, I think. You'll only see it when the top GC contenders don't have great TTing ability, or when they aren't clean. Modern cycling is going to be TTing mountains and attacking on descents.

Did you watch the Vuelta stage yesterday?

Or the 2010 or 2011 Tour?

Or the women's Olympic road race?

rick_chasey

MrTapir wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

inkyfingers wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

"Duelling" on mountains is pretty much a thing of the past, I think. You'll only see it when the top GC contenders don't have great TTing ability, or when they aren't clean. Modern cycling is going to be TTing mountains and attacking on descents.

Did you watch the Vuelta stage yesterday?

Or the 2010 or 2011 Tour?

Or the women's Olympic road race?

What mountain?

greasedscotsman

Rick Chasey wrote:

MrTapir wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

inkyfingers wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

"Duelling" on mountains is pretty much a thing of the past, I think. You'll only see it when the top GC contenders don't have great TTing ability, or when they aren't clean. Modern cycling is going to be TTing mountains and attacking on descents.

Did you watch the Vuelta stage yesterday?

Or the 2010 or 2011 Tour?

Or the women's Olympic road race?

What mountain?

Duh, Box Hill!

cal_stewart

The point ref Sagan I think is bang on. Cav with a full team behind him will still not beat Sagan to green. Sagan being in the tour means cav needs to change as a rider. Yes he is the best sprinter in the world but that's what the points jersey is.

Daz555

inkyfingers wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

"Duelling" on mountains is pretty much a thing of the past, I think. You'll only see it when the top GC contenders don't have great TTing ability, or when they aren't clean. Modern cycling is going to be TTing mountains and attacking on descents.

Did you watch the Vuelta stage yesterday?

I saw Bertie showboating, not attacking. Maybe he hasn't got the legs? Maybe the cheat is now clean?

phreak

Always worth remembering that Bertie actually came 4th yesterday, so lost time on his rivals rather than gained any.

Daz555

phreak wrote:

Always worth remembering that Bertie actually came 4th yesterday, so lost time on his rivals rather than gained any.

And I'd say he expended a fair bit more energy than Froome as well. Froome only sprinted once to close the gaps and that was when they neared the top and he knew he needed to be close or he'd never close it before the finish. Good riding from Froome. I reckon he'll have learned a lot about pacing from Wiggins in the Tour.

No_Ta_Doctor

Rick Chasey wrote:

inkyfingers wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

"Duelling" on mountains is pretty much a thing of the past, I think. You'll only see it when the top GC contenders don't have great TTing ability, or when they aren't clean. Modern cycling is going to be TTing mountains and attacking on descents.

Did you watch the Vuelta stage yesterday?

Or the 2010 or 2011 Tour?

I didn't get to watch yesterday's stage. Did a clean rider win it by a decent time gap by duelling on the climb?

2010 tour... did you not catch the bit about "or when they aren't clean"?

2011 tour - won by Evans - didn't he just slog his way up the climbs TT style, rather than trying to chase down every attack? Thought his big gutsy tour winning ride was when he pulled back a big gap pretty much by himself. Can't say I got to see a lot of it though.

To emphasise my point I give you:
2011 Vuelta. Won on Angliru, the climb least possible to TT effectively, and with the help of some time bonuses that exaggerate the effect of gapping someone (not saying they aren't fair, though I don't like them, just that they mean that letting an opponent gain a few seconds on a climb gives him a few more into the bargain)
2012 Giro. Drilled by Liquigas for much of the race, won by Hejsedal climbing at his own pace.
2012 Tour. Doesn't need comment.

Duelling only works if two riders are playing.

Deegs

If Cav moves to Omega won't he be stealing Greipel's thunder once again? LOL

rick_chasey

Deegs wrote:

If Cav moves to Omega won't he be stealing Greipel's thunder once again? LOL

Greipel is at Lotto.

LOL

greasedscotsman

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report- ... e-team-sky

So he's definately going then! Probably...

Turfle

I'd be very shocked if he stayed now. It would be very odd if Sky riders were forbidden from saying "he's staying".

It would be the best move for both parties imo. Got to assume he takes Eisel with him, and I'd guess that Dowsett will end up on the same team too.

RichN95.

I've started a poll on another thread so we can have 'I told you so' rights.