I've got a camera you tw*t

slowbike
slowbike Posts: 8,498
edited August 2012 in Commuting chat
Been skimming through a few youtube vids of cyclists - seem to be mostly commuters - having "altercations" with motorists ...

IMHO some are genuine motorists being tw*ts - but many seem to be caused by the cyclists own actions or intolerance ...

Now - before you all shout at me - I also often commute by bike - different types of roads to those in the vids though - I don't get the heavy traffic problems or loads of junctions ... and the only places I prefer to ride "primary" is where I'm riding at the vehicles speed limits ...

Riding Primary
I can see why it is sometimes a good idea to ride "primary" - although the idea of primary seems to vary from rider to rider - some appear to be in the middle of the road! The vids where the motorist has got pissed off with the cyclist often seem to be where the rider is in primary with no apparently good reason. Although there may be a traffic queue up ahead, this doesn't give the cyclist the right to hold the traffic back.

Intolerance
Cyclists intolerance seem to be where the vehicle is passing too close - this is subjective and usually difficult to judge from videos - but many seem to be "close" but not "too close" ...
In both situations the response from the cyclists is often verbally abusive - whilst I understand the frustration, the language is hardly going to encourage the wayward driver to be more considerate to cyclists ...

Then when we have the confrontations - that famous phrase seems to be used by the cyclist to settle the argument "I've got a camera you tw*t" ... like that settles everything ...

Really - I think we, as cyclists should show, by our actions and responses, more consideration to other road users. Let other users overtake you - even if you have to slowup for a sec (not during a strava segment obviously) and move out of primary more often ...
I don't know how you consider where you should position yourself, but one of the things I consider is "can I make it safe for the vehicle behind to overtake" - if the answer is yes then I'll try to do so. Not that I'm gods gift to considerate riding - I have altercations too ... because motorists don't always appreciate the reasons for the actions I take ... and I don't always appreciate their ability to react to them.

When you do get carved up (you will - we all do!) - try to be a little more polite in your response, it allows you to keep the moral highground if a confrontation emerges ... then any video footage will show cyclists in a better light - far better than the current crop of youtube vids anyway!
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Comments

  • gtvlusso
    gtvlusso Posts: 5,112
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1AE9mwEwM4
  • daviesee
    daviesee Posts: 6,386
    Slowbike wrote:
    I have altercations too ... because motorists don't always appreciate the reasons for the actions I take ... and I don't always appreciate their ability to react to them.
    That pretty much sums the situation up.
    A little consideration on both sides (but usually the drivers) could avoid most altercations.
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • jds_1981
    jds_1981 Posts: 1,858
    Yes, there are some videos where the cyclist is stupid, however..
    Slowbike wrote:
    Riding Primary
    I can see why it is sometimes a good idea to ride "primary" - although the idea of primary seems to vary from rider to rider - some appear to be in the middle of the road! The vids where the motorist has got pissed off with the cyclist often seem to be where the rider is in primary with no apparently good reason. Although there may be a traffic queue up ahead, this doesn't give the cyclist the right to hold the traffic back.
    Presumably they know the road better than you so are able to make a better call.
    Then, you're defending a driver getting angry because they're held up getting to the back of the queue?
    Intolerance
    Cyclists intolerance seem to be where the vehicle is passing too close - this is subjective and usually difficult to judge from videos - but many seem to be "close" but not "too close" ...
    Often the video cams have a high FOV, this makes a car scraping past your handle bars seem farther away in the video than it was.
    In both situations the response from the cyclists is often verbally abusive - whilst I understand the frustration, the language is hardly going to encourage the wayward driver to be more considerate to cyclists ...
    Are you sure? you don't think next time they might consider that if they don't want to be shouted at they shouldn't do it again?
    FCN 9 || FCN 5
  • MrChuck
    MrChuck Posts: 1,663
    I'd think that's pretty unlikely. Far more likely reaction IMO is that they'll be all defensive and aggressive.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    jds_1981 wrote:
    Yes, there are some videos where the cyclist is stupid, however..
    Slowbike wrote:
    Riding Primary
    I can see why it is sometimes a good idea to ride "primary" - although the idea of primary seems to vary from rider to rider - some appear to be in the middle of the road! The vids where the motorist has got pissed off with the cyclist often seem to be where the rider is in primary with no apparently good reason. Although there may be a traffic queue up ahead, this doesn't give the cyclist the right to hold the traffic back.
    Presumably they know the road better than you so are able to make a better call.
    Then, you're defending a driver getting angry because they're held up getting to the back of the queue?
    Yup - that's why I said "appear" .. from the video it is difficult to see why they are riding that far out ... as for the driver getting held up to reach the back of the queue - how do you know they're not going to turn off?
    I don't mind riders in primary where it's obvious the rider is not holding up the traffic - I do this myself on a fast descent - with a wave of thanks to the waiting driver when we reach the queue .. :)
    jds_1981 wrote:
    Intolerance
    Cyclists intolerance seem to be where the vehicle is passing too close - this is subjective and usually difficult to judge from videos - but many seem to be "close" but not "too close" ...
    Often the video cams have a high FOV, this makes a car scraping past your handle bars seem farther away in the video than it was.
    that's why I said it was subjective and difficult to judge from videos .. some are really close - no argument, but the majority seem to be a "close pass" ... with just enough room - this shows up the intolerance of the cyclist who usually has a lot of room to the left ...
    Actually - riding slightly out is something I will do on purpose - when a vehicle passes closely I can move into the left to give me more room - defensive riding ... :)
    jds_1981 wrote:
    In both situations the response from the cyclists is often verbally abusive - whilst I understand the frustration, the language is hardly going to encourage the wayward driver to be more considerate to cyclists ...
    Are you sure? you don't think next time they might consider that if they don't want to be shouted at they shouldn't do it again?
    Yup - quite sure - being aggressive will most often result in an aggressive response and not endear the driver to your case. I appreciate emotions run high when you've been "carved up", but IMHO you'll get a better reaction if you don't swear at the driver...

    I suppose it comes down to who starts the aggression - if the cyclist starts it then don't be surprised when the driver responds in kind ...
  • jonny_trousers
    jonny_trousers Posts: 3,588
    I don't think you'll hear many arguments from people here Slowbike. Those who regularly post videos of their altercations with motorists on Youtube are well known for having a certain knack for seeking out trouble.

    I agree with pretty much everything you say, but I don't really see why you feel the need to create a thread here to say it. Surely you are not suggesting that just because those video posters you are talking of commute by bike then everyone who else who does is the same?

    If you want to get your message across to those it concerns then contact them directly. Youtube allows you the opportunity to leave messages.
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    Yep, camera's definitely have a way of making stuff look further away than it actually is. I've had videos where I've been clipped by a passing car, but if it wasn't for the "thunk" you'd watch the video and think that the car was close, but not that close.

    I use a cam when I'm commuting. It's there as a black box should anything go wrong. And it came in very useful when I was hit by a car a few months ago and the only other witness was a driver who drove around me lying in the road to get away. I'd actually nearly been run over three times in a row on a previous occasion by the witness(recognised the number plate when I watched the vid back), and I reckon if I'd have had a camera on that occasion then the police would have done something.

    It's very easy to watch a video, knowing that something is going to happen, and point out how the rider should or could have avoided the situation, but when you're on the bike you can't know who or what is going to cause a problem.

    One thing that does bug me is the riders who chase down drivers who don't give a f*** and know they're being aggressive/stupid/dangerous while shouting "put your number plate into youtube". Do they think the driver cares in the slightest? Do they think the driver's friends, family and colleagues regularly search youtube for the number plates of everyone they know, so the peer pressure will improve their driving?

    I have no problem with shouting at drivers if they're about to squash me. "WHOOOOAAA" is our equivalent of a horn :wink:. Chasing someone down after the event to rant at them (or smash off wing mirrors) won't help though. I've very calmly pointed out that someone has nearly killed me on a few occasions and got a couple of apologies from drivers. Hard as it is to stay 'zen', there's something very calming about being 'wronged' and just compensating for the other person's idiocy and letting it go.
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Jonny_Trousers wrote:
    I don't think you'll hear many arguments from people here Slowbike. Those who regularly post videos of their altercations with motorists on Youtube are well known for having a certain knack for seeking out trouble.
    Being new here I haven't got to grips with those that do ... :)
    Jonny_Trousers wrote:
    I agree with pretty much everything you say, but I don't really see why you feel the need to create a thread here to say it.
    It's just comment/conversation - that's what these places are for isn't it?!
    Jonny_Trousers wrote:
    Surely you are not suggesting that just because those video posters you are talking of commute by bike then everyone who else who does is the same?
    I'm perfectly aware that the vast majority of biking commuters don't even have a camera - let alone post to youtube - but how many react in a similar fashion to them?
    Jonny_Trousers wrote:
    If you want to get your message across to those it concerns then contact them directly. Youtube allows you the opportunity to leave messages.
    yup, it does ... I'd prefer to have a discussion about it without being sworn at - as is often the case when you do comment directly ... :)
  • jonny_trousers
    jonny_trousers Posts: 3,588
    Your post sounded a little preachy and presumptuous to me, but perhaps I read it wrong.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Jonny_Trousers wrote:
    Your post sounded a little preachy and presumptuous to me, but perhaps I read it wrong.
    I tried not to make it that way ...
  • jds_1981
    jds_1981 Posts: 1,858
    Slowbike wrote:
    Yup - quite sure - being aggressive will most often result in an aggressive response and not endear the driver to your case. I appreciate emotions run high when you've been "carved up", but IMHO you'll get a better reaction if you don't swear at the driver...

    Sure, immediately, but I suspect from the next day they'll be more considerate about passing cyclists (which is what I beliive the original point was about)
    FCN 9 || FCN 5
  • jeepie
    jeepie Posts: 497
    I don't wear a camera on my commute. However, I have considered getting one on and off over the past few years. If you are knocked off and don't have the wherewithal to collar a sympathetic and independent witness (which is quite likely to happen as more than likely you'll be hurt and in shock) you have no evidence to go on and without strict liability you'll have very little chance of making any case at all. Sure a camera isn't everything but it is something.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Jeepie wrote:
    I don't wear a camera on my commute. However, I have considered getting one on and off over the past few years. If you are knocked off and don't have the wherewithal to collar a sympathetic and independent witness (which is quite likely to happen as more than likely you'll be hurt and in shock) you have no evidence to go on and without strict liability you'll have very little chance of making any case at all. Sure a camera isn't everything but it is something.
    been thinking along the same lines ... and with HD cameras for £30 or so it's not one of the more expensive items on the bike!
  • king_jeffers
    king_jeffers Posts: 694
    I hardly use my camera now, regardless of if I'm in the car or cycling you always come across knob heads. Its really not worth adding to the knob head count by becoming one yourself just to get some viewing figures.
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    King Jeffers wrote:
    I hardly use my camera now, regardless of if I'm in the car or cycling you always come across knob heads. Its really not worth adding to the knob head count by becoming one yourself just to get some viewing figures.
    If you become a knobhead whan you've got your camera on then that's your problem! :?

    I agree, don't be a knob head, whatever your form of transport, but I don't see why a camera makes you one.
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • jeepie
    jeepie Posts: 497
    @bails87 - since we all encounter bad driving e.g. failing to give way due to the "unexpected" speed of cyclists on a daily basis, do you think wearing a camera makes you feel less content to let things go? As a cyclist I feel I get a raw deal on the road and therefore does wearing a camera make it more likely that this frustration will come out as I have clear proof of this raw deal? = knobhead........... This is what's put me off getting one tbh.
  • peat
    peat Posts: 1,242
    bails87 wrote:
    I agree, don't be a knob head, whatever your form of transport, but I don't see why a camera makes you one.
    [/quote]

    Sub-consciously justifying your purchase?
  • king_jeffers
    king_jeffers Posts: 694
    bails87 wrote:
    If you become a knobhead whan you've got your camera on then that's your problem! :? I agree, don't be a knob head, whatever your form of transport, but I don't see why a camera makes you one.

    Should have explained better - a stack of videos capture incidents that you would normally overlook in day to day road use regardless of mode of transport. It seems those with cameras are more inclined to seek confrontation, example: a driver cuts you up when your in the car. Would you really feel the need to chase them down and explain the error of his/her ways? To me it feels like 80% of footage turns what would be a minor mistake into a major incident.

    I can't access youtube at work, one video I have in mind was a cyclist confronting a policewomen regarding the use of her radio when driving... totally pointless and done for no other reason than getting extra viewers. Some of CyclingMikey's videos are in the same vein and traffic droid, although the latter is more entertaining :)
  • woodnut
    woodnut Posts: 562
    Jeepie wrote:
    @bails87 - since we all encounter bad driving e.g. failing to give way due to the "unexpected" speed of cyclists on a daily basis, do you think wearing a camera makes you feel less content to let things go? As a cyclist I feel I get a raw deal on the road and therefore does wearing a camera make it more likely that this frustration will come out as I have clear proof of this raw deal? = knobhead........... This is what's put me off getting one tbh.

    (not replying on behalf of bails...but)

    People buy/use cameras for many reasons. I bought one after getting knocked off, but to be honest, it has sat gathering dust for ages.
    Some people use them as a campaigning tool, and will post any & every incident they come across to make the point that cyclists lives are at risk, whilst a motorist risks scratching their car.
    It's a valid point, whether You Tube is the best forum for the debate is another issue.
    Lot's of people use them just to record and review their rides, mountain bikers especially.
    So no, buying one won't make you go nobbish, unless you are already of the nobbish tendency. :D
    Genesis I
    Genesis II
    Planet X
  • jds_1981
    jds_1981 Posts: 1,858
    King Jeffers wrote:
    example: a driver cuts you up when your in the car. Would you really feel the need to chase them down and explain the error of his/her ways?

    If it was bad enough yes, I've not used a camera in a while, but I've had a chat with drivers more often since stopping than I did with one.
    FCN 9 || FCN 5
  • Kieran_Burns
    Kieran_Burns Posts: 9,757
    I think people who know me in this forum know I use a camera and post vidoes regularly. I also hope that they remember I have a camera for the lighter side of commuting

    I have had a couple of bad moments on the bike captured on film and yes, I have had someone convicted of a motoring offence because of my film evidence (that would be the daft tart for those that remember)

    The other really bad moment is this one: http://youtu.be/Fer0Gkdkyfc?hd=1

    The Police are actually sitting down with the driver and showing him what happened from my point of view. I like this approach as I am firmly in the camp of "do not attribute to malicious intent what can be explained by incompetence"
    Chunky Cyclists need your love too! :-)
    2009 Specialized Tricross Sport
    2011 Trek Madone 4.5
    2012 Felt F65X
    Proud CX Pervert and quiet roadie. 12 mile commuter
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    ***Warning, giant post ahead!***
    Peat wrote:
    bails87 wrote:
    I agree, don't be a knob head, whatever your form of transport, but I don't see why a camera makes you one.
    Sub-consciously justifying your purchase?
    I'm sorry, but I have genuinely no idea what you're talking about.

    My camera was 'justified' when it meant that I was able to get my bike repairs and private physio treatment paid for by a driver's insurance rather than out of my own pocket.
    King Jeffers wrote:
    I can't access youtube at work, one video I have in mind was a cyclist confronting a policewomen regarding the use of her radio when driving... totally pointless and done for no other reason than getting extra viewers. Some of CyclingMikey's videos are in the same vein and traffic droid, although the latter is more entertaining :)
    So a few cyclists who have cameras have confronted shoddy drivers?

    What about the confrontational cyclists who don't have cameras? They can't share a video of the incident so you don't see it, but the confrontation has still happened?
    What about the helmet cammers who aren't confrontational? (Look at Kieran Burns' videos, they're all him playing on the BMX track or riding up muddy mountains on a road bike! :lol: ) By definition they don't confront drivers so, again, you don't see the confrontations because they don't happen.
    Jeepie wrote:
    @bails87 - since we all encounter bad driving e.g. failing to give way due to the "unexpected" speed of cyclists on a daily basis, do you think wearing a camera makes you feel less content to let things go? As a cyclist I feel I get a raw deal on the road and therefore does wearing a camera make it more likely that this frustration will come out as I have clear proof of this raw deal? = knobhead........... This is what's put me off getting one tbh.
    Did you watch the video that I linked to above? That was me being punched in the face. I don't want that to happen again, so ranting and raving at drivers isn't something I'm going to indulge myself in. (That incident had nothing to do with the cam. The driver clipped me, then thought I'd kicked his car. I got off the road and stopped to let him through, he pulled over, jumped out and attacked me.)

    Depends what you mean by 'let things go' though. I was nearly crushed by an M and S lorry a while ago. I had to go onto the pavement to compensate for his p155 poor attempt at an overtake. When I went past the back of the store where the lorry was parking up I got the lorry's info and went home. I sent an email to M&S telling them what happened, they apologised, spoke to the driver and asked if they could use the video for their training. I didn't 'not let it go' by attacking the driver or anything like that.
    woodnut wrote:
    (not replying on behalf of bails...but)

    People buy/use cameras for many reasons. I bought one after getting knocked off, but to be honest, it has sat gathering dust for ages.
    Some people use them as a campaigning tool, and will post any & every incident they come across to make the point that cyclists lives are at risk, whilst a motorist risks scratching their car.
    It's a valid point, whether You Tube is the best forum for the debate is another issue.
    Lot's of people use them just to record and review their rides, mountain bikers especially.
    So no, buying one won't make you go nobbish, unless you are already of the nobbish tendency. :D
    You've hit the nail on the head, IMO. I know a camera won't protect me. It will show me up as a fool if I'm riding dangerously, it will prove I'm at fault if I do something wrong. But it's also a record of what happened, without "ooo, I can't remember" or any bias.

    I don't go 'looking for trouble' any more than a company that puts CCTV on it's premises goes 'looking for burglars' :roll:
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • mybreakfastconsisted
    mybreakfastconsisted Posts: 1,018
    Bike cams should be fitted as standard to bikes, quite a few aggressive, bullying drivers have been caught and prosecuted following the footage captured.
  • Kieran_Burns
    Kieran_Burns Posts: 9,757
    Yeah plus I got some great footage of women on horses wearing not a lot!
    Chunky Cyclists need your love too! :-)
    2009 Specialized Tricross Sport
    2011 Trek Madone 4.5
    2012 Felt F65X
    Proud CX Pervert and quiet roadie. 12 mile commuter
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    Kieran_Burns wrote:
    Yeah plus I got some great footage of women on horses wearing not a lot!
    How much do horses normally wear? :wink:
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • king_jeffers
    king_jeffers Posts: 694
    bails87 wrote:
    ***Warning, giant post ahead!***

    Was just saying... some folks seem to seek confrontation for the entertainment of the world :cry:

    cant-we-all-just-get-along.jpg

    /hug :)
  • jeepie
    jeepie Posts: 497
    Thanks for the reply bails. I hadn't seen the video but it's extremely horrid. So sorry... I didn't intend to imply you sought trouble.
  • gtvlusso
    gtvlusso Posts: 5,112
    mybreakfastconsisted wrote:
    Bike cams should be fitted as standard to bikes, quite a few aggressive, bullying drivers have been caught and prosecuted following the footage captured.

    I would like to submit this for 'post of the month' :roll:
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    King Jeffers wrote:
    bails87 wrote:
    ***Warning, giant post ahead!***

    Was just saying... some folks seem to seek confrontation for the entertainment of the world :cry:

    I'm not disagreeing, but there are people who don't have cams who do it for their own entertainment.

    A camera just makes a nobber more visible. They're still a nobber without a cam, you just can't watch them on youtube! :lol:

    Jeepie: Don't worry, that's not what I was saying

    :)
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • mybreakfastconsisted
    mybreakfastconsisted Posts: 1,018
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgUGtD7FY2Q

    Bloody hell! What happened to that cretin?

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