Power Meters - Current Dilemma's

Duncanandthemachine

Hi Folks,

Having come to the end of a relatively successful first season of competing in a few 25 mile time trials I'm starting think about training for next year (2.5 week holiday later this month and no more events planned hence early season finish).

I keep coming back to the fact that I want a more tangible way to measure progress and set training targets, at which point a power meter is the obvious solution.

As I can see it I have several options:

1. Turbo Trainer with power measurement to do intervals and regular tests. I could probably get one for about £350.

2. Lemond Revolution Turbo with power measurement, because standard turbo’s feel nothing like real roads and these are supposed to be a significant improvement. Cost here probably about £550.

3. Powertap Pro+, either build into something like a Mavic open pro and used just for training (cost about £750) or build into an aero rim that I could use for training in decent weather and as a race wheel.

4. Quarq power meter, either built into my training bike or my TT bike (cost about £1500)

Have any of you had a similar dilemma? What did you conclude? If you bought one of the above how are you finding the reality of training with power? Are there any advantages or disadvantages of any of the options that I may have missed?

Whilst I’m certainly not in a position to say money is no object, for the right piece of kit I'm willing to invest in my training.

Cheers,

Duncan

t.m.h.n.e.t

viewtopic.php?f=40011&t=12869366 ?

cadseen

Turbo trainer power measurement is not accurate, works on speed, sources of error also tyres and tyre drag etc..
Also inaccuracies due to temperature build up. Power tap type would be better.

t.m.h.n.e.t

cadseen wrote:

Turbo trainer power measurement is not accurate, works on speed, sources of error also tyres and tyre drag etc..
Also inaccuracies due to temperature build up. Power tap type would be better.

Nobody said it was.

Duncanandthemachine

how about the Lemond revolution? Surely it could have strain gauges in the 'hub' just like a power tap...or it is also a calculation based on speed etc?

P_Tucker

Duncanandthemachine wrote:

how about the Lemond revolution? Surely it could have strain gauges in the 'hub' just like a power tap...or it is also a calculation based on speed etc?

http://university.tri-sports.com/2010/1 ... r-trainer/

Looks like its an 8-ball

danowat

Bottomline here, how much money do you want to throw at it?

I brought a powertap and some disc covers, and it's a great piece of kit, use it on every training ride, however, it's a heavy lump, being a 36H hub and a Mavic open pro rim, so everytime I raced, I had the niggle in the back of my mind that I was dragging around a bit of an anchor, so I bought a Quarq for my TT bike.

If I could just have one, the powertap would win, just because of the flexibility of it.

bahzob

I would advise against Powertap for 2 reasons:
- If you train with a power meter its best to also race with a power meter. Both in order to understand your performance/set training zones and as a useful tool to race better (especially in TTs, they allow you to pace very precisely.)
Powertaps dont let you do this. You have to compromise in some way or other. It gets even worse if you start to compete in other events as well.
- They are unreliable and when they break they cost a fortune/take an age to repair once out of warranty.

I speak from experience. I started off with one Powertap just to train and ended up with 5 (due to riding different events and needing spares), 2 of which are now broken.

My advice right now would be to wait. Like you say the season is nearing its end so its going to be a while before you get best advantage from having a power meter. (You could perhaps rent a wheel for a month or so to get used to using a power meter and get some peak fitness numbers.)

This may give time for a pedal based meter to finally hit the market. If it one does and they are reliable/OK for cost then they definitely will be worth a look. If nothing else another competitor should make other manufacturers improve their products in terms of function cost.

If you end up choosing a Powertap it will IMO anyway waiting. They seem to be most prone to dying during bad weather towards the end of their warranty, so if you get one in spring it will still be in guarantee during winter a couple of year later.

dawebbo

I think that if you've decided that you definitely want to buy a powermeter, then not having one for winter training while waiting for vaporware makes no sense at all.
I've seen plenty of people use disc covers on powertap wheels, also they hold their value quite well, so if you decide to upgrade to crank based then you should be able to recoup some of the initial outlay. Another option would be to keep an eye out for a second hand wired srm - which will probably cost a similar amount to a powertap, but then you can use it with the disc that you will end up getting...

amaferanga

bahzob wrote:

I would advise against Powertap for 2 reasons:
- If you train with a power meter its best to also race with a power meter. Both in order to understand your performance/set training zones and as a useful tool to race better (especially in TTs, they allow you to pace very precisely.)
Powertaps dont let you do this. You have to compromise in some way or other. It gets even worse if you start to compete in other events as well.
- They are unreliable and when they break they cost a fortune/take an age to repair once out of warranty.

I speak from experience. I started off with one Powertap just to train and ended up with 5 (due to riding different events and needing spares), 2 of which are now broken.

My advice right now would be to wait. Like you say the season is nearing its end so its going to be a while before you get best advantage from having a power meter. (You could perhaps rent a wheel for a month or so to get used to using a power meter and get some peak fitness numbers.)

This may give time for a pedal based meter to finally hit the market. If it one does and they are reliable/OK for cost then they definitely will be worth a look. If nothing else another competitor should make other manufacturers improve their products in terms of function cost.

If you end up choosing a Powertap it will IMO anyway waiting. They seem to be most prone to dying during bad weather towards the end of their warranty, so if you get one in spring it will still be in guarantee during winter a couple of year later.

What? No-one told me that. I've been training and racing with a PowerTap for 2 years now. I can see TT's being a bit different unless you buy disc covers, but for training and road racing I get buy quite happily with my PowerTap laced to a carbon clincher through the summer and then a alloy rim through autumn/winter.

Having said this, if I had the cash I'd get a crank based system.

Duncanandthemachine

Some interesting thoughts there, thanks.

I must admit the powertap reliability issue is something that you can't get away from. Every forum has one or two happy power tap owners and one or two unhappy owners. Even allowing for the fact that unhappy people are more vocal, there is clearly a problem somewhere.

Regardless, the concept of moving the power tap hub between an alloy rim and a decent carbon rim hadn't occurred to me. Replacing a wheel will cost less than £50, which makes this a sensible option.

I am quite happy to wait to buy something. I envisage spending October - December putting the miles in, for which I don't need a power meter, and then starting to crank up intensity through January to March. Now dependant on weather (?!) I may well end up on my rollers for much of this time anyway, but I'm playing the long game here and am planning beyond next season which will start earlier than usual due to holiday etc.

Pedal systems appear to be something resembling the holy grail for us non sponsored folks who can't afford multiply SRM's to equip all our steeds, perhaps a few months will see Garmin get their act together and release something! Every new innovation has a tipping point at which point the commercial viability of the item increases significantly. Perhaps power meters haven't quite reached this level yet...?

Duncanandthemachine

Another question - how easy is it to swap a crank based system (SRAM Quarq realistically, SRM's are beyond price range) between bikes?

Obviously it won't be as quick and simple as changing a wheel, but is it a 5, 10, 20, 60 minute job?

danowat

Duncanandthemachine wrote:

Obviously it won't be as quick and simple as changing a wheel, but is it a 5, 10, 20, 60 minute job?

5min job max if the same BB is on each bike

SBezza

There is nothing wrong with a 36h powertap on a Mavic Open Pro with disc covers, I have gone just as fast using this wheel as I have with my disc or a 50mm wheel. The weight penalty for a normal TT course is just not worth worrying about, the selection of appropiate tyres and inner tubes will play a bigger part in performance.

No doubt people could lose the extra kilo the wheel and covers make over a disc wheel, but hey people want to get weight off the bike first. All I do is change the tyre to a race tyre and put the covers on for each race, doesn't take long and is fairly cost effective way of training and racing with power.

A crank based powermeter is probably the better option, though you have to budget twice as much for it, it all comes down to what you can personally afford. As for the water issues, then yes electronics and water do not mix, but they are not that bad, I believe even Quarq are not immune to troubles with water are they Danowat .

I have had relatively few issues with my PT wheel, it hasn't been perfect, but even in a full winter with loads of use in the wet weather it works without issues 95%+ of the time.

danowat

SBezza wrote:

There is nothing wrong with a 36h powertap on a Mavic Open Pro with disc covers, I have gone just as fast using this wheel as I have with my disc or a 50mm wheel. The weight penalty for a normal TT course is just not worth worrying about, the selection of appropiate tyres and inner tubes will play a bigger part in performance.

No doubt people could lose the extra kilo the wheel and covers make over a disc wheel, but hey people want to get weight off the bike first. All I do is change the tyre to a race tyre and put the covers on for each race, doesn't take long and is fairly cost effective way of training and racing with power.

You are quite right, and the difference is (probably) minimal, and if I wasn't in a position to have been able to afford a Quarq, I'd still be racing with my powertap.

SBezza wrote:

I believe even Quarq are not immune to troubles with water are they Danowat .

Indeed not , and mile for mile, my PT has so far been much more reliable!

Nothing is perfect, however, I do think the closest you can get to perfection currently is an SRM, however, you pay a premium for it.

As for pedal based system's, these aren't going to be the holy grail everyone seems to expect, they have been plagued by development issues, and I can't see them being much more reliable than anything else that's available.

ric/rstsport

Duncanandthemachine wrote:

I am quite happy to wait to buy something. I envisage spending October - December putting the miles in, for which I don't need a power meter, and then starting to crank up intensity through January to March.

Just curious... but why would you consider investing in a power meter and keep training in what can only be described as an 'old school manner'?

I'm not saying you don't need to keep volume up during the winter, but if all you do is the same as before it's unlikely you're going to improve...

ric

Duncanandthemachine

Hi Ric,

From my understanding (based on Joel Friel’s training bible and extensive reading online) – and I see from your signature that you may be qualified to correct me here:

The objective of winter (base) training is to increase the no. of mitochondria in the muscles, which amounts to ‘building the engine’ to coin a phrase I hear fairly regularly. It would appear that the optimum level to train at to do this, whilst remaining fresh enough to train regularly, is around the aerobic threshold. The best way to measure this is a combination of heart rate and general ‘feel’ for breathing to become laboured etc.

I plan to ride 2 – 3 time Monday to Friday before work and breakfast (probably 1.5 to 2hrs duration), so that I can develop fat burning abilities faster than I would be able to if I’ve eaten during the day. I’ll then probably do a 4hr ride at the weekend to ensure I keep myself used to longer rides.

Having completed approx 3 months of training like this (combined with weights in the gym – another can of worms I know, but I felt the benefits this year) I will begin to increase the intensity of my training to improve the density of the mitochondria. As far as I’m aware, the best way to do this is to train around threshold level, and again I understand the best metric to use for this to be Functional Power Threshold – hence thinking about buying a power meter for this segment of my training.

Any observations you can offer would be very welcome!

ric/rstsport

Increasing the quantity of both mitochondrion and capillary density is better correlated to training at far higher intensities: these being at around TT power (~1hr) and MAP/Vo2max. Of course though it's somewhat difficult to do such training daily, but i wouldn't suggest riding around at zone 1 to 2 the whole winter.

The ability to oxidise "fat" is also more related to mitochondrion density (people who are fitter - i.e., have a higher sustainable power output) oxidise more "fat" at a given intensity than people who are less fit.

I coach riders from people who do events such as sportives and 3rd cats (etc) through to elite world champions, they all do some sort of intensity all year round. I've been suggesting this method ever since i can recall. It appears that others have just started to suggest similar (see Bradley Wiggin's quotes on maintaining high level of fitness all year round).

Ric

Duncanandthemachine

Hi Ric,

Thanks! So essentially you are advocating the development of volume and density of mitochondria in parallel, rather than in series?

Lets say I can train for 1.5hours Monday to Saturday and 4 hours on Sunday, approximately what split of low intensity / high intensity / Strength training would you advocate?

ric/rstsport

Duncanandthemachine wrote:

Hi Ric,

Thanks! So essentially you are advocating the development of volume and density of mitochondria in parallel, rather than in series?

Lets say I can train for 1.5hours Monday to Saturday and 4 hours on Sunday, approximately what split of low intensity / high intensity / Strength training would you advocate?

well, yes, but may be not. I'm not giving specific examples of what to do, because
1) i'd need to know far more about you (than i already do), and
2) because i obviously don't do this for free (i.e., i'm a paid coach)

as regards strength training, i think my thoughts are reasonably well documented on the internet

we do offer coaching and training plans see https://podio.com/webforms/1390914/87265

Ric

Duncanandthemachine

No worries - I had a glance at your website after your first post. Coaching is something I gave a little consideration to, I guess we are all trying to find the most cost effective way to improve our performance, either buy investing in training equipment, lighter kit or the advise of experts.

I've noticed a lot of coaches only work with people who have power meters - out of interest, does RTS advocate this?

I've found one forum with some of your thoughts on weight training - this is a frustrating subject for us non experts, because for every 'expert opinion' in favour, there is another against. Both make arguments that seem logical to me, some it comes down to personal choice i guess.

ric/rstsport

Our training plans are well worth investing in, they're not expensive and offer proven benefits.

At RST we prefer to work with riders who have power meters, but we do work with one or two who don't have a power meter.

If you want to do weight training (etc) then by all means do it. perhaps you have a requirement in your non-cycling life that needs it? On the other hand, in general i wouldn't recommend it for endurance cyclists, especially those who are time limited. However, i do work with a couple of riders who do, do weights and strength training.

The evidence is really limited to show that weights may work, and there's perhaps more reasons to suggest that it wouldn't work. Anecdotally, i've coached riders at world class level who don't do weights.

Ric

Duncanandthemachine

Grand, you may hear from me after my holiday next month!

ric/rstsport

cool look forward to it. have a good holiday

bahzob

Duncanandthemachine wrote:

Hi Ric,

Thanks! So essentially you are advocating the development of volume and density of mitochondria in parallel, rather than in series?

Lets say I can train for 1.5hours Monday to Saturday and 4 hours on Sunday, approximately what split of low intensity / high intensity / Strength training would you advocate?

If you only have this amount of time to train take a look at http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Time-crunched-Cyclist-Powerful-Time-Crunched/dp/1934030473

The whole idea behind it is that if training time is "limited" you are better off spending it doing higher intensity work.

Re strength training, part of the confusion stems from the fact there are lots of different types of cyclists. Some will benefit from weights more than others e.g. sprinters most will, see this for an extreme example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ir_lwKCp_s

Endurance the case is less clear. However I'd differentiate strength training from core training. The former requires a fair amount of time and special equipment. The latter requires little time and just needs a couple of square yards of space. Most everyone will benefit from including this in their training.