Alex Salmond's comment

MattC59

Last time this came up, I read an interesting figure.

After all the crowing about Scotland having the oil and therefore not needing the input from the UK tax purse, the net flow of cash, per person, is currently £38 per person, per month. OK, so that's not much, per person, but with a population of 5.5million, that equates to a net cash flow of approximately £2.5bn to Scotland pa. That's a big hole in Mr Salmonds spending !

And before I get shot down, I can't remember the source of this so can't corroborate it, but it was an economic report which I stumbled upon last time this came up on here. I'm sure that someone will be along shortly to corroborate this, or shoot me down calling me all sorts of names Either way, don't get upset if the numbers aren't quite right (pretty sure they are though !) the fact is, that the net flow of cash is into Scotland. (That bit's definitely right )

daviesee

MattC59 wrote:

Last time this came up, I read an interesting figure.

As I said earlier, anyone voting should not be doing so based on the money in their pocket.
The issue is far more serious than being a few quid up or down per year.

rolf_f

daviesee wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Well I do recall Salmond crowing about how he'd got extra taxation income directed to Scotland ........

Back to economics again. This is a white elephant and I hope the voters are savvy enough to see through it - both sides of the arguement.
If someone truly believes in independance they will put up with a bit of financial hardship. If they are not prepared to put up with that hardship then they do not truly believe in independance.
This point should be made loud and clear.

I take your point but you can't ignore the economics. If it isn't economically viable, then its going to be a lot of financial hardship rather than a bit and at what point then does the request for help come (even if it is in the form of the Bank of England taking account of 'Independant' Scotland in its management of the pound?). I don't pretend to know the answer but I just think that the current situation is likely to work better for Scotland and the rest of the UK better than their independance.

I love Scotland and would hate to see it abandon the Union (i'm British - why would I want to see part of my country go off and render both parts less efficient?) but ultimately it's down to what the people want. But if they do go, it should be for the right reasons and not the dubious rhetoric of Salmond.

daviesee

It's a tricky situation Rolf, no doubt about it.
Some perspective.
People have died for an independent Scotland in the past. Right now, somewhere in the World someone will be dying fighting for their right to self determination. If the Scots aren't willing to forgo a few Pound to get independence then first of all, they don't really want it and secondly, I don't think they deserve it.
That said, greed is prevalent so I think the NO vote will win by a huge margin.
My idea for the vote question - Do you agree to Scottish independence, even if it means losing (random figure) 10% of your income? That'll sort out who is serious and who is not.

Regarding the currency - Alex Salmond has been caught out. His initial plan was to ditch the Pound and dive head long into the Euro. With the current situation in the EU, he will never be able to sell that one so he is trying to find an acceptable second option.

It is going to be an interesting next 2 years for sure but I believe that the Union is safe. Unless the f***w!ts in Westminster do something stupid to rile us. Telling us that we won't cope for a start..........

tigerben

Going slightly back to original post - I am guessing Alex salmond felt the need to make the comment as all the GB success was making everyone realise what we can achieve as a nation when we work together. All the scenes of scots/ English / welsh / northern Irish sportsmen and supporters getting on together and achieving great success was too much for him - so he had to make his pissy little comment. Why does he not ask the Scottish Olympians whose team they would rather be on?

rodgers73

tigerben wrote:

Why does he not ask the Scottish Olympians whose team they would rather be on?

Would it really matter if yours was an individual event?

solosuperia

Worst case analysis...If the union breaks up could the UK descend into the same turmoil the way Yugoslavia went?
I'm sure their will be replies on here that say:- "I have a lot of Scottish friends etc.", and vice versa.
But I'm certain the same was said in Yugoslavia, Cyprus and a number of African nations.

No so bad but another outcome, Scotland failure to get independence leads to the formation of a Scottish Republican Army that operates like the IRA used to.

Having been born and lived in England my whole life it is to my detriment that I never realised that the desire for independence was so strong in Scotland.

I know the Scots are very proud of their roots and the ones I know make you aware of it at any opportunity.

l didn't comprehend, up until the last few years their was this underlying forment.

daviesee

SoloSuperia wrote:

Worst case analysis....

I can't ever see a civil war happening.

The Scottish National Liberation Army however did (does?) exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_N ... ation_Army

The Scots in general feel Nationalistic to various levels. Some are very serious (see above) and some couldn't care less. The majority are in the grey area in between. IMHO.

rolf_f

SoloSuperia wrote:

Worst case analysis...If the union breaks up could the UK descend into the same turmoil the way Yugoslavia went?

Why should there be? The main reason that there is antagonism between the Scots and English is because the media are constantly baiting.
One benefit of Scotlands independence is that there'd be be even less justification for the tabloid nonsense; I really think that 99% of Scots and 99% of English like each other (at least the ones capable of independant thought).
The only civil war for me would be the one where we get all the tabloid journalists and quite a few of the politicians and put them in a big boat off the Solway Firth and set fire to it.

If Scotland went independant, there would be no visual sign of it.

GiantMike

rodgers73 wrote:

I'm from Yorkshire and, as lovely as the place may be (with some exceptions - Bradford, Leeds, Castleford/Pontefract), it doesn't half bore me to tears to hear how some locals go on about how fantastic the place is etc.

Tedious parochialism...

I must disagree. I'm originally from London, have lived in Scotland, Lancashire, Wiltshire, Lincolnshire, N Wales and I've been to most of the UK. I now live in Yorkshire (and have for 18 months) and it's by far the best place I've ever lived. I'll move back when I retire, and probably bore anybody within earshot about how great the place is. Tedious, maybe. Parochial, no.

Alain Quay

A few comments by a foreign emigrant to Scotland:
- the issue is bigger than and not dependant on Alex Salmond
- would NZ, Autralia or any other proud nation settle for a permanent union? No way
- Scotland suffers a lot of problems and per capita cost the Uk more than England. It would have to pay it way so would have to get tough on the excesses, garbage diet etc that burden the NHS & social services & drain tax revenue
- if independent, ideas would flow in directly from the continent etc and not trickle up the M1, it could have targeted immigration of skilled workers, etc
- utimately the country would be be more self-confident and proud.

It wouldn't be easy and I ain't holding my breath, but Scotland is distinct enough that it should seek to go it alone.
I'd like to see Renfrewshire United FC too, wearing a beige strip.

willhub

FCUK YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YORKSHIRE!! YEAHHHHHHH!!!!!!! GOD'S COUNTRY, FCUK YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rolf_f

GiantMike wrote:

rodgers73 wrote:

I'm from Yorkshire and, as lovely as the place may be (with some exceptions - Bradford, Leeds, Castleford/Pontefract), it doesn't half bore me to tears to hear how some locals go on about how fantastic the place is etc.

Tedious parochialism...

I must disagree. I'm originally from London, have lived in Scotland, Lancashire, Wiltshire, Lincolnshire, N Wales and I've been to most of the UK. I now live in Yorkshire (and have for 18 months) and it's by far the best place I've ever lived. I'll move back when I retire, and probably bore anybody within earshot about how great the place is. Tedious, maybe. Parochial, no.

+1 I'm not from Yorkshire but have lived in the Home Counties, Cambridgeshire, Peterborough, Leicester etc and like it. It seems rather harsh to lump Leeds in with Cas, Ponte and Bradford (not sure rodgers73 has actually been to all four places as it's a strange lumping to make) as I can't think of an ex industrial City in the UK that's nicer.

jordan_217

Rolf F wrote:

GiantMike wrote:

rodgers73 wrote:

I'm from Yorkshire and, as lovely as the place may be (with some exceptions - Bradford, Leeds, Castleford/Pontefract), it doesn't half bore me to tears to hear how some locals go on about how fantastic the place is etc.

Tedious parochialism...

I must disagree. I'm originally from London, have lived in Scotland, Lancashire, Wiltshire, Lincolnshire, N Wales and I've been to most of the UK. I now live in Yorkshire (and have for 18 months) and it's by far the best place I've ever lived. I'll move back when I retire, and probably bore anybody within earshot about how great the place is. Tedious, maybe. Parochial, no.

+1 I'm not from Yorkshire but have lived in the Home Counties, Cambridgeshire, Peterborough, Leicester etc and like it. It seems rather harsh to lump Leeds in with Cas, Ponte and Bradford (not sure rodgers73 has actually been to all four places as it's a strange lumping to make) as I can't think of an ex industrial City in the UK that's nicer.

Another +1 from me. I've lived in various places around England and spent 4 years in Scotland, originally from Middlesbrough. I'd up sticks and move to Yorkshire (specifically N. Yorks) in a heartbeat, if I could afford it. Beautiful place, friendly people and some of the nicest cycling routes around.

I'll be there next week, hopefully riding up Carlton Bank on Tuesday

shockedsoshocked

jordan_217 wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

GiantMike wrote:

rodgers73 wrote:

I'm from Yorkshire and, as lovely as the place may be (with some exceptions - Bradford, Leeds, Castleford/Pontefract), it doesn't half bore me to tears to hear how some locals go on about how fantastic the place is etc.

Tedious parochialism...

I must disagree. I'm originally from London, have lived in Scotland, Lancashire, Wiltshire, Lincolnshire, N Wales and I've been to most of the UK. I now live in Yorkshire (and have for 18 months) and it's by far the best place I've ever lived. I'll move back when I retire, and probably bore anybody within earshot about how great the place is. Tedious, maybe. Parochial, no.

+1 I'm not from Yorkshire but have lived in the Home Counties, Cambridgeshire, Peterborough, Leicester etc and like it. It seems rather harsh to lump Leeds in with Cas, Ponte and Bradford (not sure rodgers73 has actually been to all four places as it's a strange lumping to make) as I can't think of an ex industrial City in the UK that's nicer.

Another +1 from me. I've lived in various places around England and spent 4 years in Scotland, originally from Middlesbrough. I'd up sticks and move to Yorkshire (specifically N. Yorks) in a heartbeat, if I could afford it. Beautiful place, friendly people and some of the nicest cycling routes around.

I'll be there next week, hopefully riding up Carlton Bank on Tuesday

Carlton Bank, nothing says "welcome home" like a mile of uphill tarmac

Flexisurfer

Being the son of a Yorkshire father and a Scottish mother we are all looking forward to the public execution of Salmond and the new Olympic sport of whippet racing, or the Yorkshire triathlon, whippet, pigeon and cribbage :-0

solosuperia

Flexisurfer wrote:

Being the son of a Yorkshire father and a Scottish mother

Have you had counselling?

nwallace

phearnde wrote:

GiantMike wrote:

..I think there should be an English/Welsh Referendum to see whether we should ditch Scotland and go it alone...

We were arguing this very point this morning, in the office...

Who says the English can't have independence from their neighbours

You'll need to discover Englishness first...

WheelieBad

That would really confuse the Americans. England not being a part of Britain. I'd like to see them trying to get their heads around that

crescent

All Salmond's arguments are based around bluster, bravado and patriotism/jingoism. He continually side steps the major issues around economy, currency, military, sovereignty etc. Until he comes up with some credible answers on these he is onto a loser as far as I am concerned. I am a proud Scot but also a very proud Brit. The countries that make up the UK all have their own identity which is a good thing but I think we are privileged to have this dual nationality when we come under the umbrella of Great Britain. The Olympics has served to illustrate this well. I was just as pleased to see Jessica Ennis,for example, do as well as Andy Murray and Bradley Wiggins pick up a gold as well as Chris Hoy.
I do think England should have its own national anthem to differentiate when England or the UK is being represented but do not agree with those who refused to sing it, petty and embarrassing in my opinion.

Cheers

daviesee

Crescent wrote:

I do think England should have its own national anthem to differentiate when England or the UK is being represented but do not agree with those who refused to sing it, petty and embarrassing in my opinion.

Cheers

I agree with the National Anthem issue but I am not sure about the non-singing being an issue. I know that it can come over that way but quite a few (most I saw) English competitors didn't sing it either.

crescent

Agreed. I understand some people, regardless of nationality, do not feel comfortable singing the anthem and some may prefer quiet contemplation or to focus on the task at hand rather than mumbling along in time to the music. No problem with that. It's the ones that try to use it to make a point that irks me. They are representing GB and the current British anthem is GSTQ, if that bothers them then don't offer yourself up for selection, wait for the Commonwealth games.

laurentian

I think I'm right in saying that, the number of labour/SDP etc seats won in Scotland at each general election mean that an independent Scotland would lead to a "permanent" Conservative government for the remainder of the UK.

I think I'm also right in saying it will never happen - Salmond and his ilk will be embarrassed at the result.

rolf_f

laurentian wrote:

I think I'm right in saying that, the number of labour/SDP etc seats won in Scotland at each general election mean that an independent Scotland would lead to a "permanent" Conservative government for the remainder of the UK.

Arguably the proposed reduction in the number of constituencies currently proposed might have the same effect but in practice I don't think it would work that way. We aren't really 'Conservative' or 'Labour' - we are change voters. No matter what you do with the constituencies (within reason) they will adapt to throw the incumbents out after two or three terms. That would be Salmonds problem if he did find himself PM of an independant Scotland. As it is, he is in charge yet not PM and can possibly sustain that for years. That wouldn't be the case if he was PM.

Ben6899

GiantMike wrote:

rodgers73 wrote:

I'm from Yorkshire and, as lovely as the place may be (with some exceptions - Bradford, Leeds, Castleford/Pontefract), it doesn't half bore me to tears to hear how some locals go on about how fantastic the place is etc.

Tedious parochialism...

I must disagree. I'm originally from London, have lived in Scotland, Lancashire, Wiltshire, Lincolnshire, N Wales and I've been to most of the UK. I now live in Yorkshire (and have for 18 months) and it's by far the best place I've ever lived. I'll move back when I retire, and probably bore anybody within earshot about how great the place is. Tedious, maybe. Parochial, no.

And lumping Ponte with Bradford, and separating it from Cas with nothing more than an oblique, is a heinous crime!

In all fairness, Ponte is largely a bit of a shithole. The Market Place architecture and history and the suburbs to the south and east are fine, but the rest... well.

(I'm a Ponte expat)

solosuperia

Just to revive this thread........
Alex Salmon and the SNP keep telling me that Scotland is going independent next year............ It is a done deal, just have to go through the rigamarole of having a referendum to make it official.
Fair play, if that is the way Scotland wants to go.
But hang on Dundee has put itself forward to become the "UK(I thought that meant United Kingdom!) City of Culture in 2017).
How does that work? They will have been part of an independent Scotland for two years.
I think the SNP need to get their house in order.

feltkuota

I can't take Salmond seriously. Every time I see him all I can think of is Shrek..

That aside I've got no problem with scotland voting for/against independence and genuinely don't understand why, if they did vote for independence, it would be the end of the UK/GB. Scotland would still be attached..

I reckon Shrek thought this was a great idea when all the Piigs countries were making merry with the Euro.

On a slightly more selfish note I would like some clarity regarding a Jock living/working in London for the past 30 odd years. If Scotland does gain independence then, if what we see/hear is to be believed they will not immediately form part of the EU. What does that mean for me ie will I then have to have a visa to work/live here or change my nationality to, can't quite come to terms with this part, English? Where would I pay my taxes as I'm not resident in Scotland I don't get the vote so it would seem more than a bit wrong if my hard earned hard to travel north for an independent country I had no say in.

TheCoo'sTail

Fear not, it won't happen. I'd be surprised if we get more than 40% voting for it. I'm all for it if we were to become truly independent like Norway for instance. I don't really see the point in swapping "one jailer for another". As for Salmond? The man is a complete chump. His treatment and abandonment of HIS citizens on the Menie Estate outside Aberdeen was deplorable IMO. He should have protected those people instead of selling the land from under them to his one time mate Donald Trump. It was like the Highland Clearences all over again, except this time the people were replaced with lambs wool jumpers instead of sheep. Rant over! ;-)

Doctor House

I'd like to think that I have a fairly diverse group of friends - males and females, working class and middle class, ranging from unemployed to company directors, public sector and many different private sector industries. Only 2 of them are for independence - my mum and her partner. They are both ex public sector, enjoying reasonably good final salary pensions and having retired early, both long stranding and very active members of SNP. When they preach on about the reasons for Independence there's a pretty clear pattern of reference back to the 80's and 90's.

Also, I think that it shouldn't be referred to as the YES campaign. Surely it should be known as the AYE campaign.

ballysmate

So a Gallup poll would have Ayes, Naes and Dinnae kens. Quite like it.