OT - Moving Down Under (Sydney)

richVSrich

Evening all!

Well I've decided to jump whilst I still can...

I'm heading out of London beginning of sept and taking a few weeks detour before getting to sydney beginning of october..

So anyone got any tips for Sydney? I am looking for work (working-holiday visa) and spoken to a couple of agencies (i'm in engineering btw)..but if anyone has any tips that would be most appreciated!

And not just limited to work...I have been to Sydney once, 5 years ago for just over a week... but any suggestions are welcome...also maybe a similar forum for downunder? Keep the SCR going...am tempted to get a Team GB jersey

Thanks in advance! Have bumped in to a few of you along embankment - I'm going to miss London...

daviesee

Engineering manufacture or engineering design?

I ask as there appears to be loads of opportunities in Perth for design and project engineering. Not heard so much about Sydney.

SimonAH

You lucky, lucky guy. At 41 I was told that I was too old to meet the selection criteria. Sling one on the barbie for me mate.

itboffin

I assume you've been to Auz before?

cjcp

It's expensive, so find a job quickly.

How many people in Oz? 19-20m? Aren't there that many people (or thereabouts) in SE England?

Would be a great opportunity. Good luck!

cyclingprop

You NEEEEEED a Team GB jersey. And probably a T debating the relative benefits of Pendleton and Mears.

optimisticbiker

Having just (well April) come back from Oz - I was there for 6 weeks after visiting my son in Melbourne - I can tell you it is an incredibly amazing and beautiful place but also incredibly expensive and frustrating... everything is 50% more than here (probably even worse now), Oz TV is crap (worse than US - my son watches BBC online through a UK proxy) and nothing is free (credit cards/bank cards cost 200AU$ pa) and don't even think about getting a speed ticket.. thats at least 312AU$ (£200)... Another observation is that that once out of the major city centres its more like 1950's smalltown US so don't expect to pop along to the local shopping mall like Brent X or Westfield. They do exist but are rare. 100Mbit broadband in main cities is common, but outside that its wire speed and online shopping/services are still a long way behind the UK - no Amazon for instance.

My son rents a reasonable 3 bed house in Melbourne in a 'nice' area - its value is about 1.5million AU$ and costs 700AU$ pm to rent... from what he tells me rents are about double what they are in the UK but you have to go much further out from the city centre to get into affordable territory. Thats even worse in Sydney because of the geography and the mountains that surround it, so depending on where you work, long commutes by car (which are expensive even secondhand) are common (more so than UK). Talking to the locals I learnt that the transport network in Sydney is pretty dire; there is plenty of it from some areas and none from others, meaning traffic is abysmal, and there is little transport strategy so you can't get one ticket to cover all modes like you can in London. Can't comment much on the work situation, but my son is in transport planning and there's stacks of rail/PT development going on in both Melbourne and Sydney, so I guess there'll be follow on engineering/building/etc work.

If the lifestyle there suits you and you can overcome the obstacles, its a great place to live, though I prefered Melbourne to Sydney, more easy going, Sydney was all a bit brash IMHO. But you know what, despite all its issues, I would still live in London.

Headhuunter

OptimisticBiker wrote:

Having just (well April) come back from Oz - I was there for 6 weeks after visiting my son in Melbourne - I can tell you it is an incredibly amazing and beautiful place but also incredibly expensive and frustrating... everything is 50% more than here (probably even worse now), Oz TV is crap (worse than US - my son watches BBC online through a UK proxy) and nothing is free (credit cards/bank cards cost 200AU$ pa) and don't even think about getting a speed ticket.. thats at least 312AU$ (£200)... Another observation is that that once out of the major city centres its more like 1950's smalltown US so don't expect to pop along to the local shopping mall like Brent X or Westfield. They do exist but are rare. 100Mbit broadband in main cities is common, but outside that its wire speed and online shopping/services are still a long way behind the UK - no Amazon for instance.

My son rents a reasonable 3 bed house in Melbourne in a 'nice' area - its value is about 1.5million AU$ and costs 700AU$ pm to rent... from what he tells me rents are about double what they are in the UK but you have to go much further out from the city centre to get into affordable territory. Thats even worse in Sydney because of the geography and the mountains that surround it, so depending on where you work, long commutes by car (which are expensive even secondhand) are common (more so than UK). Talking to the locals I learnt that the transport network in Sydney is pretty dire; there is plenty of it from some areas and none from others, meaning traffic is abysmal, and there is little transport strategy so you can't get one ticket to cover all modes like you can in London. Can't comment much on the work situation, but my son is in transport planning and there's stacks of rail/PT development going on in both Melbourne and Sydney, so I guess there'll be follow on engineering/building/etc work.

If the lifestyle there suits you and you can overcome the obstacles, its a great place to live, though I prefered Melbourne to Sydney, more easy going, Sydney was all a bit brash IMHO. But you know what, despite all its issues, I would still live in London.

Yes, I've heard all these things about living in Oz... I've been to Sydney and Melbourne and we have quite a few friends in Melbourne, also my OH seems to think that if we got married then he could take me to Oz and we'd both have visas to work there as his sister lives there and is married to an Australian. I haven't looked into this but he seems certain.

We have toyed with the idea but quite frankly I think I'd prefer to live in Europe. Although Australia is lovely, it's not all sun and BBQs, I've heard from quite a few people that particularly in Sydney to get anything vaguely affordable you have to live miles and miles from the centre of town and put up with very long daily commutes by car in and out and as mentioned, Australia, particularly Sydney is VERY expensive. Not sure what Perth is like, a friend of a friend went out there a while back for a holiday, he loved it so much he eventually moved there for good. I've never been to Adelaide but a friend of mine described it as being like Milton Keynes!

Another prob with Oz is that it's sooooo far away from anywhere else, particularly Perth. In the UK you are a stones through away from mainland Europe with so many travel destinations and fantastic cultural experiences. In Oz you're at least 6 hours flight away from anywhere outside Australia. My Australian friends in London always go absolutely mental on the Ryanair and Easy Jet flights - they literally fly out to Europe every weekend because they've never experienced anything like being literally a couple of hours flight from Spain, France, Italy, Germany etc etc.

Don't want to put a dampner on everything - I'm sure it would be fantastic if you could get it to work for you but I don't think it's as easy as it's made out....

daviesee

Whats all this commuting by car nonsense?
This is the Commuting section after all.

Is cycle commuting outlawed or that dangerous?
I am sure the OP would like to know.

Headhuunter

daviesee wrote:

Whats all this commuting by car nonsense?
This is the Commuting section after all.

Is cycle commuting outlawed or that dangerous?
I am sure the OP would like to know.

I should think it's possible to commute by bike if you like close enough to your workplace but I think it's fairly common to live 30+ miles away from central Sydney and drive in and out along dual carriageway/freeway type affairs. The suburbs of Australian cities spread for miles because every house is detached, has half an acre or so of land and a pool etc which means that there are literally miles and miles of suburban houses. I think it's like living in the US, cycling is unusual and driving to and from major shopping malls/hypermarkets to get your shopping is common. I read somewhere that Melbourne is 1 of the biggest cities in the world by land area, simply because the suburbs sprawl for miles....

daviesee

Sounds too much like America for me.

Headhuunter

daviesee wrote:

Sounds too much like America for me.

Yes, I think in terms of city structure, transport and lifestyle in terms of how things work etc, it is very much like the US but in terms of culture sense of humour etc, the Australians have a lot in common with us....

rick_chasey

Headhuunter wrote:

daviesee wrote:

Sounds too much like America for me.

Yes, I think in terms of city structure, transport and lifestyle in terms of how things work etc, it is very much like the US but in terms of culture sense of humour etc, the Australians have a lot in common with us....

[ignorant and barely relevant comment] I've often wondered why people would travel literally across the world to end up at a place which is culturally pretty similar, let alone the same language! [/ignorant and barely relevant comment]

adskis

I've lived and worked (and commuted) in Sydney.
It is a very big city. Saying that, I don't know of many engineers that worked in the Sydney CBD (inner city). Mostly jobs in central Sydney are corporate office types, bankers, lawyers, accountants, etc... (and a surprising amount of retail shopping.) Depending on the branch of engineering you specialise in, you could get work anywhere across the city. There are sort of 'satellite-city areas' within Sydney, (Chatswood, Parramatta, North-Sydney/Crows Nest, Penrith, Cambletown, etc.) and none of these are part of the inner-city. Some of these places are more desirable places to live than others and the rents reflect that. Depending on where you get work, you could then think about where you want to live, and then the possible commute.
I still have contacts in Sydney and, depending on your field, might be able to hook you up.
PM me if you are interested.
Ad.

optimisticbiker

daviesee wrote:

Whats all this commuting by car nonsense?
This is the Commuting section after all.

Is cycle commuting outlawed or that dangerous?
I am sure the OP would like to know.

As it happens both my son and daughter-in-law commute by bike as they live 20min by bike from his central Melbourne work place and 30min from her 'out of centre' research institute. But that's only because he is on secondment for 3y so his company pay towards their rent. If he was renting at full cost he'd be 25miles away and commuting by train. The cycling infrastructure in both Melbourne and Sydney city centres is relatively undeveloped and, from what I saw, is on a par with London, tho most of the main city streets are much wider due to their relatively young age. Outside the immediate city centre there are often good cycle lanes in some very nice surroundings and a lot of people do use them. Bikes are certainly very popular ways to get to the beach or the communal barbie and fit well with the the cafe/coffee culture that has evolved there... even the smallest town appears to have 2 or 3 coffee shops with outdoor seating...

blkmcs

If you want to commute by bike then move to Perth, it has the climate and the bike paths.

However if you are stuck on Sydney then you'll find lots of advice on http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewforum.php?f=13

aeon

yes, it's completely sh!t, you'll have an awful time. i can't imagine why you'd want to move. you could be here, burying yourself along embankment in the p!ssing rain, covered in road filth, enjoying 6.5 bloodless hours of 'daytime' and a further decade of festering austerity... you poor, misguided soul.

Tricycleboy

aeon wrote:

yes, it's completely sh!t, you'll have an awful time. i can't imagine why you'd want to move. you could be here, burying yourself along embankment in the p!ssing rain, covered in road filth, enjoying 6.5 bloodless hours of 'daytime' and a further decade of festering austerity... you poor, misguided soul.

Well said that man.

i'd be there already if the other half would hurry the feck up and sort herself out. Still have no idea why my office is full of antipodeans- must be masochsits.

optimisticbiker

aeon wrote:

yes, it's completely sh!t, you'll have an awful time. i can't imagine why you'd want to move. you could be here, burying yourself along embankment in the p!ssing rain, covered in road filth, enjoying 6.5 bloodless hours of 'daytime' and a further decade of festering austerity... you poor, misguided soul.

LOL, well it can be just as wet there as here, and as for the austerity, things aren't so great there either. If you've watched those 'Wanted down under' programs on daytime TV you'll see that those made after 2009 are increasingly finding the the houses aren't as great as made out unless you go for long commutes and the cost of living is getting higher all the time faster than it is here... its all relative though. There are still opportunities for the right people in the right jobs....

Headhuunter

Yeah to some extent it probably depends on what field you work in... If you're in a high demand sector and can get a well paid job then you'll be fine... I'm sure it'll be fantastic living out there but I would definitely look into it properly before heading out, I think a lot of people in the UK think of Australia as some kind of magical laid back paradise where you work 10 mins walk from home, finish in the early afternoon and spend the rest of the day having a barbie on the beach watching the sun go down after a spot of surfing...

daviesee

Headhuunter wrote:

Yeah to some extent it probably depends on what field you work in... If you're in a high demand sector and can get a well paid job then you'll be fine... I'm sure it'll be fantastic living out there but I would definitely look into it properly before heading out, I think a lot of people in the UK think of Australia as some kind of magical laid back paradise where you work 10 mins walk from home, finish in the early afternoon and spend the rest of the day having a barbie on the beach watching the sun go down after a spot of surfing...

Friend of mine moved to Perth for 2 years, 12 years ago.
Now has a detached bungalow with swimming pool, 5 minute walk from the beach. He finishes work at 3 so he can go surfing in the late afternoon/evening.
It is a 20 minute drive from work so commutable by bike but he has a Porsche. And a yacht.
Wonder why he never came back?

This lucky bar steward's only qualifications are an HNC and an engineering apprenticeship. When we started working together in '92 we were on 14k. Don't begrudge him one little bit.

Headhuunter

daviesee wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Yeah to some extent it probably depends on what field you work in... If you're in a high demand sector and can get a well paid job then you'll be fine... I'm sure it'll be fantastic living out there but I would definitely look into it properly before heading out, I think a lot of people in the UK think of Australia as some kind of magical laid back paradise where you work 10 mins walk from home, finish in the early afternoon and spend the rest of the day having a barbie on the beach watching the sun go down after a spot of surfing...

Friend of mine moved to Perth for 2 years, 12 years ago.
Now has a detached bungalow with swimming pool, 5 minute walk from the beach. He finishes work at 3 so he can go surfing in the late afternoon/evening.
It is a 20 minute drive from work so commutable by bike but he has a Porsche. And a yacht.
Wonder why he never came back?

This lucky bar steward's only qualifications are an HNC and an engineering apprenticeship. When we started working together in '92 we were on 14k. Don't begrudge him one little bit.

...But he hasn't got a bike and he doesn't get to do SCR on Emabnkment...

aeon

i suppose i should state for the record that i'm an australian from sydney...

everyone's right to point out a few things about australia: that cities are done on different scale there, with implications for your lifestyle; that the cost of living is high and rising; that the economy isn't uniformly blossoming; and that moving somewhere to work is completely different from a perma-holiday travel brochure ideal.

but it's worth keeping things in perspective. you're still moving to one of the world's top five most livable cities, according to the Economist. you’re close to world-class beaches and national parks; the food and drink scene is fantastic; there’s more going on culturally now than there was even a decade ago; and the city has that beautiful backdrop. as Bill Bryson said, there are few better places in the world to find yourself on a sunny morning than on one of the Harbour’s many edges.

sure, the economy is pretty strongly tied to asian demand for resources, but it's still just about the best performing advanced economy in the the world, with unemployment at 5%, and GDP growth projected at 3%.

and yes, it’s expensive. but hey, we live in London, for feck’s sake. it’s really not cheap here – particularly if you’re renting, or looking to buy (hah!). provided you’re on a half-decent wage, you won’t be banished to a tin shack five hours from the city centre… you really won’t. there are options out there, and domain.com.au or similar is probably a good place to start. the upside of lots of suburban houses having a garden and a pool is that, well, you have a garden and a pool.

nor are the public transport connections quite as bad as they’re made out to be. i used to live in a part of surrey, just 40 mins from the heart of London, where trains stopped at 11pm on a weekend, and if you didn’t have a car you had to walk home because there were no buses. it was proper primitive, yet on a good day you could see crystal palace.

so yeah, the way the cities there are built mean that your home might be different, and transport may take up more of your time – depending on where you work and choose to live. but it’s just one of those things to think about, a compromise that you make, just as you have to compromise if you want to live in zone 3, for example.

the cost of living is high, but I pay my local authority nearly $450 aussie dollars a month and they don’t have the ‘resources’ to fix the potholes in my road. i live 35 mins from London on the train, and I can’t get above 1.5mb broadband because the wires from my local exchange appear to be made out of stone, and won’t be upgraded till 2015. also bear in mind that a lot of the outdoor lifestyle things that make Australia so attractive are available fairly cheaply. we lived in the suburbs but for half the price of a travelcard could visit some of the most beautiful beaches in the world, or go trekking in national parks, or climbing in ancient mountain ranges…

the distance thing – and the cost of visiting other places – is a factor. but Australia’s relative isolation should be balanced with proximity to Asia, the pacific, and of course the vastnesses of the country itself.

you *will* feel further away from friends and family thanks to the timezone and cost of travel… but it doesn't sound like the OP is permanently emigrating and taking a young family with them, so as long as they go in with eyes open they’ll be fine.

i guess that’s probably the point of this thread, though… and it’s important that you do get the full range of opinions. it’s just that reading the thread, i was concerned you’d get the wrong impression of what remains a bloody fantastic place to live

clarkey cat

its full of Ozzies

adskis

Speaking of the OP...

Did we say something to offend him?

Headhuunter

aeon wrote:

i suppose i should state for the record that i'm an australian from sydney...

everyone's right to point out a few things about australia: that cities are done on different scale there, with implications for your lifestyle; that the cost of living is high and rising; that the economy isn't uniformly blossoming; and that moving somewhere to work is completely different from a perma-holiday travel brochure ideal.

but it's worth keeping things in perspective. you're still moving to one of the world's top five most livable cities, according to the Economist. you’re close to world-class beaches and national parks; the food and drink scene is fantastic; there’s more going on culturally now than there was even a decade ago; and the city has that beautiful backdrop. as Bill Bryson said, there are few better places in the world to find yourself on a sunny morning than on one of the Harbour’s many edges.

sure, the economy is pretty strongly tied to asian demand for resources, but it's still just about the best performing advanced economy in the the world, with unemployment at 5%, and GDP growth projected at 3%.

and yes, it’s expensive. but hey, we live in London, for feck’s sake. it’s really not cheap here – particularly if you’re renting, or looking to buy (hah!). provided you’re on a half-decent wage, you won’t be banished to a tin shack five hours from the city centre… you really won’t. there are options out there, and domain.com.au or similar is probably a good place to start. the upside of lots of suburban houses having a garden and a pool is that, well, you have a garden and a pool.

nor are the public transport connections quite as bad as they’re made out to be. i used to live in a part of surrey, just 40 mins from the heart of London, where trains stopped at 11pm on a weekend, and if you didn’t have a car you had to walk home because there were no buses. it was proper primitive, yet on a good day you could see crystal palace.

so yeah, the way the cities there are built mean that your home might be different, and transport may take up more of your time – depending on where you work and choose to live. but it’s just one of those things to think about, a compromise that you make, just as you have to compromise if you want to live in zone 3, for example.

the cost of living is high, but I pay my local authority nearly $450 aussie dollars a month and they don’t have the ‘resources’ to fix the potholes in my road. i live 35 mins from London on the train, and I can’t get above 1.5mb broadband because the wires from my local exchange appear to be made out of stone, and won’t be upgraded till 2015. also bear in mind that a lot of the outdoor lifestyle things that make Australia so attractive are available fairly cheaply. we lived in the suburbs but for half the price of a travelcard could visit some of the most beautiful beaches in the world, or go trekking in national parks, or climbing in ancient mountain ranges…

the distance thing – and the cost of visiting other places – is a factor. but Australia’s relative isolation should be balanced with proximity to Asia, the pacific, and of course the vastnesses of the country itself.

you *will* feel further away from friends and family thanks to the timezone and cost of travel… but it doesn't sound like the OP is permanently emigrating and taking a young family with them, so as long as they go in with eyes open they’ll be fine.

i guess that’s probably the point of this thread, though… and it’s important that you do get the full range of opinions. it’s just that reading the thread, i was concerned you’d get the wrong impression of what remains a bloody fantastic place to live

Well I guess you're the expert! Melbourne and Sydney were both good to visit, particularly Sydney. The 1st week I was there I had awful jetlag and I used to wake up at about 4 or 5am local time and go for a run through the botanical gardens along the water's edge with the squawking Cockatiels and fruit bats flapping around, that was very cool... If I lived in Sydney, I would love to live close to the water in the centre somewhere but I shouldn't think I would be able to afford that... I'm not sure I would be happy living in the middle of a suburban sprawl though, albeit with a pool and a large garden. For me it's more important to be relatively close to all the action and culture of the centre of the city, knowing I can jump on a train or on the bike and be somewhere in less than half an hour. I don't really care about the pool and large expanse of grass round the house...

aeon

i really wouldn't claim to be an expert...! i just wanted to throw another opinion into the mix, because i don't think the OP would necessarily have to live miles away and commute by car. it comes down to the kind of life you want and the flexibility you have to choose it. if you have a reasonable wage and fewer limiting factors (i.e. not having to look for a certain size home because of family) then i think you have a fair amount of choice, you just have to compromise. like anywhere.

noodles71

Why Sydney!!!! I'd rather live in London than Sydney. Sure it has good weather compared to here but it is so damn expensive and people don't care about their neighbours anywhere near as much as they do in other parts of the country. Can of Coke in an equivalent "Costcutters" in Sydney (7Eleven) is just short of $3 (£2) maybe even more now. A suburban KFC burger meal will set you back more than a pasta dish on a 400 year old terrace on Lake Garda. A chicken fried rice is just short of $20 and bottles of beer out and about in pubs are pushing the $9-$10 mark now. Most Aussies BBQ it with mates buying a box of coldies(24 bottles or 30 cans) for around $50. Cans are 375ml there too and not pint sized like over here. To be fair on the rest of the country though they are not a hell of a lot cheaper than Sydney. Fish and chips in Cooktown (as far north on the east coast the tarmac goes) will set you back just short of $50 for 3 people and it comes right off the trawler there although they can profitably sell you a can of drink up there for $2.

You should head up to Queensland or over to WA if you are from an Engineering background. Only the mining and related industries are doing well there at the moment and they don't mine in Sydney or Melbourne. The climate is much better, people much more friendlier and you won't have to spend hours commuting every day. If you think that the UK is an inconsiderate place for cycling then you will be blown away by the Aussies and the wankers who drive like cyclists belong on the pavements. Mind you, it isn't illegal there to ride on the pavement although some places you have to wear a "stack hat". Don't get caught cycling after 2 beers as you will be done as badly as you would had you been driving a car.

Agent57

aeon wrote:

but hey, we live in London, for feck’s sake.

Do we? FFS, if I'd known I'd have gone to those there Limpics!

Stone Glider

My daughter is Australian and lives in Sydney with her Kiwi husband and my two grandsons. We visit pretty much every year and have noticed how the costs of living have risen in the past few years. If the O P hopes to realize a full life in Oz he will need a well paid job. There are plenty of them out there if you have the right skills. Make sure that you are obtaining the best possible 'rate for the job'.

It is a wonderful country but not 'a bed of roses', in my experience, Aussies work hard/play hard and can be utterly ruthless in dealing with anyone falling short of expectations.

richVSrich

WOW!! People! Thank you so much for all your replies! Amazing..I need to read them all properly tomorrow I think..

Adskis asked where the OP was...sorry was enjoying the fun and games out in east london! hehehe

Well to clarify..I am a civil engineer, and I am aiming Sydney firstly because I have friends there, it seems more fun from what I've heard of Perth or Brisbane..and I'm not thinking it will be permanent..see how it goes I guess...for all the failings, London and England is pretty lovely..I will miss it!

I have looked into rent (houseshares etc)...yes I do realise it is expensive...I'm hoping I do get a job that balances it out a bit..I as toying with the Eastern Suburbs...living near a beach does sound amazing) and house share prices while do seem more expensive, dont seem massively so compared to London.

Also my parents live in South East Asia, so I will be half as close to them as I am now, so leaving family behind in the UK is not an issue...

Will have to read through them again in detail tomorrow...thanks everyone...keep the info coming...