Group riding etiquette

Dartmooron

I hope this is the right place to post this question.
I occasionally ride with a local club, this club has got much bigger over the years and on a recent ride I was surprised by the lack of respect for motorists. What bothered me was the group of 20+ riders was strung out over several hundred meters leaving no gaps for cars to get past. This is a main road and the drivers behind the group were getting a bit frustrated but none of the senior members seemed to care. Then a few days ago I was in a car trying to pass a similar group of cyclists we hung back for some time but no consideration was shown towards us when my wife decides to overtake (gently) we had to pull back into the group to avoid an oncoming car as we finished overtaking this group we were glared at by some of the riders. I am not an experienced group rider and wondered what the normal etiquette for this sort of situation is.

P_Tucker

In general, groups of cyclists on the road are utter c**ts

jgsi

Dartmooron wrote:

I hope this is the right place to post this question.
I occasionally ride with a local club, this club has got much bigger over the years and on a recent ride I was surprised by the lack of respect for motorists. What bothered me was the group of 20+ riders was strung out over several hundred meters leaving no gaps for cars to get past. This is a main road and the drivers behind the group were getting a bit frustrated but none of the senior members seemed to care. Then a few days ago I was in a car trying to pass a similar group of cyclists we hung back for some time but no consideration was shown towards us when my wife decides to overtake (gently) we had to pull back into the group to avoid an oncoming car as we finished overtaking this group we were glared at by some of the riders. I am not an experienced group rider and wondered what the normal etiquette for this sort of situation is.

You didnt offer a 'sticky bottle' hence the glaring.

ShutUpLegs

It sucks to be harassed by assholes in cars while you’re on a bike. It also sucks to drive behind assholes on bikes.

Gizmodo

Having just started riding with a club I've wondered this as well. I've only ridden in groups of about 12, but if there are cars having problems overtaking someone at the front will normally start waving traffic past because they can see around the corner before the car can.

I keep thinking, what would a car do if we were a tractor towing a trailer? They would have to be patient.

But a group of 20 strung out! I can see why any motorist would get p..... fed up.

Velonutter

If it was our club then the riders abusing the road would get a rollicking.

Often we go out with 30-40 riders, but a quick check with the leaders of the groups splits it into 2 manageable groups.

I followed some riders in the 2011 Shropshire Challenge and some of them were absolute assholes, riding 5-6 abreast and then swearing when traffic wouldn't let them through.

The main offenders were a club down in Ludlow, they acted like they owned the road, when I wrote to their secretary there was no response, not surprising.

Have copied part of the email I sent: -

"About halfway round I came across a reasonable sized group of riders of which a good number were wearing your club shirts, sadly I don’t think they did your club any favours, I truly would have been ashamed to be grouped with them. On a number of very wide country lanes where you could have got four cars down side by side, they obliterated the road riding 5-6 riders wide with no consideration for people behind and then when an irate car driver came from the other way they chose to two finger and shout at him and then still carried on riding 5-6 people apart is it any wonder some of us get blamed for other cyclists selfish actions!"

Yep we can be our own worse enemies with traffic. :roll: :shock:

schlepcycling

Dartmooron wrote:

I hope this is the right place to post this question.
I occasionally ride with a local club, this club has got much bigger over the years and on a recent ride I was surprised by the lack of respect for motorists. What bothered me was the group of 20+ riders was strung out over several hundred meters leaving no gaps for cars to get past. This is a main road and the drivers behind the group were getting a bit frustrated but none of the senior members seemed to care. Then a few days ago I was in a car trying to pass a similar group of cyclists we hung back for some time but no consideration was shown towards us when my wife decides to overtake (gently) we had to pull back into the group to avoid an oncoming car as we finished overtaking this group we were glared at by some of the riders. I am not an experienced group rider and wondered what the normal etiquette for this sort of situation is.

What lack of respect do you thing was being shown?, what were you expecting them to do?, you say that the group of 20+ riders were strung out to which I assume you mean in single file, so the only thing they could have done presumably is either stop or pull off the road to allow the cars to pass. As the overtaker it's your responsibility to make sure that you can overtake safely whether that's horses, cyclists or other cars, so if you have to wait then wait it won't kill you.

t4tomo

schlepcycling wrote:

What lack of respect do you thing was being shown?, what were you expecting them to do?, .

Errrrrr split into a couple of smlaller groups with a gap in the middle, so car drivers have 2 smaller groups to negotiate individually (equiv of passing a slow car) rather than trying to pass the eqivalent length of a convey of low loaders.

t.m.h.n.e.t

t4tomo wrote:

schlepcycling wrote:

What lack of respect do you thing was being shown?, what were you expecting them to do?, .

Errrrrr split into a couple of smlaller groups with a gap in the middle, so car drivers have 2 smaller groups to negotiate individually (equiv of passing a slow car) rather than trying to pass the eqivalent length of a convey of low loaders.

And why would they do that exactly?

Mark Elvin

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:

t4tomo wrote:

schlepcycling wrote:

What lack of respect do you thing was being shown?, what were you expecting them to do?, .

Errrrrr split into a couple of smlaller groups with a gap in the middle, so car drivers have 2 smaller groups to negotiate individually (equiv of passing a slow car) rather than trying to pass the eqivalent length of a convey of low loaders.

And why would they do that exactly?

I'm guessing just to show some (hopefully mutual) respect to other roads users, not rocket science is it?

dubcat

In consideration of other road users to allow those road users to overtake your big ass pelaton a bit at a time.

amaferanga

Riding back from a race yesterday I got stuck behind Fryer Tuck's burger van that for some reason was only doing about 15mph. I was 3 back from the burger van, but a queue quickly built up behind me of up to about a dozen cars, all being held up by Fryer Tuck. What struck me was just how patient people were being. Had it been me at the front of the queue on my bike then folk would have been squeezing past without any hesitation whether it was safe or not, but they all seemed happy (?) or at least prepared to wait for a few minutes to get past safely.

So while I wouldn't condone cyclists intentionally holding up traffic, that group of cyclists had every right to be there and other road users should be prepared to wait a few minutes to pass safely. In the same way that they would do to pass Fryer Tuck's burger van or a tractor or even that lorry on an A-road doing 45mph. If your wife couldn't be sure that she'd get past all of the cyclists safely then she shouldn't have overtaken. Would she have overtaken a lorry on an A road if she thought there was a chance she'd only get half way before encountering oncoming traffic? Of course not.

amaferanga

Dubcat wrote:

In consideration of other road users to allow those road users to overtake your big ass peloton a bit at a time.

See my post above. Motorists in general are ridiculously impatient when it comes to passing groups of cyclists. While there are knobbers on bikes, most clubs will make an effort to let motorists past when its safe and convenient. They don't have to immediately give way. How many times do you see queues of dozens of cars behind a tractor or a lorry or a caravan?

dubcat

So just because drivers are impatient that means we should be inconsiderate too? I don't understand your logic. What is the negative side of a large group splitting in to two i.e. inserts a gap in the middle to allow cars to overtake in two stages? It costs nothing to be considerate as far as I can tell... However, I have never been out on a group ride so maybe I am missing something.

schlepcycling

Dubcat wrote:

So just because drivers are impatient that means we should be inconsiderate too? I don't understand your logic. What is the negative side of a large group splitting in to two i.e. inserts a gap in the middle to allow cars to overtake in two stages? It costs nothing to be considerate as far as I can tell... However, I have never been out on a group ride so maybe I am missing something.

Where and how would they organise this split?, what constitutes a safe number for the car to pass?. I know clubs use the 'car up' and 'car back' system but that's usually done when groups are riding 2 or more abreast. Also this scenario is likely to happen many times in a typical Sunday group ride so the riders would be forever splitting and rejoining. As has already been pointed out cars have to wait to pass slower cars, lorries, tractors etc so why not wait to pass cyclists, I just don't think cycling in a line is disrespectful.

Pross

Dartmooron wrote:

I hope this is the right place to post this question.
I occasionally ride with a local club, this club has got much bigger over the years and on a recent ride I was surprised by the lack of respect for motorists. What bothered me was the group of 20+ riders was strung out over several hundred meters leaving no gaps for cars to get past. This is a main road and the drivers behind the group were getting a bit frustrated but none of the senior members seemed to care. Then a few days ago I was in a car trying to pass a similar group of cyclists we hung back for some time but no consideration was shown towards us when my wife decides to overtake (gently) we had to pull back into the group to avoid an oncoming car as we finished overtaking this group we were glared at by some of the riders. I am not an experienced group rider and wondered what the normal etiquette for this sort of situation is.

I can't think why! It's up to the overtaking vehicle to ensure they can see far enough to overtake safely. You wouldn't overtake an artic and cut in between the truck and trailer. Also, if you committ to overtake then overtake - overtaking gently is just pointless.

That said, if 20 odd riders are strung over several hundred metres they need to learn how to ride in a group! There shouldn't be more than a wheel between bikes. Wheel to wheel, shoulder to shoulder and single out if it really helps. I certainly wouldn't advocate leaving gaps to encourage drivers to play leap frog though. If a group is that big to need it then break it down into a couple of rides. Unfortunately group riding skills seem to be deteriorating badly.

dubcat

I stand corrected

amaferanga

Dubcat wrote:

So just because drivers are impatient that means we should be inconsiderate too? I don't understand your logic. What is the negative side of a large group splitting in to two i.e. inserts a gap in the middle to allow cars to overtake in two stages? It costs nothing to be considerate as far as I can tell... However, I have never been out on a group ride so maybe I am missing something.

Without knowing the road that they were on its hard to say what the cyclists were up to, but perhaps they knew it wasn't safe to pass there and were waiting until it was safe to organise themselves. So really we don't know if they were being inconsiderate at all. Like I said, most motorists are ridiculously impatient and don't give groups of cyclists time to organise themselves nor do they realise that sometimes its just not safe to pass. If the cyclists did start organising themselves then some motorists would see that as an invitation to overtake so if its unsafe to overtake then the best thing they can do is hold their position in the road. Unfortunately when cyclists do that many motorists think that they're deliberately holding up traffic and trying to piss people off. Usually though they're not doing that.

t.m.h.n.e.t

Pross wrote:

I can't think why! It's up to the overtaking vehicle to ensure they can see far enough to overtake safely. You wouldn't overtake an artic and cut in between the truck and trailer. Also, if you committ to overtake then overtake - overtaking gently is just pointless.

That said, if 20 odd riders are strung over several hundred metres they need to learn how to ride in a group! There shouldn't be more than a wheel between bikes. Wheel to wheel, shoulder to shoulder and single out if it really helps. I certainly wouldn't advocate leaving gaps to encourage drivers to play leap frog though. If a group is that big to need it then break it down into a couple of rides. Unfortunately group riding skills seem to be deteriorating badly.

This is pretty much everything.

blackhands

I've always been taught and have learned over 55 years riding with clubs/in groups or even alone that its better (safer) to have them in front of you than behind you. Mind you sometimes cyclists are their own worst enemies - had someone riding in a group in a sportive give me some abuse and tried to stop me coming past when I overtook him on my bike so I pulled back and switched him into a ditch.

ShutUpLegs

blackhands wrote:

had someone riding in a group in a sportive give me some abuse and tried to stop me coming past when I overtook him on my bike so I pulled back and switched him into a ditch.

What do you mean 'switched him into a ditch' :?:

Dartmooron

Thanks for the replies.

It sounds like well organised groups and clubs would organize gaps to help motorists pass. The circumstances for when we drove past a large group were that the group was spread out over 200-300 meters on twisty road that does not have 1/2 mile clear straits to overtake and if I had waited for them to turn off we would have had to follow them for 4miles as as we were all heading to the same destination.
I think I will stick to riding with small groups of friends or on my own as I think the local clubs have got to big for safe riding, but its nice that cycling has got so popular to have this sort of problem.

Ringo 68

ShutUpLegs wrote:

blackhands wrote:

had someone riding in a group in a sportive give me some abuse and tried to stop me coming past when I overtook him on my bike so I pulled back and switched him into a ditch.

What do you mean 'switched him into a ditch' :?:

I would like to know this too.

If it is what it sounds like then blackhands is a disgrace to cycling, whether he has 55 years experience or not.

Pross

Dartmooron wrote:

Thanks for the replies.

It sounds like well organised groups and clubs would organize gaps to help motorists pass. The circumstances for when we drove past a large group were that the group was spread out over 200-300 meters on twisty road that does not have 1/2 mile clear straits to overtake and if I had waited for them to turn off we would have had to follow them for 4miles as as we were all heading to the same destination.
I think I will stick to riding with small groups of friends or on my own as I think the local clubs have got to big for safe riding, but its nice that cycling has got so popular to have this sort of problem.

I think the leaving gaps to pass is a red herring on safety grounds, you don't want to encourage cars to overtake a part of your group and then cut in. I'm still struggling how to see that a group could be spread over 200 - 300 metres. It would take over 100 cyclists in single file to cover that ground in an organised group, sounds more like the sort of thing you get on a sportive or charity ride with lots of riders not riding as a group. As for groups being too big for safe riding - if done properly riding in a group should be far safer than riding alone IMHO.

Mikey23

I was in this position the other day with my first ride for a local club. The website blurb said there would be a slowest group and a slightly quicker group so I went in the expectation of going with that slowest group, learning some group riding skills and doing a distance and a pace that I was comfortable with. I get there and the two groups have been combined and are going at a quicker pace than anticipated meaning that I was trailing the back, struggling to keep up, and had riders protecting and encouraging me. Therefore the peloton was spread over quite a distance and had to constantly stop to regroup. Ok, no real probs and it worked ok, made me a little vulnerable. I got the impression that there were lots of opinionated people there who were mainly concerned about their own ridebut not many who were actually prepared to help

It seems to me that if cycling is going to increase in popularity and noobs are going to turn up in clubs, sometimes randomly, ill prepared and unfit then there is an increasing need for experienced riders to step up and take responsibility on club nights

Zoomer37

ShutUpLegs wrote:

blackhands wrote:

had someone riding in a group in a sportive give me some abuse and tried to stop me coming past when I overtook him on my bike so I pulled back and switched him into a ditch.

What do you mean 'switched him into a ditch' :?:

Black magic?

richh

Mikey23 wrote:

I was in this position the other day with my first ride for a local club. The website blurb said there would be a slowest group and a slightly quicker group so I went in the expectation of going with that slowest group, learning some group riding skills and doing a distance and a pace that I was comfortable with. I get there and the two groups have been combined and are going at a quicker pace than anticipated meaning that I was trailing the back, struggling to keep up, and had riders protecting and encouraging me. Therefore the peloton was spread over quite a distance and had to constantly stop to regroup. Ok, no real probs and it worked ok, made me a little vulnerable. I got the impression that there were lots of opinionated people there who were mainly concerned about their own ridebut not many who were actually prepared to help

It seems to me that if cycling is going to increase in popularity and noobs are going to turn up in clubs, sometimes randomly, ill prepared and unfit then there is an increasing need for experienced riders to step up and take responsibility on club nights

Completely agree, and exactly the same thing happened to me this weekend. Two groups were merged and even though I averaged nearly 18mph over two hours I was constantly off the back and often out of sight of the main group. Only once did the leader drop back to help me out (which was much appreciated) but for the rest of the time it was only because the main group eventually stopped did I catch up, except that as soon as I did they headed off again so I didn't get any rest and was straight off the back and out of sight once more.

It's fair enough if faster riders want to ride in a fast group but if two groups get merged it doesn't give a particularly good impression to newbies to effectively be left to ride on their own as the fast riders effectively continue at their fast pace. The new guys may as well have gone for a ride on their own in the first place rather than to be made to feel like they aren't good enough to participate or that they are inconveniencing other riders.

It was my first club ride and to be honest it's put me off going back. I'll probably give it another go but if it's the same next time I doubt I'll be back after that.

That said, I really did enjoy riding in a group at those times when I was a part of it, so perhaps it's just a case of finding the right club.

careful

Its all about people and their consideration/respect for others. Regardless of their mode of transport, bike, car, foot, some people are ignorant b*****rds and others are not. The standards also vary from one club to another in my experience. Personally I prefer to ride with clubs that have a policy of trying not to impede or annoy motorists any more than is necessary. Bikes and cars sharing the same tarmac is always goint to be a compromise but if we cant make it work then in the long term I suspect it will be the bikes that will be resricted to cycle paths etc.

Pross

careful wrote:

Its all about people and their consideration/respect for others. Regardless of their mode of transport, bike, car, foot, some people are ignorant b*****rds and others are not. The standards also vary from one club to another in my experience. Personally I prefer to ride with clubs that have a policy of trying not to impede or annoy motorists any more than is necessary. Bikes and cars sharing the same tarmac is always goint to be a compromise but if we cant make it work then in the long term I suspect it will be the bikes that will be resricted to cycle paths etc.

I've never come across a club that doesn't have that policy. No-one I know goes out to deliberately impede and annoy anyone. That's not the same as getting out of the way just because a motorist wants you to, cars get held up behind me when I'm riding solo and I wouldn't get anywhere if I moved over every time to let them pass.

WheelieBad

Riding in single file of 20 riders seems a inconsiderate tbh. Instead of equating it to a car sitting behind a tractor, it seems more like a car having to sit behind a convoy of 4 tractors. Yes, drivers should wait for a suitable place to over take but in reality on most roads (at least around my way) there aren't opportunities to over take that long a line. So inevitably cars will try and overtake or squeeze past and then pull in on top of the cyclists, which will just cause accidents. And squaring myself up against a car ain't something I'd look forward too...

t.m.h.n.e.t

WheelieBad wrote:

Riding in single file of 20 riders seems a inconsiderate tbh. Instead of equating it to a car sitting behind a tractor, it seems more like a car having to sit behind a convoy of 4 tractors. Yes, drivers should wait for a suitable place to over take but in reality on most roads (at least around my way) there aren't opportunities to over take that long a line. So inevitably cars will try and overtake or squeeze past and then pull in on top of the cyclists, which will just cause accidents. And squaring myself up against a car ain't something I'd look forward too...

Uhh the same thing could happen if you're solo or riding two abreast. Are we now at the stage where stopping entirely is the right thing to do?