Rider Down - New Kings Road / Wandsworth Bridge Road

rick_chasey

cjcp wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

okgo wrote:

Horrible.

Do we need these huge vehicles in central london during rush hour?

Often has this thought - especially on roads that aren't wide.

Think this was raised before. One potential problem - pointed out to me rather than made by me - was that you then have a larger number of lorries on the road during off peak hours, which may increase the risk to those on, eg, night shifts.

Ultimately it's a numbers game.

bails87

Green Brompton wrote:

She was on the inside of the lorry, and the lorry had only gone a few meters, so it looks as though she got caught as they were both pulling out from the lights.

We don't know if it was a case of the lorry catching up to her or her undertaking the lorry, which is the key thing.

Although we know from one of the other cases (Eilidh Cairns?) that the police aren't beyond assuming that it's the riders fault and he/she must have ridden up the inside.

It's worth repeating though (not saying the rider in this case did it) that you should never, ever ride up the left of a lorry at a junction. Just wait if you don't want to go round the outside.

raymondo60

None of us can comment on the individual circumstances of this horrific accident unless we were there and actually witnessed it, and of course all of us offer our sincere and distraught sympathies to the lady in question. Absolutely horrible. Looking at the photograph of the aftermath of the incident posted as a link in an entry above though, I can't help but question whether I, or any of us who would call ourselves 'experienced' cyclists, would have been in that position in relation to the lorry in those road conditions. We do have to accept that there are many different levels of cycling competency and awareness; I know that, every few weeks or so, I get a reasonably 'close-call' on my commute through South london, and have to tell myself to 'calm down' again and reassess the dangers of cycling on the roads. At no time, under any circumstances, would I ever ride up the inside of a lorry, or a panel van, or even a bus, even though I have at times been criticsized by riders behind me for 'holding them up'. it really is so dangerous out there; sometimes I think we forget that - incidents like this bring it home again in the most brutal and sad way.

pitchshifter

This is awful. Interesting that there are lots of mirrors on that lorry making the "didn't see you excuse" non-existent.

Lorry drivers don't want to kill cyclists and cyclists don't want to get killed by lorries. All it takes is a bit of common sense from both parties to avoid this situation. However that cycle lane literally invites you into the danger zone, whoever drew them plans should be sacked.

Sharkyssurfers

from reading that article, it seems to me that she might of come off her bike before being hit, in which the lorry would have no time to react, we are all to easy to blame one another when it could be a case of something spilled and the wheels went from under her.

veronese68

That's absolutely appalling. I won't make any judgement on thta case as we don't know the circumstance.
Having said that, I saw a very similar lorry driving along a road very near me (very narrow victorian residential streets) texting or dialling a number on his phone. Unfortunately I didn't get the registration number as I was riding along carrying a 3m length of conduit and had to dive inbetween two parked cars. I'm pretty sure he had just delivered the lovely new road surface to a road just around the corner from me.
Maybe I should try to contact Kingston Council?

rubertoe

bails87 wrote:

Green Brompton wrote:

She was on the inside of the lorry, and the lorry had only gone a few meters, so it looks as though she got caught as they were both pulling out from the lights.

We don't know if it was a case of the lorry catching up to her or her undertaking the lorry, which is the key thing.

Although we know from one of the other cases (Eilidh Cairns?) that the police aren't beyond assuming that it's the riders fault and he/she must have ridden up the inside.

It's worth repeating though (not saying the rider in this case did it) that you should never, ever ride up the left of a lorry at a junction. Just wait if you don't want to go round the outside.

+1

il_principe

Ian.B wrote:

It sounds from this as though she has lost her leg

http://www.fulhamchronicle.co.uk/fulham-and-hammersmith-news/local-fulham-and-hammersmith-news/2012/07/25/woman-cyclist-crushed-under-lorry-in-fulham-suffers-life-changing-injuries-82029-31469718/

Oh Christ, those pictures have left me feeing sick. F*cking tragic, poor woman, thank God she survived though.

To the people jumping to conclusions re lorries etc, we all know some riders do silly things, but we also know that plenty of motorists do as well and that's where the education is needed. I had a lorry swerve into the cycle lane at Vauxhall a while back, he passed me and then began encroaching, came very close to taking me under the wheels. Pretty much the scariest thing that's ever happened to me. There's little you can do in these circumstances, especially if there are railings in place. So enough of the victim blaming please. Lorry drivers are professionals, they should be constantly vigilant especially at junctions in busy cities like London, there is absolutely no excuse for them running anyone over, ever.

DonDaddyD

Do we need these huge vehicles in central london during rush hour?

I have often thought the same.

okgo wrote:

Having said all that, I still think some sort of test for rider proficiency should be put in place. Lets forget about this incident for a second and what actually happened. Would anyone on here even dream of going up the inside of the truck in that picture?

It's still too easy to say. I was on the inside headinding towards Tooting Broadway tube. This stretch of road slightly bends where there are a set of traffic lights. As I passed through the green lights a HGV attempts to overtake me giving absolutely no space. As I new the road bends slightly and there was a trailer behind me I could do nothing but stick my bike as far left as possible and close my eyes and hope. As far as I was concerned I was going under.

I've also been in situations where I've waited behind a vehicle (stopped at lights) and had another vehicle pull up beside/behind me/next to me in the other lane. Lights go green and they either swerve around me or go with me. I've been in scenarios where they've gone straight or cut across turning left. Again that's a going under/over situation. It's my experience and cautiousness that makes me wait, lean my bike towards the curb that has helped me avoid situations.

We don't know where she was positioned at the junction, we don't know who arrived first and who did what.

Having said all that, I still think some sort of test for rider proficiency should be put in place.

Yes, but how about tourists coming to the capital and jumping on a Boris Bike?

I think drivers need to be made aware that if a cyclist is at the lights and is beside or infront of them - but to the left/right - then they should wait for the cyclist to go before they move off.

I think we need more ASLs. I would be happy if every lights with an ASL had a camera and any car that enters and stops on the ASL (mopeds, motorcycles etc included) with no good reason to do so (emergency vehicle) gets a fine.

I think drivers need to be made aware that cyclists shouldn't be forced to ride on the left and are infact entitled to use primary.

bails87

Il Principe wrote:

Ian.B wrote:

It sounds from this as though she has lost her leg

http://www.fulhamchronicle.co.uk/fulham-and-hammersmith-news/local-fulham-and-hammersmith-news/2012/07/25/woman-cyclist-crushed-under-lorry-in-fulham-suffers-life-changing-injuries-82029-31469718/

Oh Christ, those pictures have left me feeing sick. F*cking tragic, poor woman, thank God she survived though.

To the people jumping to conclusions re lorries etc, we all know some riders do silly things, but we also know that plenty of motorists do as well and that's where the education is needed. I had a lorry swerve into the cycle lane at Vauxhall a while back, he passed me and then began encroaching, came very close to taking me under the wheels. Pretty much the scariest thing that's ever happened to me. There's little you can do in these circumstances, especially if there are railings in place. So enough of the victim blaming please. Lorry drivers are professionals, they should be constantly vigilant especially at junctions in busy cities like London, there is absolutely no excuse for them running anyone over, ever.

Agreed.

sharkyssurfers wrote:

from reading that article, it seems to me that she might of come off her bike before being hit, in which the lorry would have no time to react, we are all to easy to blame one another when it could be a case of something spilled and the wheels went from under her.

If she slipped/fell off the bike and the lorry hit her then he was too close.

Sewinman

Sometimes the road design can lead to problems too. The incident IP describes happened to me to in the exact same spot - why? Because the bus lane opens up to HGV's and encourages them to make a mad dash into that lane when the traffic is looking iffy in the primary lane approaching Vauxhall.

Is it possible to complain about road design?

il_principe

Sewinman wrote:

Sometimes the road design can lead to problems too. The incident IP describes happened to me to in the exact same spot - why? Because the bus lane opens up to HGV's and encourages them to make a mad dash into that lane when the traffic is looking iffy in the primary lane approaching Vauxhall.

Is it possible to complain about road design?

Let me know if you discover it is. That bit of road is a fatality waiting to happen, especially with the building site next door, and all the other construction scheduled along 9 Elms.

bails87

You must be able to contact the local council.

anonymousblackfg

I have raised the NKR with Chris Bainbridge at H&F given the number of accidents involving cyclists. The council recognise there could always be better facilities. I had mentioned the NKR comes up on bike forums quite a lot and was told H&F could not find references to them so now I send details of these rather sad accidents to him personally when they appear on here. If you have concerns over this stretch of road please lobby the local authority for change.

okgo

Well, ride safe folks. Personally up to around 15k of cycling in the last 18 months (mostly commuting) and the only time I've come off has been on a slippery corner in the hills and at Hillingdon. Rider road sense and awareness is by far the biggest factor in reducing these fatalities, I'm sure of that. There are situations you cannot control, but the bit people need to learn is when an action they take will put them in a position where someone else's negligence will end in injury that they cannot control/avoid.

il_principe

okgo wrote:

Well, ride safe folks. Personally up to around 15k of cycling in the last 18 months (mostly commuting) and the only time I've come off has been on a slippery corner in the hills and at Hillingdon. Rider road sense and awareness is by far the biggest factor in reducing these fatalities, I'm sure of that.

And your evidence is what exactly?

Sounds like victim blaming to me.

I'd suggest that driver sense and awareness is just as big a factor (probably bigger); most commuting cyclists don't move fast enough to take an aware driver by suprise. Onus should fall on the driver - the person with the engine and the metal box, to ensure that the unprotected cyclist doesn't get flattened.

FWIW I've been commuting in London for around 7/8 years or so now. I've had 2 offs, both of which were the fault of the driver. If they're not looking then it doesn't matter how aware you are, you're the one that's gonna end up in Hospital.

Wrath Rob

Il Principe wrote:

okgo wrote:

Well, ride safe folks. Personally up to around 15k of cycling in the last 18 months (mostly commuting) and the only time I've come off has been on a slippery corner in the hills and at Hillingdon. Rider road sense and awareness is by far the biggest factor in reducing these fatalities, I'm sure of that.

And your evidence is what exactly?

Sounds like victim blaming to me.

I'd suggest that driver sense and awareness is just as big a factor (probably bigger); most commuting cyclists don't move fast enough to take an aware driver by suprise. Onus should fall on the driver - the person with the engine and the metal box, to ensure that the unprotected cyclist doesn't get flattened.

FWIW I've been commuting in London for around 7/8 years or so now. I've had 2 offs, both of which were the fault of the driver. If they're not looking then it doesn't matter how aware you are, you're the one that's gonna end up in Hospital.

IP, I know that you're an experienced rider so for those 2 off's that weren't your fault, I'd hazard a guess that they were something like another vehicle pulling out in front of you? I'd guess that neither of them were due to you putting yourself in a hazardous situation and paying the price? In that situation, there's nothing you could do and I agree its the other party's fault.

I don't know the facts of this accident, and I'm not blaming the victim nor am I defending the driver. However there's a very strong element on this forum and this thread that starts from the point of assuming the driver of the vehicle is automatically at fault. We've all been in situations where our road sense clearly days "don't go there" but we see other, less competent cyclists rush in. I agree that we need better driver awareness but we also need better cyclist awareness. We all need to take responsibility for our actions, whether you're in a metal box or on a bike. That line "Onus should fall on the driver" is bollox. You said it yourself, "you're the one that's gonna end up in Hospital" so make sure you don't put yourself in a stupid position, like going up the inside of large vehicles turning left, like riding the wrong way down a 1 way street or getting within 10m of anything with Addison Lee written on it.

Yes we need to help change the behaviour of drivers, but its easier and quicker to start by changing your own behaviour first.

Of course, most of us on this forum have already done that and ride sensibly. Its the people who don't read posts like this that are the ones we really need to reach.

jeepie

If the lights are green and you cannot pull out to primary due to traffic flow and a lorry overtakes you and turns left there is feck all you can do about it. This is routinely ignored by people assuming the lorry is stationary and the cyclist moves up on their inside. Consider that the lorry may overtake and turn left leaving you no option.

I am not commenting on this particular incident nor where the fault lies. My best wishes to the injured lady and to the truck driver who will be very upset no doubt.

veronese68

I think IP and Rob are both right. In a perfect world perhaps the onus should be on the driver. Unfortunately other people aren't perfect and there are many poor drivers and many poor cyclists. The driver, being in the more dangerous vehicle, should be more aware of what's around him. The cyclist, vulnerable, should be extremely careful.
Everybody needs to improve. Unfortunately too late for this poor woman it doesn't sound like she'll be back on a bike.

mr_ribble

Looking at things from a wider view, I think we all would agree that the Government could do more to make cycling safer. To give them credit, I think the cycle superhighways are a start. The combination of the width and the vivid blue paint mean that motorists respect the space more. The decision to not have them operational 24 hours a day was completely backward, as at night they often become car parks, and you find yourself having to move back into a flow of traffic. Anyone who as ever cycled back at 11pm will know that there still quite a lot of cyclists around at the point.

Which leads to ASLs. No point in having them if its not going to be enforced. But how? Cameras at junctions, and fixed notices issued or even just bobbies standing there. But both these cost money. And at the moment this is something the government doesn't have. Personally, I would be happy to pay £10 a year to the government into a fund that was ringfenced to spend money on making the streets safer for cyclists. I dont know how many people cycle to work each day in the capital, but at 200k, that would be 2.0mio to spend. Not much I know, but it could make some change. If you decide to enforce it however, administration costs would reduce net receipts to zero and basically make it redundant

Reverting back to NKR specifically, even with a bigger better cycle lane, your still at danger of getting left hooked at one of those junctions. I've seen it happen so many times, and to people on this forum. Warning lines on the road before junctions for both cyclists and vehicles might work, but London streets may start to look more like a Hockney and actually be too confusing. There is not a single solution. The government need to spend more, and appreciate the long term benefits of getting more people on their bike. The police need to be given the motivation and resources to enforce the rules. As such, cyclists who break the laws and act irresponsibly need to have the book thrown at them. I happily admit that I have, at times taken unnecessary risks, and in most parts its down to gunning it a bit too much and I have to tell myself to slow down a bit. Seeing that frame propped up against the wall last night is a frank reminder to us all.

veronese68

Mr_Ribble wrote:

Personally, I would be happy to pay £10 a year to the government into a fund that was ringfenced to spend money on making the streets safer for cyclists. I dont know how many people cycle to work each day in the capital, but at 200k, that would be 2.0mio to spend. Not much I know, but it could make some change. If you decide to enforce it however, administration costs would reduce net receipts to zero and basically make it redundant.

As would I. But can you imagine the number of sanctimonious twunts that would think it gave them extra privileges as they had paid for that facility out of there own pocket.

Mr_Ribble wrote:

I happily admit that I have, at times taken unnecessary risks, and in most parts its down to gunning it a bit too much and I have to tell myself to slow down a bit. Seeing that frame propped up against the wall last night is a frank reminder to us all.

Haven't we all. Worse when I was on a motorbike.

il_principe

Mr_Ribble wrote:

As such, cyclists who break the laws and act irresponsibly need to have the book thrown at them. I happily admit that I have, at times taken unnecessary risks, and in most parts its down to gunning it a bit too much and I have to tell myself to slow down a bit. Seeing that frame propped up against the wall last night is a frank reminder to us all.

I'd rather motorists who run down cyclists have the book thrown at them. Not a week goes by without a story about a driver getting a pathetic punishment for running down a cyclist. Take the driver who ran down Eilidh Cairns, he was found to be driving with uncorrected defective vision, for which he received three points on his licence and a £200 fine, with the police only checking his eyesight at the Cairns’ family’s insistence three months after the fatal incident. Since then, he's plead guilty to causing the death by dangerous driving of a 97-year woman...

okgo

Il Principe wrote:

okgo wrote:

Well, ride safe folks. Personally up to around 15k of cycling in the last 18 months (mostly commuting) and the only time I've come off has been on a slippery corner in the hills and at Hillingdon. Rider road sense and awareness is by far the biggest factor in reducing these fatalities, I'm sure of that.

And your evidence is what exactly?

Sounds like victim blaming to me.

I'd suggest that driver sense and awareness is just as big a factor (probably bigger); most commuting cyclists don't move fast enough to take an aware driver by suprise. Onus should fall on the driver - the person with the engine and the metal box, to ensure that the unprotected cyclist doesn't get flattened.

FWIW I've been commuting in London for around 7/8 years or so now. I've had 2 offs, both of which were the fault of the driver. If they're not looking then it doesn't matter how aware you are, you're the one that's gonna end up in Hospital.

Well, I should have said it was my opinion that the cause is that, rather than I'm sure of it. All I can use is my evidence from what I see, certainly from day to day viewing on the roads you can see that one day some people will end up under the wheels due to the way they ride. Dare I say it but ATG is a pretty good example of someone who takes quite a few chances in my mind for not a lot of gain, all it takes as you said is for one car to not do what you think it will, and suddenly you're in the middle of 2 lanes of traffic about to be run over by another car.

The time you've been commuting is less relevant than the time you're on the road I guess. The thing is regardless of where the onus should fall, as you said, there is only one person that comes off badly. And actually I think the road is a fairly OK place to be if you know what you're doing. My partner smashed her face in on the back of a parked car, at first she started trying to blame the car (when recalling how it happened) but the reality was that she wasn't paying attention and hadn't noticed a cab pull over to pick someone up (don't get me fcking started on that, totally mad that they can stop wherever and do what they want) and went flying into it. I would never do that. Ever. And I doubt anyone on here would.

The roads are dangerous, we all know that, but I honestly think if everyone was at a basic level of cycling awareness/roadsense then it would be a lot safer for all concerned.

Paulie W

This is an important discussion but I'm not sure this is the right thread for it.

okgo

Why not?

Otherwise this might as well be a sticky with one post in it saying rider down on kings road. This is a discussion forum...I don't think anyone has accused anyone of anything, just being hypothetical?

Paulie W

okgo wrote:

Why not?

Otherwise this might as well be a sticky with one post in it saying rider down on kings road. This is a discussion forum...I don't think anyone has accused anyone of anything, just being hypothetical?

If you cant figure that out, I'm not going to tell you.

okgo

I don't see what is wrong with discussing the issues that we all face on a day to day basis?

Its utterly terrible what has happened to this rider, but I think its interesting to see what people see as the issue and how it can be improved upon.

Paulie W

okgo wrote:

I don't see what is wrong with discussing the issues that we all face on a day to day basis?

Start a new thread then or better yet contribute to one of the hundreds of threads on this forum that have discussed the same thing. It's all about context - any discussion on a thread that is about an actual accident that focuses on blame, fault, education, etc - however hypothetical - reflects back on the actual event. Personally I think it's best to separate this kind of discussion - which nearly always ends up getting a little heated.

okgo

Fair enough.

I think the comment on the story is a bit more 'victim blaming' than anything said on here. FWIW.

Wrath Rob

Il Principe wrote:

I'd rather motorists who run down cyclists have the book thrown at them.

Its not Either/Or, its both. which is my point. Everyone who breaks the rules and endangers themselves/others should be punished. Otherwise you're saying "its OK that he ran a red light at 26mph, hit some poor lawyer on a ped crossing and caused brain damage, he's a cyclist". Extreme example I know but it illustrates the point.