Kimmage, anyone?

timoid.

Rick Chasey wrote:

http://cyclocosm.com/2012/07/the-new-reality/

Cyclocosm's still pretty good when he posts....

His take on le dopage and kimmage at the bottom.

Pretty good summary there.

Le Commentateur

dennisn wrote:

smithy21 wrote:

Some of Kimmage's stuff is very good and there is a lot to admire about his writing.

However, I was disappointed with this article. It seems to be a hastily cobbled together response to Wiggins winning the Tour. Was he a bit short of cash this month and needed to get something published to pay the bills?

My impression is that he writes because he's paid to write. Just like you or I are paid to do whatever it is we do. He has certain deadlines that are imposed on him to get things done. Just Like you and I. Hastily cobbled together? Maybe, and then again the people who pay him also have a major influence on what he writes about. Just like the people who pay us have a major influence on what we do and when we do it.
Still, like you say "disappointed" wouldn't be a wrong word to use.

It's a spoiler piece aimed at taking a bit of the shine off Sky, a company part-owned by a Daily Mail rival.

dennisn

Le Commentateur wrote:

dennisn wrote:

smithy21 wrote:

Some of Kimmage's stuff is very good and there is a lot to admire about his writing.

However, I was disappointed with this article. It seems to be a hastily cobbled together response to Wiggins winning the Tour. Was he a bit short of cash this month and needed to get something published to pay the bills?

My impression is that he writes because he's paid to write. Just like you or I are paid to do whatever it is we do. He has certain deadlines that are imposed on him to get things done. Just Like you and I. Hastily cobbled together? Maybe, and then again the people who pay him also have a major influence on what he writes about. Just like the people who pay us have a major influence on what we do and when we do it.
Still, like you say "disappointed" wouldn't be a wrong word to use.

It's a spoiler piece aimed at taking a bit of the shine off Sky, a company part-owned by a Daily Mail rival.

Didn't realize that about the rival thing. Sorts of puts a whole new twist on things.

ddraver

iainf72 wrote:

I don't think Sky are doing anything terrible but let's not delude ourselves that they are transparent. They are improving but need to do better

They re the best in the Pro-Peloton! Possibly with the exception of Garmin Sharp but by a gnat's wing!

timoid.

ddraver wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

I don't think Sky are doing anything terrible but let's not delude ourselves that they are transparent. They are improving but need to do better

They re the best in the Pro-Peloton! Possibly with the exception of Garmin Sharp but by a gnat's wing!

Really? How so?

As far as I can see only Garmin make any sort of effort at transparency. The French are too inept and the rest are too cautious.

ddraver

If you can find a single piece by a non Sky or Garmin rider simialr to what DB or BW wrote in the Guardian I ll retract the comment. Happy Hunting!

The fact that Sky spouted a load of bollocks when they started up has been done to death here so many times. Do people still think it's relevant? Obviously we re happy one of the claims turned out to be mind....

timoid.

ddraver wrote:

If you can find a single piece by a non Sky or Garmin rider simialr to what DB or BW wrote in the Guardian I ll retract the comment. Happy Hunting!

The fact that Sky spouted a load of bollocks when they started up has been done to death here so many times. Do people still think it's relevant? Obviously we re happy one of the claims turned out to be mind....

I haven't seen the articles you refer to (please post links if you can) but is writing in the Guardian a demonstration of transparency? If that's your bag. Read anything by the excellent Marco Pinotti.

I prefer riders posting blood profiles. e.g. Basso or allowing anti-doping journalists behind the scenes access e.g. Francais des Jeux, Garmin.

The Little Onion

The cyclocosm piece is a bit crap - a key argument is that Wiggins is using the same rhetorical strategies as Armstrong uses, and therefore is a doper. This is crap for three reasons:
-The press conference in question was a relatively unique occasion, and Wiggins has used very different language on many other occasions, not least the day before and the day after the event in question. We all have different moods on different days, particularly given that Wiggins is someone with a very dry sense of humour.
-If the discourse and language of a doper looks like the kind of thing that Armstrong would say, Cyclocosm doesn't ask what kind of language a non-doper would look like. What would be the alternative way of doing press conferences that would make Cyclocosm happy?
-When Wiggins chases down breaks whilst in the maillot jaune just to annoy riders who have questioned his links to dodgy doctors, then we might start to believe that he is an unpleasant and deeply dodgy individual, like Armstrong.

disgruntledgoat

Likewise when somebody finds bags of illicit medical waste dumped by the Sky staff, a load of his former teammates test positive after leaving Sky, he is revealed to have a long standing professional relationship with Ferrari and so on and so forth.

There is literally nothing to link Sky to doping other than hearsay and conjecture.

andrewjoseph

The Little Onion wrote:

The cyclocosm piece is a bit crap - a key argument is that Wiggins is using the same rhetorical strategies as Armstrong uses, and therefore is a doper. ...

I don't think the journalists are saying that Wiggins/Sky are doping because of what they say. I think they are saying by they are in danger of looking/sounding like Armstrong. And that's not a good thing.

To overcome this sense of 'here we go again', Sky can do several things to reassure people, things that they promised on start up, things they promised just before the tour (kimmage in the car).

They probably are clean, but i don't think they are doing all they can to show they are clean.

RichN95.

andrewjoseph wrote:

The Little Onion wrote:

The cyclocosm piece is a bit crap - a key argument is that Wiggins is using the same rhetorical strategies as Armstrong uses, and therefore is a doper. ...

I don't think the journalists are saying that Wiggins/Sky are doping because of what they say. I think they are saying by they are in danger of looking/sounding like Armstrong. And that's not a good thing.

Yeah, but surely Armstrong was saying what he thought a clean riding would say. He was hardly going to shout 'Look at me, I'm full of drugs'. If a criminal pleads not guilty in court and is found guilty, you can't hold that against everyone who subsequently pleads not guilty.

Every case needs to be treated on it's own merits. Drawing parallels to Armstrong is lazy, deliberately provocative and the cycling equivalent of Godwin's Law.

smithy21

Its a tricky business being a cyclist isnt it.

As part of your job you have to cycle a few thousand kms round France. You also have to deal with the press straight after some tiring stages. As part of this you will be asked questions about drugs. When you answer these questions you not only need to deny the use of drugs you need to deny it in the right way so as not to appear to be coming across like someone who everyone thinks/knows doped. And people think winning the TdF is hard... :roll:

andrewjoseph

RichN95 wrote:

...
Yeah, but surely Armstrong was saying what he thought a clean riding would say. He was hardly going to shout 'Look at me, I'm full of drugs'. If a criminal pleads not guilty in court and is found guilty, you can't hold that against everyone who subsequently pleads not guilty.

Every case needs to be treated on it's own merits. Drawing parallels to Armstrong is lazy, deliberately provocative and the cycling equivalent of Godwin's Law.

Yes, I get your point. But the job of a journalist is two fold, to report the news and /or find the truth behind the news.

Kimmage probably is bitter, he couldn't compete with other riders unless he too was doped. he got sick of beating himself against a wall of average riders (probably like himself) who could dope better. He took it upon himself to stop doping in sport. And for this I think he should be lauded. He may get it wrong sometimes, but so do the testers.

RichN95.

andrewjoseph wrote:

But the job of a journalist is two fold, to report the news and /or find the truth behind the news.

The job of the journalist is one fold - sell papers (or the digital equivalent).

If truth comes with that, then that's great, a nice bonus.

Kimmage writes about doping in cycling because that's what people hire him for - there's an audience for it. And Kimmage writing about doping is Jerry Lee Lewis playing Great Balls of Fire, that's all cycling people are interested in hearing from him.
On the other hand he doesn't write about doping in rugby (for example), because no-one wants to read for that story.

mfin

RichN95 wrote:

The job of the journalist is one fold - sell papers (or the digital equivalent).

Yes, that's right, I buy my papers from a journalist up the street called WH Smith. He also sells stationery and cards and stuff.

Things have changed a bit with the digital age, years ago you bought the paper probably only seeing the front page, and these doping articles aren't front page in the general press unless they are a full-on story. They're just part of the content.

Of course, now, we go straight to the articles online that interest us, and social media spreads it around.

Its the old thing of the press doing plenty of bad stuff in amongst the good. Kimmage does seem to cross that line all by himself a little nowadays though, but, doping is what he writes about, and he's gonna keep writing as long as there's a market for it.

andrewjoseph

RichN95 wrote:

...
On the other hand he doesn't write about doping in rugby (for example), because no-one wants to read for that story.

dunno about that, i don't follow rugby, or any other sport, apart from cycling.

I'm just glad that someone is willing to speak up, knowing they will be unpopular.

mm1

While some journalists may see themselves as seekers after truth, its difficult not to smile at the following:

The relationship between journalism and the truth is like the relationship between the colour green and the number seven, you someimes see seven written in green ink but you don't come to expect it...or words to that effect (Spalding Gray, I think).

The Murdoch's role as sometime employers of Kimmage, Walsh and Team Sky as well as massive corruptors of truth in public life and the uk media is fascinating...bike racing is but a tiny footnote to the whole circus. FWIW, Team Sky is IMHO the only authentic bit...but it is of course a self serving sideshow for JM.

dylanfernley

Paul Kimmage should be let loose on the Golfers, an ants nest waiting to be poked

dennisn

dylanfernley wrote:

Paul Kimmage should be let loose on the Golfers, an ants nest waiting to be poked

They would kill him within a week. They're everywhere.