froome and wiggins

phreak

You could argue that Sky have some challenges keeping everyone happy even outside of Froome/Wiggins/Cavendish because the likes of Henao, Uran, Porte and EBH could probably have higher status roles in other teams.

thamacdaddy

Couple of questions around Cav with everyone lamenting the very trains they often criticise in other TDF (make your minds up).

How long do we think he can keep his top end speed? In either case how long do we really think Cav wants to just do a procession to the line, perhaps he wants to change his focus a bit and sky works with that plan?

Regardless he is a grad of the GB cycling setup back with all those trainers he used in a part time capacity while at HTC anyway. I suggest he didn't "ONLY" move for money.

There is no reason Sky can't turn it on their head and develop dometiques that can pull on the flat. In fact suitsou, EBH, Thomas and eisel can do just that, taking early turns on mountains before dropping off and resting for sprint days with people like rogers and porte etc doing the majority of the mountain work. As someone mentioned they also have some other talent coming through in uran and heneo, and I am a big fan of thomas and where he might take his career next.

That said perhaps porte especially has his own ambitions too and you have to think if they believe the parcours doesn't work for wiggins one year or he wants to concentrate on other things then he would be one hell of a domestique to set you up on the climbs.

I have watched people be negative here about the whole Sky thing since it was announced. How ridiculous their stated aims were and then how with all that money they didn't have a clue how to win, and now it's all about how they have built a team that is not going to work together. It will never end I know that, that's what a forum is about I guess but I honestly think all this speculation is rubbish. The only person I can see believing the hype leaving and then probably not delivering is Froome. I am not convinced at all he actually has it to be a true team leader or proper contender but time will tell.

petemadoc

thamacdaddy wrote:

The only person I can see believing the hype leaving and then probably not delivering is Froome. I am not convinced at all he actually has it to be a true team leader or proper contender but time will tell.

There's something immature about Froome, he keeps hinting in interviews that he's holding back, sacrificing, bla bla bla

Do your job, wait your turn or go somewhere else. Simples. All this playing about is just a bit silly.

I can't see Sky riding for Froome next year when Wiggins is the current champ (touches wood).

But then maybe they'll ride with 2 GC contenders and switch full support to whoever looks strongest.... I dunno?

Anyways I think Froome vs Wiggo vs Contador vs Schleck vs would be pretty exciting although I don't expect much from Schleck to be honest.

cal_stewart

2013 I would go with

Giro Cav and Wiggo
Tour Split team Froome and Cav
Vuelta Henao, Uran

They need to step there game up in the classic's

snoopsmydogg

Could this not turn into a case of horses for courses for SKY?

Wiggo - excellent when it comes to TT's and was probably the most suited TDF GC contender this year.

Froome - Showing his strength in the hills so maybe a contender next year depending on the layout? Wiggins said in his interview last night that he would support Froome when the time came.

Cav - Sprinter come domestique, yes he has (or had?) the fastest legs in the peloton but that wont last forever and when he can't sprint the cheques could stop. He wont be a GC contender but seems to be playing other parts well.

rebs

Cav agreed to ride the tour knowing it was going to be GC focused. He was told he'll have oppotunities in the sprints with no leadout. Cav won't be unhappy over any of this. Seems Sky were very upfront about what they wanted to do this year with the Tour even before Cav signed.

Next year have the team split even more in teams of Sprint and GC. I.e Rogers working more with the sprint train then in the mountains. Think Eisel may lose his place in the Tour to Thomas. Cav Thomas EBH for the final 2km + 2 Rogers and another to string it out.

Sky will no doubt "train for" using less guys in the mountains

graeme_s-2

MrTapir wrote:

On the Froome/Wiggins question, i got the sense From Wiggo during his interview last night that he would be happy to support Froomey in a bid for Tour win.

Wiggins has said this, but he hasn't said when. He certainly hasn't said "next year".

petemadoc

Graeme_S wrote:

MrTapir wrote:

On the Froome/Wiggins question, i got the sense From Wiggo during his interview last night that he would be happy to support Froomey in a bid for Tour win.

Wiggins has said this, but he hasn't said when. He certainly hasn't said "next year".

Exactly!

Can't see the team riding for Froome in next years tour. Froome now has a hard choice to make, stay at Sky so that "one day" he will ride for GC or move.

graeme_s-2

I can understand why Sky wanted Cav, and why Cav wanted to go to Sky, but I'm not convinced it works that well for anyone. To me it would make much more sense to have a rider like Cancellara at Sky instead. Someone who can make them a real force in the spring classics (where they're currently lacking) and be a super domestique/stage hunter in GTs.

meggiedude

Graeme_S wrote:

MrTapir wrote:

On the Froome/Wiggins question, i got the sense From Wiggo during his interview last night that he would be happy to support Froomey in a bid for Tour win.

Wiggins has said this, but he hasn't said when. He certainly hasn't said "next year".

Yep, that was my feeling too.
Like you say, no timelines were mentioned.
Sure if the training was appropriate and the felt up to retaining the jersey next year, he's go for it.

symo

Who cares who Liquigas have? Next year SKY have JTL, the other teams should let him ride at the front and squabble amongst themelves for second.

MDCC - NDA

RichN95.

The whole dynamic of the team at next year's Tour is likely to be a lot different. This year they took the jersey very early and also lost a really big workforce, so they've had to do more work than they probably planned on. Next year they are more likely to find themselves reacting to other teams, rather than dictating to them. This will help sort out the Froome/Wiggins question and will maybe allow for more resources to be used for Cavendish.

lloyd_bower

Graeme_S wrote:

I can understand why Sky wanted Cav, and why Cav wanted to go to Sky, but I'm not convinced it works that well for anyone. To me it would make much more sense to have a rider like Cancellara at Sky instead. Someone who can make them a real force in the spring classics (where they're currently lacking) and be a super domestique/stage hunter in GTs.

The Mad Rapper wrote:

My own feeling is that SKY is now clearly a GC team. There is no place for Cav at SKY if that is indeed the case. I know people will argue that he can use other trains, and while true to a small degree, it's dangerous and provides inconsistent results. Look at this year's TdF, there are at least 3 stages he either lost or didn't compete that he would have won if HTC still existed.

Cav deserves a full team dedicated to getting him across the line first. He needs to move.

So agree, always seemed a strange decision for Cav, Sky were never going to be able to go for two goals in the tour. Once it was clear Wiggins was real contender for this year's Tour, a train supporting Cavendish in the sprint stages was never on. With a Wiggins win all but certain this year, the chance of any decent support for Cav on the sprint stages in next years Tour seems very remote.

I hope that support Cav on the Champs Elysée and he gets a 4th consecutive win there, but long term best for both parties, if Cavendish moves on. I think he's been involved in only 2 of the sprint finishes this year, a far cry from the last 4 years.
Cav is still a top class sprinter, it's sad to see the World's jersey reduced to domestique duties.

hammerite

lloyd bower wrote:

So agree, always seemed a strange decision for Cav, Sky were never going to be able to go for two goals in the tour. Once it was clear Wiggins was real contender for this year's Tour, a train supporting Cavendish in the sprint stages was never on. With a Wiggins win all but certain this year, the chance of any decent support for Cav on the sprint stages in next years Tour seems very remote.

I hope that support Cav on the Champs Elysée and he gets a 4th consecutive win there, but long term best for both parties, if Cavendish moves on. I think he's been involved in only 2 of the sprint finishes this year, a far cry from the last 4 years.
Cav is still a top class sprinter, it's sad to see the World's jersey reduced to domestique duties.

Really?? I think it sets a good example of what a World Champ should do. Being a pro cyclist and World Champ isn't just about winning or being in a position to contest wins all the time.

Let's not forget that the TdF is in essence a training race for Cav. Yes he wants to win some stages, but it's not his priority (this year). He said while at HTC he was being paid to win races, but he didn't necessarily enjoy the way he raced. I think he probably enjoys being one of the lads and doing his bit.

I also think sprinting is becoming a bit more competitive now. Cav's regular main rivals at the TdF a few years ago were Boonen, Hushovd, Petacchi and McEwan, none of them youngsters. There's now Greipel*, Goss, Farrar, Sagan, Kittel (all relatively young compared to Boonen et al) to add to that who are giving him a run for his money, and as a result he'll win less often.


* I know he's 30, but he couldn't compete with Cav a few years ago as they were on the same team.

MrT

100th anniversary tour next year.....so expect Alpe d'huez, Ventoux,.....already know they are coming to Bonnascre/Ax trois Domaines for Mtf...tough climb.....Froome "appears to be plus fort" in the mountains but can't see Wiggins not wanting to defend for this one. Best for all concerned is if Mr Froome tells the girlfriend to stop tweeting like some stroppy teenager.....can't imagine Mrs Hinault ever sticking her oar into things!!!!! Interestingly Jalabert, who actually knocks most of our lot into cock hats, believes Froome MAY be playing up to the cameras; not really the done thing.

greasedscotsman

MrT wrote:

Interestingly Jalabert, who actually knocks most of our lot into fool hats, believes Froome MAY be playing up to the cameras; not really the done thing.

You had better let this fella know as well then...

snoopsmydogg

greasedscotsman wrote:

MrT wrote:

Interestingly Jalabert, who actually knocks most of our lot into fool hats, believes Froome MAY be playing up to the cameras; not really the done thing.

You had better let this fella know as well then...

when did harry enfield get a yellow jersey

napoleond

Sky have already prepared their jerseys for the podium

Coach H

You lot may want to check out tthe spoiler and then re-evaluate Cav losing his pace!

scott_w1987

Coach H wrote:

You lot may want to check out tthe spoiler and then re-evaluate Cav losing his pace!

Calder

Coach H wrote:

You lot may want to check out tthe spoiler and then re-evaluate Cav losing his pace!

Or we might not want you giving spoilers on this thread because we want to watch it when we get home.

Coach H

Calder wrote:

Coach H wrote:

You lot may want to check out tthe spoiler and then re-evaluate Cav losing his pace!

Or we might not want you giving spoilers on this thread because we want to watch it when we get home.

If you dont want the chance of any kind of spoiler before you get home it is probably best not to be trawling the Pro Race forum. Particularly a thread discussing the Sky dynamics at the Tour, the very race you are trying to avoid until you get home!

Calder

Coach H wrote:

Calder wrote:

Coach H wrote:

You lot may want to check out tthe spoiler and then re-evaluate Cav losing his pace!

Or we might not want you giving spoilers on this thread because we want to watch it when we get home.

If you dont want the chance of any kind of spoiler before you get home it is probably best not to be trawling the Pro Race forum. Particularly a thread discussing the Sky dynamics at the Tour, the very race you are trying to avoid until you get home!

Maybe. But I figured no-one would be inconsiderate enough to post a result on here just minutes (seconds?) after the stage finishes. Especially not without some kind of warning. Tit.

Earthbound

The whole Froome could have won it debate rests on his climbing ability most notably his ability to put in a burst. Wiggins is not that type of rider, he's more of - steadily turn it up type of climber, like his childhood hero Indurain.

Indurain and Pantani had some epic battles in the Tour, I remember the one where Pamtani shot off and left everyone else and rode into the clouds. The mountain top was completely covere in cloud, tv pictures were breaking up.

Pantani was sure he had the win in the bag when he heard an increasing amount of commotion coming up behind him. He looked over his shoulder and saw nothing but the noise just got louder. He looked over again and there was a Yellow haze to the cloud cover and then emerged the grimacing face of Indurain, that huge engine turning up the watts steadily to eat up the gap Pantani had rapidly built up.

Pantani's face was a picture. He simply couldn't believe that anyone could have chased him down on such a climb and he knew right there he couldn't beat Indurain in the Tour.

Edit: and by the joy of YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SESSSpBU ... ata_player
Indurain old school champion, hand laced wheels, cotton cap, 70s porn star shades

Froome may have been able to put Pantani like bursts into his climbing and paint a picture of what "could have been" but could he have finished the job and gone on to squarely beat Wiggins. How much time would he have gained on Wiggins by the finish of these climbs and how much of any gap would Wiggins have steadily ground down in a controlled raising of his tempo. My money's on the Indurain fan.

RichN95.

Earthbound wrote:

Froome may have been able to put Pantani like bursts into his climbing and paint a picture of what "could have been" but could he have finished the job and gone on to squarely beat Wiggins. How much time would he have gained on Wiggins by the finish of these climbs and how much of any gap would Wiggins have steadily ground down in a controlled raising of his tempo. My money's on the Indurain fan.

A clue to this can be found in last year's Vuelta, on the stage Froome won. In that last climb Froome attacked and very quickly put a large gap between him and Cobo - probably enough to win the Vuelta - but he couldn't maintain it and ultimately gained no time. Some people's idea that Froome could have gained 2 minutes plus on Wiggins seems a little fanciful to me.

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

A clue to this can be found in last year's Vuelta, on the stage Froome won. In that last climb Froome attacked and very quickly put a large gap between him and Cobo - probably enough to win the Vuelta - but he couldn't maintain it and ultimately gained no time. Some people's idea that Froome could have gained 2 minutes plus on Wiggins seems a little fanciful to me.

It seems his biggest problem is between his ears. Doesn't seem very tactically astute, and this was again confirmed by Yates in l'equipe today. Or at least that's what they think he was saying - It could have been some advise on shrubs.

borntoride04

I agree. I don't think he will be able to lead a team to victory. Some people have their best result as a team mate and disappear when they have to support race pressure and leading position. Good job Brad ! I love the way you talks and keep cool when the race is on fire !

luckao

RichN95 wrote:

Earthbound wrote:

Froome may have been able to put Pantani like bursts into his climbing and paint a picture of what "could have been" but could he have finished the job and gone on to squarely beat Wiggins. How much time would he have gained on Wiggins by the finish of these climbs and how much of any gap would Wiggins have steadily ground down in a controlled raising of his tempo. My money's on the Indurain fan.

A clue to this can be found in last year's Vuelta, on the stage Froome won. In that last climb Froome attacked and very quickly put a large gap between him and Cobo - probably enough to win the Vuelta - but he couldn't maintain it and ultimately gained no time. Some people's idea that Froome could have gained 2 minutes plus on Wiggins seems a little fanciful to me.

Just like Nibali didn't have any problem making a dig and getting some distance. We saw how those ended.

I think people read far too much into those little bursts of speed when Wiggins lost his wheel. As opposed to him being unable to go with him, Wiggins seemed decisive that he wouldn't be influenced by him.

Anonymous

I've seen people on twitter claiming that Froome could have put upwards of 3 minutes on Wiggins but I just can't see it. No one seems to have remembered when Wiggo covered Nibalis attack on his own, whilst Froome was blowing out his arse. Wiggin's was by far the better TT rider as I'm sure we will see when they can properly race at the Olympics. I liked Froome a lot before the tour but the way he attacked off his own team leader to try and get his own personal glory has made me loose a lot for him.


He also needs to teach his misses about cycling roles or tell her to wind her neck in.

Jambes de Fer

I think if Froome hadn't punctured and lost that 1min 30 he may have been able to take Wiggo in a straight fight. Given a free reign this year I don't think he'd have taken 3 mins 15 out of Brad. He's got a great kick and his stage win in the Vuelta last year makes me think he can dig deep. He could probably take 20-30 seconds out of Wiggo at the end of a couple of climbs.

That said, when he sprinted off and got passed by Pinot he ran out of gas fairly quickly (though he was going all out with the line close). Also, would digging really deep on a few occasions maybe take a little bit out of him on future stages?

I suppose in the future you've got Wiggo dieseling up and Froome legging it off his wheel near the end to grab some time. Wiggo could also sort Cav out in the sprints which could be ideal.

Definitely the right decision to stick with Brad as leader though.