One-legged cycling drills

dirtyginge

Hi there

so right about now you are wondering where the hell this thread is going. Its only my second post and im wondering what the hell is going on in this forum, but it kinda matches the personality of a lot of roadies i meet..... ( really wa%$£"ing in a pot noodle ????"

To quote a phrase "even cyclists hat f^%£in cyclists"...the OP has only asked for help, and so far most posts are ridiculing him for asking ?, yes indeed, let encourage the newer cyclists...???

Anyway,

I recently had a gait analysis at the drummond clinic, including using the powertrainer software to analyse my pedal stroke. Even though i only recently got back into cycling, i thought of myself as not novice , with 150 miles a week under my belt. Didnt think i was brilliant but didnt think i was bad. I had just started using one legged drills to improve my circles for three weeks before arriving....I found they made a massive difference but i still had to concentrate to switch "modes" from my normal pedal stroke to full circles

So using the software of the powertrainer turbo to analyse the efficiency of my pedal stroke

mode 1 - normal...i only start to push at 30% down the pedal stroke, and the upstroke was just attrocious, everything in between was just bad...average 180 watts

Mode 2..circles I concentrated hard to try to replicate the one legged drills, and the efficiency improved massively, but the software proved that the right/left balance was 60/40 so my right leg dominated, leading to imbalance, and hence right knee pain

since being there, i have concentrated more on drillls, and now have a 40K commute with 400Ft of climb, average speed 21MPH, no knee pain, improving my average MPH by 1mph per week.....Im no chris hoy but yes indeed i think they help, especially to isolate weak muscles....make sure you train on the trainer in exactly the same positition you would use on the bike ( drops etc)....."you will hear the weakness on a turbo trainer as an uneven pitch in the resisanct unit, work for an even sound all round"

Start with 10 minute warm up, fast cadence
once you are dripping wet, 20 seconds left one leg drills, 1 minute spin, 20 seconds right , spin to recover....when you feel ready repeat....when you are finding 20 seconds to easy, increase to 25mph

5 times per sesssion 3 times a week, and dont forget to stretch

as with all advice, read, see if in your head it makes sense, try it, feel it, assimilate or discard.....hope this helps

Alex_Simmons/RST

dirtyginge wrote:

I recently had a gait analysis at the drummond clinic, including using the powertrainer software to analyse my pedal stroke.

That would be with a Computrainer SpinScan?
Hmmm.

dirtyginge wrote:

So using the software of the powertrainer turbo to analyse the efficiency of my pedal stroke

The software has nothing to do with the efficiency of your stroke. It's a fallacy.

Unless you were measuring your power output and the energy you were metabolising (via, say, a gas exchange analysis during a VO2max test), then I'm afraid what you are measuring is SpinScan, not efficiency.

SpinScan has no defined correlation with performance.

dirtyginge

On a very basic level ( cmon, ive just stopped putting beer on my cornflakes), its not about complete biological efficiency, but telling when you are cycling full circles, or when you are just powermashing to lift one fat stump over the top of the crank with the sheer power of the quad on the other crank leading to a very jerky action...

For the OP...listen to the sound of the trainer when you do one leg drills, if the sound is irregular when you do the drills, then your leg stroke is not fully efficient...you are aiming for a nice clean continous tone from the trainer.

Utilising more of the complete circle will surely be better than just pushing from half way the downstroke....at a very beginner software.....we all got to start somewhere

That i believe is what the OP is asking, whether one legged drills will help him become a better cyclist, and i guess if he is asking that question, then he is at a level where gas exchange vo2 testing is not relevant....

NJK

I actually watched hundreds of cyclists climbing the Col du Tourmalet, amateurs, pros, kids, you name it i saw it. The biggest influence on pedal stroke is bike set-up, nothing really to do with training. I saw a better pedalling technique by a young lad on a mountain bike than some serious cyclists who have terrible positions which stop the correct firing pattern! Concentrate on pushing down more with more power : )

ShutUpLegs

NJK wrote:

Concentrate on pushing down more with more power : )

Pedal harder :?:

NJK

ShutUpLegs wrote:

NJK wrote:

Concentrate on pushing down more with more power : )

Pedal harder :?:

Simply push down more on downstroke, if that means harder then yes..

Alex_Simmons/RST

dirtyginge wrote:

For the OP...listen to the sound of the trainer when you do one leg drills, if the sound is irregular when you do the drills, then your leg stroke is not fully efficient...you are aiming for a nice clean continous tone from the trainer.

No, you are aiming to improve power output. That has very little to do with how your trainer sounds.

And an irregular sound does not mean one is more efficient.

dirtyginge wrote:

That i believe is what the OP is asking, whether one legged drills will help him become a better cyclist, and i guess if he is asking that question, then he is at a level where gas exchange vo2 testing is not relevant....

Sure, but the answer to the question is "no".

dw300

I'm really interested in this at the mo, but I think people are having trouble putting their finger on why you should develop a glorious stroke ..

It not an issue of how efficient your body is at burning fuel and oxygen .. it's surely a matter of managing which muscles you are using to power the pedal stroke. Eg. if you simply mash with your quads you burn them out while your hamstrings are fresh as daisies, surely in that case you won't go as far or as fast as someone who actively recruits every muscle below the waist spreading the stress on their muscles and not building up fatigue in them so quickly.

Isn't this what everyone is getting at?

Alex_Simmons/RST

dw300 wrote:

Isn't this what everyone is getting at?

Don't know, but it's more about good bike fit than attempting to change pedal action.

dirtyginge

Any easy to share rules for a good bike fit, apart from seeing a pro fitter ?

Im sure there are many other factors that can help cycling power output. Nutrition, sleep, cadence work, long miles workouts, tyres that dont weigh a kilo,. light rims etc...for the benefit of the OP, is there a summary post anywhere that can really help him narrow down a route through the jungle of info ?

Alex_Simmons/RST

dirtyginge wrote:

Any easy to share rules for a good bike fit,

No matter what forum you ask, someone will tell you that your seat is too high.

Perhaps check out this fellow's blog:
http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/

lots of stuff to read there.

dirtyginge wrote:

Im sure there are many other factors that can help cycling power output. Nutrition, sleep, cadence work, long miles workouts, tyres that dont weigh a kilo,. light rims etc...for the benefit of the OP, is there a summary post anywhere that can really help him narrow down a route through the jungle of info ?

It's the subject of many books, let alone a summary post.

Pithy Power Proverb: "Maximise the power you can produce, minimise the power you must produce." - Jim Martin

technique

dw300 wrote:

I'm really interested in this at the mo, but I think people are having trouble putting their finger on why you should develop a glorious stroke ..

It not an issue of how efficient your body is at burning fuel and oxygen .. it's surely a matter of managing which muscles you are using to power the pedal stroke. Eg. if you simply mash with your quads you burn them out while your hamstrings are fresh as daisies, surely in that case you won't go as far or as fast as someone who actively recruits every muscle below the waist spreading the stress on their muscles and not building up fatigue in them so quickly.

Isn't this what everyone is getting at?

You are correct, pedaling efficiency has nothing to do with your body burning fuel and oxygen, it's all about what percentage of the force you are applying to the pedal is converted into crank torque. Mashing is ideal for acceleration purposes but it is highly inefficient and highly stressful on both knees and lower back. Months of intensive training with powercranks have confirmed that hip flexors cannot be trained to apply effective crank torque and even if they could, the more you pull up on the back stroke, the more you lose on the downstroke.. The extra muscles required for highly efficient and most effective pedaling are those in your rear end together with your calf muscles, ankles and arms which with the quads can give constant max torque from 12 to 3+ o'c, unlike mashing where max torque can only be applied around the 3 o'c mark. The combination of both legs and arms make this semi circular technique a self bike fitting technique. Maybe Alex can state what percentage of his mashing pedal force in each stroke is converted into crank torque.

Alex_Simmons/RST

technique wrote:

You are correct, pedaling efficiency has nothing to do with your body burning fuel and oxygen, it's all about what percentage of the force you are applying to the pedal is converted into crank torque.

Decided to redefine efficiency have we?

technique wrote:

Maybe Alex can state what percentage of his mashing pedal force in each stroke is converted into crank torque.

When did I say anything about mashing?

Give the strawman a break, please.

dirtyginge

[ You are correct, pedaling efficiency has nothing to do with your body burning fuel and oxygen, it's all about what percentage of the force you are applying to the pedal is converted into crank torque. Mashing is ideal for acceleration purposes but it is highly inefficient and highly stressful on both knees and lower back. Months of intensive training with powercranks have confirmed that hip flexors cannot be trained to apply effective crank torque and even if they could, the more you pull up on the back stroke, the more you lose on the downstroke.. The extra muscles required for highly efficient and most effective pedaling are those in your rear end together with your calf muscles, ankles and arms which with the quads can give constant max torque from 12 to 3+ o'c, unlike mashing where max torque can only be applied around the 3 o'c mark. The combination of both legs and arms make this semi circular technique a self bike fitting technique. Maybe Alex can state what percentage of his mashing pedal force in each stroke is converted into crank torque.[/quote]


ah thanks chaps....after 3 posts in total i was just about to never post again, at least someone gets what i mean....

I guess the answer about how you will benefit from one leg drills is that it depends on how bad it is in the first place

dw300

dirtyginge wrote:

I guess the answer about how you will benefit from one leg drills is that it depends on how bad it is in the first place

I'd say you've hit the nail on the head here.

You've got a lot of guys on here that have been cycling for a long time. I would guess that in the grand scheme of things that what you need to be a good cyclist is simply a decade of good hard training. To them learning a half decent pedal stroke happened before they even started training seriously, or at least took such a short time in comparison that any development of it had no performance effect. I'd say your body will naturally find a good stroke anyway, and developing fitness and power helps you to find it faster, and so that's why there is the belief that focusing on it yields negligible gains in comparison to regular training. Just just my opinion though.

A few of weeks of really concentrating on what your legs are doing would almost certainly help a novice, but once you've got it just work on your power and endurance.

technique

dirtyginge wrote:

I guess the answer about how you will benefit from one leg drills is that it depends on how bad it is in the first place

It is supposed to improve blood circulation in the legs and teaches you the objectives of the circular pedaling style and to unweight the rising pedal if you are a masher.

Alex_Simmons/RST

technique wrote:

It is supposed to improve blood circulation in the legs and teaches you the objectives of the circular pedaling style and to unweight the rising pedal if you are a masher.

How about talking about what it does (or does not) do, rather than belief based thought bubbles?

The objective of training is to improve performance (power). If training does not do this, then move onto something that does.

d87heaven

Interesting about applying to pedal from 1 to 3. So the max you can apply to the pedal is body weight at 3 oclock . Therefore the ideal saddle position should be - whilst on the pedals at 3 oclock and 9 with the bum lifted off. Directly below is center of gravity and you can only apply your own weight to the pedal as all you have is gravity pulling you down....unless you pull on the bars?

P_Tucker

d87heaven wrote:

Interesting about applying to pedal from 1 to 3. So the max you can apply to the pedal is body weight at 3 oclock . Therefore the ideal saddle position should be - whilst on the pedals at 3 oclock and 9 with the bum lifted off. Directly below is center of gravity and you can only apply your own weight to the pedal as all you have is gravity pulling you down....unless you pull on the bars?

Er, how often do you think you're pushing with sufficient force that your own bodyweight limits you? If you guessed "almost never", then you're right.

d87heaven

P_Tucker wrote:

d87heaven wrote:

Interesting about applying to pedal from 1 to 3. So the max you can apply to the pedal is body weight at 3 oclock . Therefore the ideal saddle position should be - whilst on the pedals at 3 oclock and 9 with the bum lifted off. Directly below is center of gravity and you can only apply your own weight to the pedal as all you have is gravity pulling you down....unless you pull on the bars?

Er, how often do you think you're pushing with sufficient force that your own bodyweight limits you? If you guessed "almost never", then you're right.

And your point is?

P_Tucker

That your reasoning is wrong, obv

d87heaven

P_Tucker wrote:

That your reasoning is wrong, obv

Could you expand your reasoning a bit without being obtuse?

I did state maximum you can apply not the maximum you always apply.

One other question, where exactly is the best fore aft saddle position?

Alex_Simmons/RST

d87heaven wrote:

Interesting about applying to pedal from 1 to 3. So the max you can apply to the pedal is body weight at 3 oclock . Therefore the ideal saddle position should be - whilst on the pedals at 3 oclock and 9 with the bum lifted off. Directly below is center of gravity and you can only apply your own weight to the pedal as all you have is gravity pulling you down....unless you pull on the bars?

This is the position to apply maximal force on the pedals:

bahzob

If anyone reading this thread still has an open mind (big ask I know) and actually wants to try to improve their cycling skip watch this to 7.30 and watch to end.

http://wattbike.com/uk/blog/post/rebecca_romero_interview_part_two

And look at the picture here:
http://wattbike.com/uk/blog/post/proving_the_point_an_olympic_champions_polar_view

If you can maintain a pedal stroke that resembles the one on the display under high loads and during periods of high stress/exhaustion you will ride better.

Ofc cynics will now post to say Rebecca Romero was paid a shedload of money to say this and the rider in the second link is wrong and/or the Wattbike's display can't be trusted and anyway time trying to improve your pedaling skill is wasted, all you need to do is ride your bike. Whatever... both won gold medals, I know who I choose to respect/believe.

This and similar debates remind me of the early days of power meters. Then folks like me who used them were in a minority and treated with derision by those who said they were an expensive waste of money since all you needed to do to get better was ride more/harder. Time has proved me right.

Power measurement, while now accepted as the norm, is limited at the moment so the information like that on the Wattbike is not available to most riders nor can it be used on the road. That will change and in a few years you will be able to get real-time feedback, like the polar views above, on how well you are pedaling as you actually ride. When that happens threads like this will be relics and replaced by ones asking how to make best use of this information.

dw300

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

d87heaven wrote:

Interesting about applying to pedal from 1 to 3. So the max you can apply to the pedal is body weight at 3 oclock . Therefore the ideal saddle position should be - whilst on the pedals at 3 oclock and 9 with the bum lifted off. Directly below is center of gravity and you can only apply your own weight to the pedal as all you have is gravity pulling you down....unless you pull on the bars?

This is the position to apply maximal force on the pedals:

And you need a lot of power to cycle up a 50º gradient!

Alex_Simmons/RST

When I took the issue of "circular" pedaling up with Wattbike back in 2008, this is the response I got:

"Hi Alex,

I'm the sports scientist for Wattbike - I agree with all that you say and I can see how our text etc could seriously mislead - not our intention - I will rewrite it in a clearer manner!"

"some confusion with our marketing guys between pedalling in circles and the force profile which actually shows the left and right leg downstroke"

The marketing guys won out in what stayed on the website.

Alex_Simmons/RST

dw300 wrote:

And you need a lot of power to cycle up a 50º gradient!

Quite.

The point of that angle shot was to show why a track Kilo rider would do some deadlift work. For the first pedal stroke. After that not so much value. That's Hoy BTW.

dw300

Yeh I figured there was probably a reason for the angle. Noticed it was Hoy from the filename.

Are you staying up for the Olympic TTs?

technique

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

This is the position to apply maximal force on the pedals:

Only because at 3 o'c 100% of this pedal force is converted into crank torque. He could probably apply almost the same max force to the pedal at 1 o'c but the resultant crank torque would be seriously reduced or at 12 o'c where crank torque would be zero. With the correct technique or knack you can create the same 3 o'c max torque effect from 12 to 3 o'c. That's how Anquetil did it and why he is still regarded as the world's top (non technical) TT rider.

Alex_Simmons/RST

technique wrote:

Only because at 3 o'c 100% of this pedal force is converted into crank torque. He could probably apply almost the same max force to the pedal at 1 o'c but the resultant crank torque would be seriously reduced or at 12 o'c where crank torque would be zero. With the correct technique or knack you can create the same 3 o'c max torque effect from 12 to 3 o'c. That's how Anquetil did it and why he is still regarded as the world's top (non technical) TT rider.

this place isn't going to be the same again....