The Dutch fall from Tour grace.
Comments
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I hate to add to your woes but he is in the same club/following the same bike upbringing as Laura Trott and he has been riding cyclox from day one as the club is big into X and gives training for it every week through the winter.0
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Perhaps they need to build a hill of some sort in Holland to practice on a bit more?+++++++++++++++++++++
we are the proud, the few, Descendents.
Panama - finally putting a nail in the economic theory of the trickle down effect.0 -
So Marianne's success is actually a distraction, a temporary blip in the statistics that otherwise show an overall long-term decline?0
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Le Commentateur wrote:So Marianne's success is actually a distraction, a temporary blip in the statistics that otherwise show an overall long-term decline?
Didn't realise she rode the Tour
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From observing the scene around here I have a theory. Because holland has the Topography it does the races are won by big guys who can handle the wind and the flat because they can put the power down. With the exception of the one or two races a year around Limburg, those guys will win all the races and rise to the top of the junior ranks.
Unfortunately this does not make them into decent GC riders because their climbing is nt goods enough when you get to the topmost levels. Any young potential GC winner never gets the opportunity becasue he doesnt win enough races...
I also suspect that because Rabbobank will employ any Dutch rider, thy don't have enough of "Stick" to get a desire to win. No problem if your team is going to drop you, because Rabbo will pick you up anyway.We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
I just meant the profile of Dutch cycling in general (maybe excluding the perpetual Belgian–Dutch rivalry in cyclocross).Rick Chasey wrote:Le Commentateur wrote:So Marianne's success is actually a distraction, a temporary blip in the statistics that otherwise show an overall long-term decline?
Didn't realise she rode the Tour.0 -
... Rabobank will employ any Dutch rider
It's therefore unfortunate that their best riders in the last couple of seasons have been Spanish.
Over-hyping their Dutch riders has been a perennial problem, going back to Boogerd.
Andy0 -
ratherbeintobago wrote:... Rabobank will employ any Dutch rider
It's therefore unfortunate that their best riders in the last couple of seasons have been Spanish.
Let's not forget Oscar Freire, riding for them between 2003 and last year.0 -
A good day for the Dutch (by proxy). if we concentrate harder next time we can make sure it is a proper cloggy who crosses the line first.
COME ON JOHNNY!!!!0 -
A reminder of "the good old days" when Steven Rooks and Gert-Jan Theunisse were in their prime.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTHhWf6BSEM
Does this help?0 -
Rabobank have the talent there to do well - Gesink came 6th in the tour in 2010 as a young rider and last year Mollema came 4th in the Vuelta and Kruijswijk came 8th in the Giro. These results dont suggest they would be dominating the tour at all but maybe they could be expected to do what Radioshack are they doing this year, ie quite a few guys in the top 15.
However, their main problem has been the crashes, especially the big one on stage 6 as it seemed that every Dutch hope was caught up in it. Mollema retired on the stage to Le Toussuire with his injuries, Gesink has retired too after limping on with his injuries. Kruijswijk was sporting a big scar down one leg on the ride today. On that day Poels had ruptured spleen, kidney, broken ribs etc and Westra (2nd in Paris-Nice) also came down.
Not sure why they should be worse hit than others but i cant help thinking how Radioshack (Kloden, Horner, Leipheimer, Brajkovic) crashed a lot last year, and Garmin(Hesjedal, Danielson, vandevelde, Martin(?) for GC + farrar as sprinter) and Rabobank have been badly hit this year. The thing they have in common is a lot of potential GC guys. Radioshack are surviving better this year but they have had the advantage of Cancellara in yellow early on meaning they were always at the front. Maybe teams with a lot of GC guys fall into the 'too many chiefs and not enough indians' situation, ie are there too many people to look after and take to the front? I have no idea how well people like Ten Dam do on the flat but maybe another flat domestique should have been taken? They did have Renshaw in there as well although as an ex-lead-out man maybe he can normally find his own route in the peloton. Then again, a team like Sky put all their eggs in one basket last year (and in 2010) and Rabo did the same last year i think - only for Gesink to crash. Maybe for Rabo this year there could have been a happy medium, with Gesink and one of Mollema/Kruijswijk, LLS and then the rest as a support team on the flat. No worries about climbing domestiques, let the road sort out which of the three mentioned is team leader, etc. Its easy to say that from here though...
The problem here really is that too many teams are too keen to get too many people to the front - there will always be someone caught out just behind the front unless someone can think of a way to stop there being so much pressure. To this end i do wonder sometimes if people least able to get to the front would be better off just chilling a bit - you may end up caught behind a crash and lose a bit of time but surely that is better than all the effort to try and battle your way forward only to end up retiring from a crash?0 -
My theory is that the Dutch aren't hungry enough. I go out riding in most weathers, all year round. If it's a bit wet or cold there's hardly anyone else about, but wait until the sun shines and the Dutch are out in droves. I'm talking guys who ride for pleasure, but I think this reflects the Dutch view of life, maybe up to pro level. Too relaxed. Too many benefits. While the Belgies are beasting themselves around Flanders in the p!ssing rain the Dutch are chilling out with a beer and a big slice of vlaai.
Will be shouting for Johnny though - Go Johnny Go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTWpS6JlSFQ (warning - contains singing in Dutch).Head Hands Heart Lungs Legs0 -
pottssteve wrote:My theory is that the Dutch aren't hungry enough. I go out riding in most weathers, all year round. If it's a bit wet or cold there's hardly anyone else about, but wait until the sun shines and the Dutch are out in droves. I'm talking guys who ride for pleasure, but I think this reflects the Dutch view of life, maybe up to pro level. Too relaxed. Too many benefits. While the Belgies are beasting themselves around Flanders in the p!ssing rain the Dutch are chilling out with a beer and a big slice of vlaai.
Will be shouting for Johnny though - Go Johnny Go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTWpS6JlSFQ (warning - contains singing in Dutch).
First of all, Limburg is certainly not representative to the rest of the Kingdom, and secondly, what kind of (presumably financial) benefits for staying at home on a rainy day are you talking about?
Procycling is entertainment to most of the Dutch and the vast majority do not care about Dutch GT winners, although perhaps the odd stage might be nice...
(Some might even say that procycling is not a particularly honest sport as it is too tainted with the dope-brush, but of course this will invite all sorts of ducth wacky baccy jokes, anyway....)
As you wrote at 06:59CET, I'm guessing you just came back from a ride - in the pissing rain?!0 -
Ooo, did I touch a nerve?
I know that Limburg is not representative of the Netherlands as a whole - it's got nasty little hills. I am suggesting that the relaxed Dutch way of life has also permeated upwards from the leisure rider through to the higher echelons of the cycling fraternity, leading to a lack of hunger and, subsequently, results. I am not peddling the old cliché of dope smoking Dutchies.
I did write at 06:59, shortly before I went out for a ride. It threatened rain but has cleared up now - for a while. Quite windy though, thanks for asking.
SteveHead Hands Heart Lungs Legs0 -
Not sure if this has been mentioned above as I only skimmed the posts but [light hearted troll mode] Dutch results have all but disappeared in the Tour coincidentally over the time since the peloton has allegedly been cleaning up. Draw your own conclusions [/light hearted troll mode] 0
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Pross wrote:Not sure if this has been mentioned above as I only skimmed the posts but [light hearted troll mode] Dutch results have all but disappeared in the Tour coincidentally over the time since the peloton has allegedly been cleaning up. Draw your own conclusions [/light hearted troll mode]
Not true. There weren't any spectacular results for the dutch to write home about in GT events to start with [despite the ...] :shock:0 -
skylla wrote:Pross wrote:Not sure if this has been mentioned above as I only skimmed the posts but [light hearted troll mode] Dutch results have all but disappeared in the Tour coincidentally over the time since the peloton has allegedly been cleaning up. Draw your own conclusions [/light hearted troll mode]
Not true. There weren't any spectacular results for the dutch to write home about in GT events to start with [despite the ...] :shock:
I think there were some "questionable" mountain results though and Rick mentioned the wins on the Alpe. Theunisse was one of my favourite riders when I first started watching the Tour though.0 -
pottssteve wrote:Ooo, did I touch a nerve?
I know that Limburg is not representative of the Netherlands as a whole - it's got nasty little hills. I am suggesting that the relaxed Dutch way of life has also permeated upwards from the leisure rider through to the higher echelons of the cycling fraternity, leading to a lack of hunger and, subsequently, results. I am not peddling the old cliché of dope smoking Dutchies.
I did write at 06:59, shortly before I went out for a ride. It threatened rain but has cleared up now - for a while. Quite windy though, thanks for asking.
Steve
I merely am pointing out the flaw in you thinking as you could extend your theory to all that the dutch turn their hand to. Which is patently wrong as they do punch above their weight as a small country - just not in cycling [as many do not really care about GT results due to its dirty reputation - that's my less racist but perhaps more provocative theory].
Shame it didn't rain on your parade! [that's a joke]0 -
Pross wrote:skylla wrote:Pross wrote:Not sure if this has been mentioned above as I only skimmed the posts but [light hearted troll mode] Dutch results have all but disappeared in the Tour coincidentally over the time since the peloton has allegedly been cleaning up. Draw your own conclusions [/light hearted troll mode]
Not true. There weren't any spectacular results for the dutch to write home about in GT events to start with [despite the ...] :shock:
I think there were some "questionable" mountain results though and Rick mentioned the wins on the Alpe. Theunisse was one of my favourite riders when I first started watching the Tour though.
Yes the Dutch have adopted the alpe. But last to win on the huez in the tdf was gert-jan in 1989. Writing home on the back of the same postcard over the last quarter of a century....0 -
oh, by the way for those not initiated to dutch GT cycling glory: the last Dutch GT win was in 1980 [TdF; Joop Zoetemelk], the last TdF stage win in 1980 [Pieter Weening]0
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skylla wrote:pottssteve wrote:Ooo, did I touch a nerve?
I know that Limburg is not representative of the Netherlands as a whole - it's got nasty little hills. I am suggesting that the relaxed Dutch way of life has also permeated upwards from the leisure rider through to the higher echelons of the cycling fraternity, leading to a lack of hunger and, subsequently, results. I am not peddling the old cliché of dope smoking Dutchies.
I did write at 06:59, shortly before I went out for a ride. It threatened rain but has cleared up now - for a while. Quite windy though, thanks for asking.
Steve
I merely am pointing out the flaw in you thinking as you could extend your theory in all that the dutch turn their hand too. Which is patently wrong as they do punch above their weight - just not in cycling [as many do not really care about GT results due to its dirty reputation - that's my less racist but perhaps more provocative theory].
Shame it didn't rain on your parade! [that's a joke]
Wow - you really are Dutch - telling me when you made a joke is so caring!
Don't get me wrong, I like living in the Netherlands and know some really nice Dutch people; my neighbours are great. We live in a country that has great social cohesion and an advanced and generous welfare state. Dutch systems, in my experience, are complicated and sometimes slow and frustrating, but there is an emphasis on fairness and getting it right. Consequently, the Dutch are broadly comfortable with their lot. Rabobank in particular picks up an enormous tab, and has done for quite a while. This is not the sort of atmosphere in which to breed riders who are used to fighting for everything they can get.
Several of my Dutch colleagues have pointed to the success of Vacansoleil, yearning for Rabobank to ride in a similar guttsy way as they have certainly shown more of the fighting spirit this season, but unfortunately they have had a disappointing Tour so far.
SteveHead Hands Heart Lungs Legs0 -
Surely Boogerd got one in the late 90s?skylla wrote:oh, by the way for those not initiated to dutch GT cycling glory: the last Dutch GT win was in 1980 [TdF; Joop Zoetemelk], the last TdF stage win in 1980 [Pieter Weening]0 -
Le Commentateur wrote:
Surely Boogerd got one in the late 90s?skylla wrote:oh, by the way for those not initiated to dutch GT cycling glory: the last Dutch GT win was in 1980 [TdF; Joop Zoetemelk], the last TdF stage win in 1980 [Pieter Weening]
That's a typo.
Weening was the last winner in 2005.
By about 1mm.
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Rabobank needs a complete overhaul of their system (training, recruiting and developing new talent, management, etc) or they need to go. A Sky approach would be ideal (a point for further discussions I am sure!) and yes Vacansoleil are showing, at least part, of the way.
Just don't walk yourself into a canal thinking that a 'dutch laid-back attitude' translates as 'doing f*ck all' to your foreign ears. That's all.0 -
skylla wrote:Rabobank needs a complete overhaul of their system (training, recruiting and developing new talent, management, etc) or they need to go. A Sky approach would be ideal (a point for further discussions I am sure!) and yes Vacansoleil are showing, at least part, of the way.
Just don't walk yourself into a canal thinking that a 'dutch laid-back attitude' translates as 'doing f*ck all' to your foreign ears. That's all.
That's so Dutch!
It's unlikely as there aren't many canals in Limburg........ Head Hands Heart Lungs Legs0 -
Rabobank obviously can find the talent.
They're imbedded in Dutch cycling all the way down to the grassroots.
I don't think that part is the problem.
It's when things start getting serious that things go wayward. They obviously have the talent, and they're always the next best thing with great numbers, and then they disappear after a promising say, 3rd on a stage of 8th overall.0 -
pottssteve wrote:skylla wrote:Rabobank needs a complete overhaul of their system (training, recruiting and developing new talent, management, etc) or they need to go. A Sky approach would be ideal (a point for further discussions I am sure!) and yes Vacansoleil are showing, at least part, of the way.
Just don't walk yourself into a canal thinking that a 'dutch laid-back attitude' translates as 'doing f*ck all' to your foreign ears. That's all.
That's so Dutch! It's unlikely as there aren't many canals in Limburg........
pottssteve wrote:
I did write at 06:59, shortly before I went out for a ride. It threatened rain but has cleared up now - for a while. Quite windy though, thanks for asking.
By the same token, there shouldn't have been any wind on your ride either this morning. It's Limburg, not Zeeland! So man up! :roll:0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Le Commentateur wrote:
Surely Boogerd got one in the late 90s?skylla wrote:oh, by the way for those not initiated to dutch GT cycling glory: the last Dutch GT win was in 1980 [TdF; Joop Zoetemelk], the last TdF stage win in 1980 [Pieter Weening]
That's a typo.
Weening was the last winner in 2005.
By about 1mm.
Ha! Weening was born in '81! thanks for the correction, Rick0 -
skylla wrote:pottssteve wrote:skylla wrote:Rabobank needs a complete overhaul of their system (training, recruiting and developing new talent, management, etc) or they need to go. A Sky approach would be ideal (a point for further discussions I am sure!) and yes Vacansoleil are showing, at least part, of the way.
Just don't walk yourself into a canal thinking that a 'dutch laid-back attitude' translates as 'doing f*ck all' to your foreign ears. That's all.
That's so Dutch! It's unlikely as there aren't many canals in Limburg........
pottssteve wrote:
I did write at 06:59, shortly before I went out for a ride. It threatened rain but has cleared up now - for a while. Quite windy though, thanks for asking.
By the same token, there shouldn't have been any wind on your ride either this morning. It's Limburg, not Zeeland! So man up! :roll:
I ventured south into Belgium (Plombiers/Aubel) - 'cos I'm hardcore, me! Head Hands Heart Lungs Legs0 -
Re. one of my posts above:
This, Steve, is what it looks like when "the wind blows" in the west of the country:
[45secs in] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8qgjyqibwY
But you might say they're out on a ride because they don't do 'vlaai' in the polders?0
