Chris Froome (spoilers)

Daz555

duplicate

thamacdaddy

I would be interested i how well he would do out of Sky. Like Renshaw I think sometimes members of a team don't do so well outside of the environment and setup they started to shine in.

How much of what Froome can do is part of having the right setup at Sky? We perhaps will know sooner or later.

Pross

I think Froome just needs to be patient. If Wiggins wins this Tour then he will have earned the honour to defend it next season but if it is a very hilly route (which I suspect it will be) and Wiggins looks like he's struggling then I'm sure the team will hand over the reins. If not, the year after is likely to see Froome going is as team leader and he'll still have a few chances for the win.

rebs

I still don't beleive Froom has the decipline to go without Wiggins. He always looks like he wants to go ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK up a hill. Which kind of explains why he has good stages and bad stages before last years Vuelta.

the way Wiggins climbs is a massive help for Froome. Take Wiggins away from Froome he'll stuggle. But Wiggins without Froome is still competitive in the GC's. I still dislike the fact Froome does his turn flakes off but still ends up at the back of the group climbing strong. He should be emptying the tank for Wiggins.

Daz555

If Wiggins stays in Yellow there is no way Froome will get the top spot at Sky in 2013 for the Tour no matter what the course.

ilm_zero7

rebs wrote:

He should be emptying the tank for Wiggins.

my perception is that if he emptied the tank, Wiggins would be a km or more back down the hill. Froome is a stylish rider, and great climber...

much though I want Wiggins to win this year, I hope the new order prevails next year and support shifts.

thamacdaddy

ILM Zero7 wrote:

rebs wrote:

He should be emptying the tank for Wiggins.

my perception is that if he emptied the tank, Wiggins would be a km or more back down the hill. Froome is a stylish rider, and great climber...

much though I want Wiggins to win this year, I hope the new order prevails next year and support shifts.

So you want him to win but then next year you want Sky to say "Sorry brad you had a go last year and we know you are defending champion but we are supporting chris this year"?

never gonna happen.

I think it's as posted above, Sky will still return with Wiggins as leader but will wait and see what shakes out and focus on simply the best man for the job.

The bigger question becomes with Sky possibly having a defending champion who is still competitive next year what support will Cav be given and how will he feel about that?

Yellow Peril

It could suit them both to have one to lead the Tour and the other to lead the Vuelta. I'd reward Froome with the lead role in the Giro as well next year. 2 GT leads to Froome and the Tour to Wiggo. Fair swap?

Pross

People are possibly over-hyping Froome here. We haven't seen if he could genuinely win. Wiggins has put 40 odd seconds into him over the prologue and time trial which are the only tangible things we can go on. Pulling out a few seconds in getting the stage win over a short, steep sprint and putting in an 'accidental' attack on your team leader and briefly opening up a small gap does not mean Froome would have gone romping to victory in the mountains and opening up a lead over Wiggins. In reality, had he been on a different team his fate may well have been the same as that of Nibs, VDB and Evans when they have attacked. The bulk of the mountain work has been done by Rogers and Porte, Wiggins has closed some gaps himself at times. If Froome had gone to another team then Sky would just eat away at his attacks as they did with the others and his role would be filled by Henao, Uran or Nordhaug who would have done the Tenerife training etc.

Of course, if he now moves away from Sky, attacks in the mountains and Sky drag him back people will be using this 'drop in form' as conclusive evidence he was doping in his time at Sky because that is how cycling fans work

rdt

Pross wrote:

Of course, if he now moves away from Sky, attacks in the mountains and Sky drag him back people will be using this 'drop in form' as conclusive evidence he was doping in his time at Sky because that is how cycling fans work

That's what I'd like to see tested. Froome on another team pitching his jump vs. the Sky Diesels reeling him in. No idea what the outcome would be, hence the interest.

rick_chasey

It's too late now for him anyway.

He's not going to gain any time tomorrow because of the descent (though it's not a particularly tricky one). and there's only one day left after that.

If he is faster than Wiggins in the TT, it won't be by much, and it's unlikely that he is.

Tom Butcher

I think there is still an outside chance Froome wins this Tour. If Wiggins cracks then Froome isn't that far back.

Personally if it were me and Nibali went up the road I'd go with him - you don't get that many chances to win the Tour and if he's stronger than Wiggo then why not. If Cunego had played by team orders he wouldn't have a Giro on his palmares. Contador will probably be back next year along with Andy Schleck and most likely a more mountainous parcours - you take your opportunities when they come up because a chance to win the Tour may not come round again.

As for next year - even if Wiggo wins this one I don't think it's nailed on he gets to defend it in 2013 - Sky are pretty ruthless and Froome is the younger man and if we get the rumoured Alpe D'Huez double next year that isn't going to suit Wiggo at all.

calvjones

Tom Butcher wrote:

I think there is still an outside chance Froome wins this Tour. If Wiggins cracks then Froome isn't that far back.

Personally if it were me and Nibali went up the road I'd go with him - you don't get that many chances to win the Tour and if he's stronger than Wiggo then why not. If Cunego had played by team orders he wouldn't have a Giro on his palmares. Contador will probably be back next year along with Andy Schleck and most likely a more mountainous parcours - you take your opportunities when they come up because a chance to win the Tour may not come round again.

As for next year - even if Wiggo wins this one I don't think it's nailed on he gets to defend it in 2013 - Sky are pretty ruthless and Froome is the younger man and if we get the rumoured Alpe D'Huez double next year that isn't going to suit Wiggo at all.

Wiggins sells because he's an Olympian Gold and people think he's a Brit. Froome won't cos he's not and people know he's from the Colonies. How is Sky's ruthlessness going to benefit him? They'll get more coverage from a plucky podium (and fvcky press conferences) by Brad than a CF Tour win (1 year after Britain had one anyway).

Calder

I think it's amazing how many people are suggesting he act like a mercinary. Part of me almost wants him to try, only to fail really miserably. That'd put him in his place.

It's a team sport, BW has earned the right over the last few years to be team leader, and he is showing he's worthy of it. For now Chris Froome needs to just accept it (he may well have done) - he'll get his chance if he's patient and does his job. Whereas if he acts selfishly ...............

Tom Butcher

@calvjones - yes I agree Froome not being perceived as a Brit is a problem for him - but maybe as his profile grows that'll change - especially if he starts winning races. Say he gets a good second here and wins the Vuelta - I don't see how Sky can keep him and not make him Tour leader next year - especially if the parcours is more mountainous.

@ calder - don't get me wrong I want Wiggo to win and I hope he can show he's the strongest in the next two days - but *if* Froome is clearly stronger than him I don't see how Wiggo will have earned the right to win the Tour over a stronger rider on the same team. He earned the right to go into the race as team leader - but all along he said that was contingent on who was clearly the stronger rider. Ultimately it's a bike race and if the two strongest riders are on the same team I want to see them racing - I know that might not suit Sky but as a fan I'd like to see it. If Wiggo wins because Froome is kept on the leash it's almost going to devalue the win.

greeny12

Tom Butcher wrote:

If Wiggo wins because Froome is kept on the leash it's almost going to devalue the win.

Maybe to some (but by no means all) bike racing diehards but certainly not to the vast, vast numbers of folk who are suddenly taking an interest in this sport for the first time, and they are the ones that the sponsors are over the moon about. I can't believe the number of Tour-related comments from strangers I've had while out on the bike in team kit over the past week or so. Normally we get shunned like lepers on cafe stops...

derbygrimpeur

calvjones wrote:

Wiggins sells because he's an Olympian Gold and people think he's a Brit.

Oh come on, why do people keep banging on about this. His mother is English (father Australian) and he's lived in the UK since he was 2 years old. He's British, END OF.

Tom > I think the problem with Froome/Wiggins going head to head is it could very likely result in one or both of them cracking and letting Nibbles/Cuddles back in the race. Sky are obviously playing the cautious/sensible approach in wanting the top two steps on the podium. Can't really blame them for that. If there was a bigger gap back to 3rd place, then maybe it might be different...

calvjones

derbygrimpeur wrote:

calvjones wrote:

Wiggins sells because he's an Olympian Gold and people think he's a Brit.

Oh come on, why do people keep banging on about this. His mother is English (father Australian) and he's lived in the UK since he was 2 years old. He's British, END OF.

I personally keep banging on about it because it gets a rise

Of course he's British.



And Australian.

derbygrimpeur

calvjones wrote:

I personally keep banging on about it because it gets a rise

you must be bored.

rebs

The other issue with Froome is the times he has been given out and out leadership he has just disappeared. He has had his chances. Notably Tour of California etc.

The other impressive thing is that he hasn't had many crashes recently. He has been nicknamed Crash in the past and early days in Sky :P

Daz555

Tom Butcher wrote:

@ calder - don't get me wrong I want Wiggo to win and I hope he can show he's the strongest in the next two days - but *if* Froome is clearly stronger than him I don't see how Wiggo will have earned the right to win the Tour over a stronger rider on the same team. He earned the right to go into the race as team leader - but all along he said that was contingent on who was clearly the stronger rider. Ultimately it's a bike race and if the two strongest riders are on the same team I want to see them racing - I know that might not suit Sky but as a fan I'd like to see it. If Wiggo wins because Froome is kept on the leash it's almost going to devalue the win.

If Froome does the job he is being paid for then we will never know if he is stronger this year. Wiggins will blow him away regardless in the TT and in the mountains he will be riding at the pace chosen by Wiggins and sitting where he is told by Sky. He may be stronger, he may be not. At the moment there is zero evidence to suggest he is stronger - this is not Froomes fault, just the way it is.

The only way we will get to see if Froome really has more than Wiggins on the hills is if Nibali or Evans etc get so far ahead of a completely cracked Wiggins that they feel Wiggins' chance has gone and they let Froome chase them.

I just don't see Wiggins cracking completely - he looks far too comfortable. And even if Nibali and Evans etc do get a decent break which Wiggins can't pull back - he is far enough in front to not panic and there will be no need to send Froome up the road to chase them. Wiggins has time on his side and another TT in the bank.

I reckon if his tour depended on it (ie he was losing) Wiggins would take 2 mins out of this field in the last TT.

calvjones

derbygrimpeur wrote:

calvjones wrote:

I personally keep banging on about it because it gets a rise

you must be bored.

We both must

derbygrimpeur

hence why we are on a cycling forum and not working

calvjones

derbygrimpeur wrote:

hence why we are on a cycling forum and not working

tidying my bloody office and anything is sweet relief!

tremayne

Perhaps the biggest real (GC) talking point of this years TDF is the Wiggins/Froome debate.

I accept that when Froome lets loose on a particularly steep section, it’s very easy to be wowed and (imo) be lulled into a conclusion of ‘Chris is stonger than Brad – ergo Chris would be the winner were it not for team orders’. Froome certainly seems to have reached this conclusion several days ago.

I guess my point is, that punchy attacks simply aren’t what Wiggins or Sky for that matter are currently about. Wiggins is an absolute master at measuring his effort and thus ensuring maximal overall wattage for a given distance. Time trial (or track pursuit) is all about measured effort and we draw no surprise that Wiggins has given a masterclass this year.

Previous years, his maximum sustainable limit simply wasn’t high enough and the year before last, I watched in disappointment as he very slowly disappeared off the back during one very steep climb.

This year couldn’t be more different and he is evidently able to sustain an output high enough that no competitor (lets exclude Froome for now) has the wattage to do any more than sit with them. They (Nibs, Evans) know that if they try to ease off the front, they run an exceptionally high risk of red-lining and blowing up.

Punching off the front does not necessarily a race win. Let’s envisage there weren’t any team orders that day. Froome accelerates hard off the front - then what? Clearly, he needs to settle into a pace, harder still – given the fact he will have had to push into some level of anaerobic operation.

From a purely technical/fact based standpoint – the very quickest way to go up a mountain will be to hold the highest steady pace possible. Perhaps you could talk about negative splits and slowly ramping the overall effort towards the end, but going up in an ‘attack laced’ string of maximal efforts, will never be as fast.
Rightly or wrongly, I hold the belief that holding off Wiggins (and any sky teammates actually respecting team orders) over the remaining couple of kilometres, simply isn’t possible.

I do see Froome able to grab a number of seconds from Wiggins at the very end of any summit finishes. Not enough however, to make up the deficit on the three time trials in 2012.

greeny12

I agree with Daz - one must never say never but personally I just can't see either Nibali or Evans having the climbing legs to smash Wiggins.

Evans seems a bit below his best and Nibali has never been a pure mountain goat so it just seems very unlikely him getting a big enough gap against the Sky train. VDB seems on the best climbing form but he's too far back in the GC unless something goes really wrong for Brad.

Don't forget that in 2009 (and Wiggo says he's in far better shape than then) he lost less than half a minute to Contador/Schleck/Armstrong on the Ventoux... and just five seconds to Nibbles.