Am I a dinosaur?

solosuperia

I have seen a couple of episodes in this years "Tour" where electronic gears have malfunctioned.
Also remember Wiggins throwing his bike to one side in the Worlds Time Trial I believe with his electronic gears messing up.
It begs the question what was wrong with cables?
Cannot see weight being a factor.
I guess the mechanics check out the cables overnight, good heavens mine seem to last for years yet alone one days racing.
Am I being cynical to suggest that electronic gears are more of a marketing ploy than a legitimate enhancement to improve the bikes performance in races!
Must hold my hands up here and say I have never used electronic gears.

sungod

haven't tried them, but reportedly the advantages are things like ability to shift reliably under load, self-trimming/adjusting, fast shifting

personally don't like the look of any current systems, maybe that'll change one day, but for now my watch is mechanical and so is my shifting

Hoopdriver

I too am in absolutely no hurry to 'upgrade' to something I can't repair myself

Monty Dog

Di2 has been used in the World Cup CX for 2 winters, about as hard a test as you can get. Have heard of some rear mech troubles bue to dirty connectors though. £400 for a rear mech should it go wrong / crash is a hefty price and is what puts me off.

TheEnglishman

How long do the batteries last? I imagine the motor is going to be a high torque one so will sink a large amount of current? It sounds like Formula1 stuff to me - only worth it is you have a mahoosive budget?

alihisgreat

SoloSuperia wrote:

I have seen a couple of episodes in this years "Tour" where electronic gears have malfunctioned.
Also remember Wiggins throwing his bike to one side in the Worlds Time Trial I believe with his electronic gears messing up.
It begs the question what was wrong with cables?
Cannot see weight being a factor.
I guess the mechanics check out the cables overnight, good heavens mine seem to last for years yet alone one days racing.
Am I being cynical to suggest that electronic gears are more of a marketing ploy than a legitimate enhancement to improve the bikes performance in races!
Must hold my hands up here and say I have never used electronic gears.

Apparently the dropped chains yesterday in stage 7 were due to the fact that electronic groupsets shift too quickly.. whereas with a mechanical group set you can abort the shift if you feel its going wrong.

Cleat Eastwood

TheEnglishman wrote:

How long do the batteries last? I imagine the motor is going to be a high torque one so will sink a large amount of current? It sounds like Formula1 stuff to me - only worth it is you have a mahoosive budget?

Some guy I was chatting to said who uses di2 said theyre meant to last for 24,000 clicks (thats gear changes, not the distance as used by the army in vietnam).

he bought his of ebay - didnt charge it enough and it conked out. theres no manual override so he was in too high a gear for the hills and too low a gear that he couldnt keep up with his clubmates on the descent. dont see why you need the paddle though you could just use a button.

TheEnglishman

I wonder why they've not put in a pressure sensor in the pedal along with a rotation sensor so gears shift automatically? Maybe that's next years must have?

I'm still happy with friction levers on the down tube myself. Call me old fashioned.

unixnerd

I'd rather put the extra cash into lighter wheels or something like that.

BruceG

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

SoloSuperia wrote:

I have seen a couple of episodes in this years "Tour" where electronic gears have malfunctioned.
Also remember Wiggins throwing his bike to one side in the Worlds Time Trial I believe with his electronic gears messing up.
It begs the question what was wrong with cables?
Cannot see weight being a factor.
I guess the mechanics check out the cables overnight, good heavens mine seem to last for years yet alone one days racing.
Am I being cynical to suggest that electronic gears are more of a marketing ploy than a legitimate enhancement to improve the bikes performance in races!
Must hold my hands up here and say I have never used electronic gears.

Apparently the dropped chains yesterday in stage 7 were due to the fact that electronic groupsets shift too quickly.. whereas with a mechanical group set you can abort the shift if you feel its going wrong.

Total BS, they dont shift any faster than cables. In fact you can make a faster shift with a cable system should you care to

BruceG

TheEnglishman wrote:

How long do the batteries last? I imagine the motor is going to be a high torque one so will sink a large amount of current? It sounds like Formula1 stuff to me - only worth it is you have a mahoosive budget?

I get about 6 months average, no of course it isnt high torque, the springs in a manual system are absent as they are not needed therefore very little resistance.

BruceG

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

TheEnglishman wrote:

How long do the batteries last? I imagine the motor is going to be a high torque one so will sink a large amount of current? It sounds like Formula1 stuff to me - only worth it is you have a mahoosive budget?

Some guy I was chatting to said who uses di2 said theyre meant to last for 24,000 clicks (thats gear changes, not the distance as used by the army in vietnam).

he bought his of ebay - didnt charge it enough and it conked out. theres no manual override so he was in too high a gear for the hills and too low a gear that he couldnt keep up with his clubmates on the descent. dont see why you need the paddle though you could just use a button.

Just shows that he is a total noddy for not taking one second to check his battery condition, doesnt show a fault with the system

biscuit959

Yeah i read that when its out of battery the front drops into the lower chainring before it goes and then you have however shifts left of the rear cassette just to get you home?? Maybe I'm making that up though lol.

I'm torn on it really though - like the idea but not the pricetag. Like the shifting under load but not sure I want to lose the whole "fix it yourself" thing which comes with cycling.

And to "TheEnglishMan" I don't think your idea would work because if it was automatic how would it tell if you were spinning up a climb and wanted to stay there or were on a descent and needed another gear?

BruceG

biscuit959 wrote:

Yeah i read that when its out of battery the front drops into the lower chainring before it goes and then you have however shifts left of the rear cassette just to get you home?? Maybe I'm making that up though lol.

I'm torn on it really though - like the idea but not the pricetag. Like the shifting under load but not sure I want to lose the whole "fix it yourself" thing which comes with cycling.

And to "TheEnglishMan" I don't think your idea would work because if it was automatic how would it tell if you were spinning up a climb and wanted to stay there or were on a descent and needed another gear?

Almost correct, all that happens is that the front shift stops, then you have about 50 or so shifts left in the rear to get you home, should you have been daft enough nopt to check your battery

g00se

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

TheEnglishman wrote:

How long do the batteries last? I imagine the motor is going to be a high torque one so will sink a large amount of current? It sounds like Formula1 stuff to me - only worth it is you have a mahoosive budget?

Some guy I was chatting to said who uses di2 said theyre meant to last for 24,000 clicks (thats gear changes, not the distance as used by the army in vietnam).

he bought his of ebay - didnt charge it enough and it conked out. theres no manual override so he was in too high a gear for the hills and too low a gear that he couldnt keep up with his clubmates on the descent. dont see why you need the paddle though you could just use a button.

I'm sure I've heard the Campag EPS system allows you to manually move the rear mech (by hand, disconnecting the motor) if the battery is dead - or the system fails. I can't check it though - as I haven't sold my family into bondage yet to raise the funds to buy one....

neeb

I'm on the fence about electronic shifting, I was a total sceptic until I had the chance to try di2 on a stationary bike at a bike fair, and I must admit it does feel good. It's not so much the speed of the shifting, more that you don't need to push the lever all of the way through when shifting to a larger chainring or sprocket, you just tap it lightly and the motor does the rest for you. You notice it especially when shifting from the small ring to the big ring at the front. Best way to imagine it is to think of a mechanical groupset where "up" shifts (to larger sprockets/chainrings) feel the same as downshifts, except with both having a lighter touch. The current prices, extra weight and potential maintenance issues don't justify it for me however, I think I'll wait a few years until the technology is further refined, the prices come down, and the batteries get smaller and less ugly... Personally I don't think the advantage is big enough for it ever to completely replace mechanical groups, there will always be a lot of people for whom the simplicity of mechanical shifting outweighs the minor advantages of electronic shifting. It's not a complete game-changer like indexed ergos/stis.

schlepcycling

Ok, I'll jump in here, I have it and I think it's great, I had the opportunity to get the upgrade kit from ebay in Jan 11 and I jumped at the chance and it's been absolutely faultless. As well as using it in the summer, I've used it over 2 winters so can report that the weather hasn't affected it one bit, it shifts perfectly ever time and I've charged the battery twice in all that time. I didn't get it because I think cables are rubbish or my cable shift bikes kept going wrong somehow, I bought it because I really wanted it.

BruceG

And as I am sure you have worked out I am also running it. Had it since the beginning of 2011 charged battery 3 times (this includes initial charge), no problems whatsoever. Its a joy to use, especially shifts on the FD. No it isnt a must have necessity, as with the other guy I wanted it, I am glad I have it, yes it changes nicer than manual but its not the be all and end all. What I can say is, it needs less maintenance, no re indexing, no cleaning sticky cables it just works and works well.

ethanhayes

TheEnglishman wrote:

I wonder why they've not put in a pressure sensor in the pedal along with a rotation sensor so gears shift automatically? Maybe that's next years must have?

Will that ever work? Aren't there to many variable to ever have automatic shifting?
Some people ride at high cadence, some far lower. It would have to be calibrated for each rider.
Even then, I don't always want to shift down because my cadence has dropped a bit, sometimes it better to power through.
And it would have to be so silky smooth, rough unexpected gear changes in the middle of a sprint doesn't sound like something I'd enjoy to much

neeb

ethanhayes wrote:

Will that ever work? Aren't there to many variable to ever have automatic shifting?
Some people ride at high cadence, some far lower. It would have to be calibrated for each rider.
Even then, I don't always want to shift down because my cadence has dropped a bit - I'd rather power through in some sort of mental attempt to build strength, however silly that may be.
And it would have to be so silky smooth, rough unexpected gear changes in the middle of a sprint doesn't sound like something I'd enjoy to much

I imagine it would need to be something you would switch on and off, like in automatic cars that have 3 or 4 manual gears as well as an auto mode. You would just bang it into the auto mode when you were spinning along on a long straight section of road.

thiscocks

BruceG wrote:

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

SoloSuperia wrote:

I have seen a couple of episodes in this years "Tour" where electronic gears have malfunctioned.
Also remember Wiggins throwing his bike to one side in the Worlds Time Trial I believe with his electronic gears messing up.
It begs the question what was wrong with cables?
Cannot see weight being a factor.
I guess the mechanics check out the cables overnight, good heavens mine seem to last for years yet alone one days racing.
Am I being cynical to suggest that electronic gears are more of a marketing ploy than a legitimate enhancement to improve the bikes performance in races!
Must hold my hands up here and say I have never used electronic gears.

Apparently the dropped chains yesterday in stage 7 were due to the fact that electronic groupsets shift too quickly.. whereas with a mechanical group set you can abort the shift if you feel its going wrong.

Total BS, they dont shift any faster than cables. In fact you can make a faster shift with a cable system should you care to

Maybe its the fact that you can trim the gears more easily with mechanical? Never used the electronic ones though...

BruceG

thiscocks wrote:

BruceG wrote:

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

SoloSuperia wrote:

I have seen a couple of episodes in this years "Tour" where electronic gears have malfunctioned.
Also remember Wiggins throwing his bike to one side in the Worlds Time Trial I believe with his electronic gears messing up.
It begs the question what was wrong with cables?
Cannot see weight being a factor.
I guess the mechanics check out the cables overnight, good heavens mine seem to last for years yet alone one days racing.
Am I being cynical to suggest that electronic gears are more of a marketing ploy than a legitimate enhancement to improve the bikes performance in races!
Must hold my hands up here and say I have never used electronic gears.

Apparently the dropped chains yesterday in stage 7 were due to the fact that electronic groupsets shift too quickly.. whereas with a mechanical group set you can abort the shift if you feel its going wrong.

Total BS, they dont shift any faster than cables. In fact you can make a faster shift with a cable system should you care to

Maybe its the fact that you can trim the gears more easily with mechanical? Never used the electronic ones though...

So how can you trim the rear derailleur easily on a cable operated system whilst on the move that would cause a chain drop, answer you cant. And what has this to do with speed of shifting?
Ironically you can adjust the trim or indexing of an electronic rear derailleur whilst on the move

Hoopdriver

neeb wrote:

ethanhayes wrote:

Will that ever work? Aren't there to many variable to ever have automatic shifting?
Some people ride at high cadence, some far lower. It would have to be calibrated for each rider.
Even then, I don't always want to shift down because my cadence has dropped a bit - I'd rather power through in some sort of mental attempt to build strength, however silly that may be.
And it would have to be so silky smooth, rough unexpected gear changes in the middle of a sprint doesn't sound like something I'd enjoy to much

I imagine it would need to be something you would switch on and off, like in automatic cars that have 3 or 4 manual gears as well as an auto mode. You would just bang it into the auto mode when you were spinning along on a long straight section of road.

And what practical use would that be?

neeb

Hoopdriver wrote:

neeb wrote:

ethanhayes wrote:

Will that ever work? Aren't there to many variable to ever have automatic shifting?
Some people ride at high cadence, some far lower. It would have to be calibrated for each rider.
Even then, I don't always want to shift down because my cadence has dropped a bit - I'd rather power through in some sort of mental attempt to build strength, however silly that may be.
And it would have to be so silky smooth, rough unexpected gear changes in the middle of a sprint doesn't sound like something I'd enjoy to much

I imagine it would need to be something you would switch on and off, like in automatic cars that have 3 or 4 manual gears as well as an auto mode. You would just bang it into the auto mode when you were spinning along on a long straight section of road.

And what practical use would that be?

Save you having to switch back and forward between 2 gears every 20 secs or so when your comfortable cadence is drifting from one to the other due to slight gradient differences, wind etc. It's about the only situation I can think of where auto gears might be useful, any other situation and you'd want to be in complete control.

DavidJB

If you're so lazy you can't even be bothered to shift then why not just go the whole hog and get an electric bike?

careful

Interesting how many folks are put off Di2 because they prefer kit they can service themselves. I just wonder how many have managed to successfuly dismantle/reassemble or repair an sti shifter. Admittedly a roadside bodge will usually get you home with mechanical systems. I recall the same was said about steam trains when diesel came along. Personally I would love to see the back of cable lubing and adjustment - but they dont do a triple system yet.

neeb

careful wrote:

I just wonder how many have managed to successfuly dismantle/reassemble or repair an sti shifter.

The current Campag 11sp. shifters are pretty simple really, I've had mine apart a few times (they're simpler than the older ones). There is no part of a current non-electronic bike that can't be completely disassembled and put back together again by anyone with a modicum of mechanical ability, it's not like watchmaking.. (although if you've had the keyless works of a 1970's Seiko mechanical watch apart, an STI isn't going to cause you much trouble... ) The problem is not ease of fettling, it's the increasing tendency of manufacturers not to supply spare parts, or to only sell modules rather than individual parts. With electronic groupsets they have another means to shut you out and force you to only buy complete parts and throw them out when they stop working...

Hoopdriver

careful wrote:

Interesting how many folks are put off Di2 because they prefer kit they can service themselves. I just wonder how many have managed to successfuly dismantle/reassemble or repair an sti shifter. Admittedly a roadside bodge will usually get you home with mechanical systems. I recall the same was said about steam trains when diesel came along. Personally I would love to see the back of cable lubing and adjustment - but they dont do a triple system yet.

I use bar ends and down tubeshifters. Couldn't be simpler to repair.

Then again you hardly ever have to. They are so simple nothing ever goes wrong with them.

And they work just fine.

Tottenham21

IMO, I'm with the other person on here that mention the fact that I prefer regular shifting at least I can fix it myself but that new system Di2 crap, one is too expensive and two I can't fix that myself so will end up expending lots and lots of money to fix so I guess I'm old school but that new system won't be on my list of upgrades anytime soon..

BruceG

Tottenham21 wrote:

IMO, I'm with the other person on here that mention the fact that I prefer regular shifting at least I can fix it myself but that new system Di2 crap, one is too expensive and two I can't fix that myself so will end up expending lots and lots of money to fix so I guess I'm old school but that new system won't be on my list of upgrades anytime soon..

What makes it "crap", mine is fine?
Guess you cant afford it so you put it down in order to justify to yourself why you dont have it, why not, just not buy it, if you either, cant afford it or dont want it, but those reasons dont make it crap, it works extremely well.

schlepcycling

Tottenham21 wrote:

IMO, I'm with the other person on here that mention the fact that I prefer regular shifting at least I can fix it myself but that new system Di2 crap, one is too expensive and two I can't fix that myself so will end up expending lots and lots of money to fix so I guess I'm old school but that new system won't be on my list of upgrades anytime soon..

How much time do you spend fixing your existing shifters!!!, I've got a pair of Record shifters from 2000 that have never needed to be fixed in anyway and they work perfectly..what are you doing to your stuff that means you're spending lots and lots of money fixing it. In all the time I've been using integrated shift and brake levers I've had one pair that I sent to Mercian cycles for servicing and that cost me £35....not exactly a bank breaker.