Forum home Road cycling forum Training, fitness and health

Muscle Mass

meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
So in search of elusive weight loss, I engaged a sports nutritionalist. He looked at exactly what I do and came up with a plan. Lots of protein, eating frequently, limited but sufficient carbs etc

6 weeks or so later, my belt is 2+ notches in, I can tell with some degree of certainty that I have abs, bike times continue to fall week-on-week. All good.

Well, not exactly.

When I started I was 91kg (I'm 183cm). If I squint at the scales today, I can pretend that I'm 90kg. But basically I've swapped a reasonable amount of fat for (seemingly) muscle. For a load of reasons (climbing hills, racing cars etc) I was actually hoping to lose weight. 85kg would have been nice.

What am I doing wrong? My typical week consists of a couple of "fast" (threshold-ish) pace 30-mile RT commutes through the Highlands (no junctions, buses, lights - though plenty of hills (see signature)) plus one extended commute (15 miles in, 40 home) again at a reasonably high effort. This week will see me do a 30-miler continuous recreation ride plus 3x the extended commute - around 200 miles.

My only thought is that I'm muscling the bike ("mashing" - I suppose) too much and developing muscle that way. Typical average cadence (which includes feewheeling etc) is 83rpm.

I'd appreciate some pointers. Thanks.
ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
«1

Posts

  • Six weeks doesnt sound like a whole lot of time to see changes, especially as you're not primarily concentrating on loosing weight, but appear to be working on improving your cycling fitness (sensibly!). I doubt that you're building muscle from the amount of cycling you're doing.

    It reads like your "average" week is 2x30 miles and 1x55 miles, so perhaps 7 hours cycling at base-endurancey pace.

    My guess is - up the hours on the bike if possible (if thats really a problem, then maybe look at upping the intensity), but more generally accept that at 7 hours exercise a week, weight loss will come, but will take time.

    jon
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    Six weeks doesnt sound like a whole lot of time to see changes, especially as you're not primarily concentrating on loosing weight, but appear to be working on improving your cycling fitness (sensibly!). I doubt that you're building muscle from the amount of cycling you're doing.

    It reads like your "average" week is 2x30 miles and 1x55 miles, so perhaps 7 hours cycling at base-endurancey pace.

    My guess is - up the hours on the bike if possible (if thats really a problem, then maybe look at upping the intensity), but more generally accept that at 7 hours exercise a week, weight loss will come, but will take time.

    jon

    I think you're missing my key drift. The fat is going (all too obviously) - the weight isn't.

    I'm already riding pretty much at threshold (I probably didn't make that clear - Avg HR is 161 vs 180-ish max)(RHR is 53 if you want to factor that in). I don't need to lose fat any quicker - I'm happy with that - I'd just like the fat loss to equate a bit more to weight loss (without cycling performance penalty).

    Make sense?
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • sungodsungod Posts: 12,689
    sounds like you are training to build muscle - overload/stress muscles + food == bigger muscles

    http://www.livestrong.com/article/39612 ... ower-body/
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • Hi MM

    I understood you, I just wasnt clear myself. It seems very unlikely that you are building muscle from 7 hours aerobic cycling a week. So, if your weight is constant, then the conclusion is that you havent lost a whole lot of fat yet either!

    Its the same point as the on-going discussions about weight training in cycling. For endurance cycling, which is what you appear to be doing, maximal strength isn't an issue - even at ~80rpm you're not pushing hard enough to build muscle in the way you would pushing a leg press say. You would need to be doing standing start sprints and other high intensity drills to truly overload the muscles.

    To me, given its just been 6 weeks with around 7 hours exercise a week, it seems much more likely that you're just beginning to tone up a little, so you're seeing a little reduction in fat and beginning to feel fitter. But at this point you have likely not greatly reduced fat (perhaps some visible changes as much from feeling better, but not an overall reduction in your percentage body fat) but nor have you increased muscle mass.

    I guess you could get a body fat measurement done to test and track?

    jon
  • ctcctc Posts: 232
    If your body is changing shape and you are losing subcutaneous fat
    and your weight is remaining relatively constant
    The only thing that's happening is you are gaining muscle mass. Or your scales are broken
  • racingcondorracingcondor Posts: 1,434
    I'm with the others. You are trading some fat for muscle. The good news though is that since muscle weighs more than fat you will be shrinking (which from the belt tightening you seem to be seeing).

    I'd give it time, your body will take the easiest route so while for now it's burning fat and building athletic performance (no bad thing) there will come a time when that's no longer so easy (assuming training remains constant). My first year of road cycling took 3 inches off my waist but didn't change my weight at all (grew some thighs) and I started a relatively skinny 69kg.
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    thanks. I should add that my cycling volume has been reasonably constant - I "commute" (I use that word carefully because people get hung up with HiViz, traffic lights & buses - mine is an A-B more-or-less stop-free cycle at whatever pace I can manage) all year round. The only difference I've added is the longer route home.

    I do work my legs reasonably hard - almost nothing of my ride is "flat" by any definition.

    I also have absolutely no doubt I'm losing fat (my wife wants me to stop because she says I look skinny and she doesn't like it). I can fit a pair of 32" jeans around my waist though they are very tight around the thighs.

    I'm not too upset but I did hope to lose "mass". I wonder whether the better diet is allowing me to ride harder, recover quicker and provide every last drop of protein my body can use (I even have overnight caseine shakes....)
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • t.m.h.n.e.tt.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    The good news though is that since muscle weighs more than fat you will be shrinking (which from the belt tightening you seem to be seeing).
    It does not.
  • OfficerDigbyOfficerDigby Posts: 110
    (I even have overnight caseine shakes....)

    OK if you want to lose weight what you do is stop all those types of things. Easy.


    However, performance can suffer while losing weight...

    Or get the diet/fitness guru guy to reprogram for weight-loss.
  • alex1robalex1rob Posts: 95
    The good news though is that since muscle weighs more than fat you will be shrinking (which from the belt tightening you seem to be seeing).
    It does not.

    Yes it does. Muscle contains more water than adipose tissue. Per unit of volume the muscle would weigh more. It is denser.
  • alex1robalex1rob Posts: 95
    thanks. I should add that my cycling volume has been reasonably constant - I "commute" (I use that word carefully because people get hung up with HiViz, traffic lights & buses - mine is an A-B more-or-less stop-free cycle at whatever pace I can manage) all year round. The only difference I've added is the longer route home.

    I do work my legs reasonably hard - almost nothing of my ride is "flat" by any definition.

    I also have absolutely no doubt I'm losing fat (my wife wants me to stop because she says I look skinny and she doesn't like it). I can fit a pair of 32" jeans around my waist though they are very tight around the thighs.

    I'm not too upset but I did hope to lose "mass". I wonder whether the better diet is allowing me to ride harder, recover quicker and provide every last drop of protein my body can use (I even have overnight caseine shakes....)

    Just a bit from my experience, I never needed to lose weight but my legs have always been large. I noticed that once I upped the amount of cycling I was doing in one go,I lost leg mass. Riding at high heart rates is less likely to cause you to lose weight as you are pushing your legs. I find that moderate intensities for long efforts, 50+ miles in a single ride probably has the biggest effect on me rather than 5x10 mile rides.
  • t.m.h.n.e.tt.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    alex1rob wrote:
    The good news though is that since muscle weighs more than fat you will be shrinking (which from the belt tightening you seem to be seeing).
    It does not.

    Yes it does. Muscle contains more water than adipose tissue. Per unit of volume the muscle would weigh more. It is denser.
    Except it doesn't.

    The correct term is "Muscle by volume weighs more than fat",this is a rather crucial statement. 1ton of feathers weights the same as 1 ton of bricks. See the difference?
  • amaferangaamaferanga Posts: 6,789
    You didn't tell us that you have a hilly commute in the Highlands and that you race cars. Oh hang on a minute....


    Btw you'd probably burn more calories with a flat commute.
    More problems but still living....
  • nicklousenicklouse Posts: 81,520 Lives Here
    alex1rob wrote:
    The good news though is that since muscle weighs more than fat you will be shrinking (which from the belt tightening you seem to be seeing).
    It does not.

    Yes it does. Muscle contains more water than adipose tissue. Per unit of volume the muscle would weigh more. It is denser.
    Except it doesn't.

    The correct term is "Muscle by volume weighs more than fat",this is a rather crucial statement. 1ton of feathers weights the same as 1 ton of bricks. See the difference?

    Is that not what he said here?
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    I was asking my nutrition guru (I got an "out of office" on holiday response but he's replied anyway)

    He's saying I should be very happy as losing fat and gaining muscle don't normally occur together unless
    1. You are new to training
    2. On steroids or
    3. On a "perfect diet leading to nutrient partitioning" which, apparently, is very rare

    If my times are improving, I'm recovering better and I've dropped fat I should be very satisfied as it's not normally possible to do all three.

    The other thing that often happens is that I lose weight if I take a week off the bike. I'm not sure why that would be.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm not planning on changing anything for now - just want to understand
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    amaferanga wrote:
    You didn't tell us that you have a hilly commute in the Highlands and that you race cars. Oh hang on a minute....


    Btw you'd probably burn more calories with a flat commute.

    I'll trade my race car in for a very big steamroller then :wink::wink:
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • t.m.h.n.e.tt.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    nicklouse wrote:
    alex1rob wrote:
    The good news though is that since muscle weighs more than fat you will be shrinking (which from the belt tightening you seem to be seeing).
    It does not.

    Yes it does. Muscle contains more water than adipose tissue. Per unit of volume the muscle would weigh more. It is denser.
    Except it doesn't.

    The correct term is "Muscle by volume weighs more than fat",this is a rather crucial statement. 1ton of feathers weights the same as 1 ton of bricks. See the difference?

    Is that not what he said here?
    The entire post contradicted itself. Tis a pretty crucial statement to get correct..
  • liversedgeliversedge Posts: 1,002
    You are unlikely to have put on considerable muscle mass in 6 weeks.

    On the Supertraining forum, Anthony Pitruzzello, PhD, came up with a potential achievable range of approximately 1.5 to 5 pounds of additional lean muscle per month, after researching scientific studies.
    --
    Obsessed is just a word elephants use to describe the dedicated. http://markliversedge.blogspot.com
  • dw300dw300 Posts: 1,642
    liversedge wrote:
    You are unlikely to have put on considerable muscle mass in 6 weeks.

    On the Supertraining forum, Anthony Pitruzzello, PhD, came up with a potential achievable range of approximately 1.5 to 5 pounds of additional lean muscle per month, after researching scientific studies.

    Lol, yeh with weight training, perfect nutrition and some dbol and hgh. brb, going to gain 60lbs of lean mass before next summer.
    All the above is just advice .. you can do whatever the f*ck you wana do!
    Bike Radar Strava Club
    The Northern Ireland Thread
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    liversedge wrote:
    You are unlikely to have put on considerable muscle mass in 6 weeks.

    On the Supertraining forum, Anthony Pitruzzello, PhD, came up with a potential achievable range of approximately 1.5 to 5 pounds of additional lean muscle per month, after researching scientific studies.

    I checked today - its actually day 59 (time flies) - so 1.5kg to 5kg of muscle mass possible. Even in the mid-range: say 3kg, I'd be happy with that fat loss and muscle gain - though I think I am actually 1kg lighter (but no more). I've done 200 miles on the bike since Saturday.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • ShutUpLegsShutUpLegs Posts: 3,522
    liversedge wrote:
    You are unlikely to have put on considerable muscle mass in 6 weeks.

    On the Supertraining forum, Anthony Pitruzzello, PhD, came up with a potential achievable range of approximately 1.5 to 5 pounds of additional lean muscle per month, after researching scientific studies.

    I checked today - its actually day 59 (time flies) - so 1.5kg to 5kg of muscle mass possible. Even in the mid-range: say 3kg, I'd be happy with that fat loss and muscle gain - though I think I am actually 1kg lighter (but no more). I've done 200 miles on the bike since Saturday.

    What is the relevance of doing 200 miles since Saturday :?:
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    .
    My guess is - up the hours on the bike if possible (if thats really a problem, then maybe look at upping the intensity), but more generally accept that at 7 hours exercise a week, weight loss will come, but will take time.
    jon
    ShutUpLegs wrote:
    What is the relevance of doing 200 miles since Saturday :?:
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • P_TuckerP_Tucker Posts: 1,878
    liversedge wrote:
    You are unlikely to have put on considerable muscle mass in 6 weeks.

    On the Supertraining forum, Anthony Pitruzzello, PhD, came up with a potential achievable range of approximately 1.5 to 5 pounds of additional lean muscle per month, after researching scientific studies.

    I checked today - its actually day 59 (time flies) - so 1.5kg to 5kg of muscle mass possible. Even in the mid-range: say 3kg, I'd be happy with that fat loss and muscle gain - though I think I am actually 1kg lighter (but no more). I've done 200 miles on the bike since Saturday.

    Er, putting on muscle is hard. Those figures are presumably for people actually trying to put on muscle and hitting the gym 6 times a week whilst cramming their faces with all sorts of whey isolate mega mass 3000 creatine roids. No-one does it by accident, let alone whilst riding their bike a lot (even at - shock horror - 83rpm) and eating to lose weight. Its a fairly safe bet you've gained no lean muscle mass.

    If I had to guess, I'd say you are suffering from a delusion and seeing exactly what you hope to see in the mirror. You seem the type.
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    P_Tucker wrote:

    Er, putting on muscle is hard. Those figures are presumably for people actually trying to put on muscle and hitting the gym 6 times a week whilst cramming their faces with all sorts of whey isolate mega mass 3000 creatine roids. No-one does it by accident, let alone whilst riding their bike a lot (even at - shock horror - 83rpm) and eating to lose weight. Its a fairly safe bet you've gained no lean muscle mass.

    If I had to guess, I'd say you are suffering from a delusion and seeing exactly what you hope to see in the mirror. You seem the type.

    I honestly can't begin to think why I'm replying to your constant trolling on here but, just to correct your usual borlocks, let's look at the facts

    The mirror has nothing to do with it: both of my belts are over 2 notches "tighter" (perhaps 2 belts that I've owned for many years have both suddenly grown 2.5"?????) People are telling me I look much leaner including my wife that has asked me to stop getting thinner. No doubt you'll have some reason why this is all wrong, in your playground bully mode, and we're all making it up somehow.

    And yes, I've got cupboards full of potions and mixtures from Maximuscle, MyProtein, Discount Supplements etc etc and I'm on a very high protein diet - last thing before bed I'm on a casein shake and tablespoon of peanut butter (as a for instance). Eggs for breakfast (on non-riding days) nuts & maximuscle bars mid-morning and mid-afternoon (or venison burgers and green veg), packets of chicken breast, turkey slices, more venison for lunch, high protein tea, recovery shakes after every ride - shall I go on? Am I missing something? Oh yes, BCAAs and a few other things.

    Finally, the results: fortunately (at least for the purposes of this) the temperatures up here have hardly changed in the last couple of months. Nor has the wind (constant direction and speed). Yet my bike times have universally improved on routes I've been doing for years now. Correlation? I don't know - I'm sure (as is the nature of this particular forum) that people will jump on this and say its rubbish. But the facts speak for themselves.

    I'm waiting to be told I'm stupid/deluded/etc by the playground bully....
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • t.m.h.n.e.tt.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    liversedge wrote:
    You are unlikely to have put on considerable muscle mass in 6 weeks.

    On the Supertraining forum, Anthony Pitruzzello, PhD, came up with a potential achievable range of approximately 1.5 to 5 pounds of additional lean muscle per month, after researching scientific studies.

    I checked today - its actually day 59 (time flies) - so 1.5kg to 5kg of muscle mass possible. Even in the mid-range: say 3kg, I'd be happy with that fat loss and muscle gain - though I think I am actually 1kg lighter (but no more). I've done 200 miles on the bike since Saturday.
    No it isn't. Even if you were to spend 8hrs a day 7 days a week in the gym lifting vein bursting weights,5kg is highly unlikely,closer to impossible.

    What is even more unlikely is putting on 1.5 - 5kg muscle via cycling only. This isn't because of you,but the types of muscle fibre recruited in squating 100kg and pedalling for 100k are vastly different in size and function.
    P_Tucker wrote:

    Er, putting on muscle is hard. Those figures are presumably for people actually trying to put on muscle and hitting the gym 6 times a week whilst cramming their faces with all sorts of whey isolate mega mass 3000 creatine roids. No-one does it by accident, let alone whilst riding their bike a lot (even at - shock horror - 83rpm) and eating to lose weight. Its a fairly safe bet you've gained no lean muscle mass.

    If I had to guess, I'd say you are suffering from a delusion and seeing exactly what you hope to see in the mirror. You seem the type.

    I honestly can't begin to think why I'm replying to your constant trolling on here but, just to correct your usual borlocks, let's look at the facts

    The mirror has nothing to do with it: both of my belts are over 2 notches "tighter" (perhaps 2 belts that I've owned for many years have both suddenly grown 2.5"?????) People are telling me I look much leaner including my wife that has asked me to stop getting thinner. No doubt you'll have some reason why this is all wrong, in your playground bully mode, and we're all making it up somehow.

    And yes, I've got cupboards full of potions and mixtures from Maximuscle, MyProtein, Discount Supplements etc etc and I'm on a very high protein diet - last thing before bed I'm on a casein shake and tablespoon of peanut butter (as a for instance). Eggs for breakfast (on non-riding days) nuts & maximuscle bars mid-morning and mid-afternoon (or venison burgers and green veg), packets of chicken breast, turkey slices, more venison for lunch, high protein tea, recovery shakes after every ride - shall I go on? Am I missing something? Oh yes, BCAAs and a few other things.

    Finally, the results: fortunately (at least for the purposes of this) the temperatures up here have hardly changed in the last couple of months. Nor has the wind (constant direction and speed). Yet my bike times have universally improved on routes I've been doing for years now. Correlation? I don't know - I'm sure (as is the nature of this particular forum) that people will jump on this and say its rubbish. But the facts speak for themselves.

    I'm waiting to be told I'm stupid/deluded/etc by the playground bully....

    That's great of course. But I hate to tell you that you are indeed deluded if you think 1.5 - 5kg of muscle gain is possible. If it was,all of the riders in the TDF would finish it heavier than they started.
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    But I hate to tell you that you are indeed deluded if you think 1.5 - 5kg of muscle gain is possible. If it was,all of the riders in the TDF would finish it heavier than they started.

    You'll have to explain how one follows the other - I'm struggling to see why you've even mentioned TdF riders - though flattered to think that my riding might bear any kind of relationship to what they're doing :?

    Let's please go back to my original question though and maybe, rather than snipe from the sidelines, suggest something that fits. 2 measurements and some observations:

    waistline is 2"+ smaller as measured by two belts and several pairs of trousers
    weight is almost unchanged (2 sets of scales)
    wife and other people (unprompted) say I'm looking leaner

    What's happening?
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • t.m.h.n.e.tt.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    But I hate to tell you that you are indeed deluded if you think 1.5 - 5kg of muscle gain is possible. If it was,all of the riders in the TDF would finish it heavier than they started.

    You'll have to explain how one follows the other - I'm struggling to see why you've even mentioned TdF riders - though flattered to think that my riding might bear any kind of relationship to what they're doing :?

    Let's please go back to my original question though and maybe, rather than snipe from the sidelines, suggest something that fits. 2 measurements and some observations:

    waistline is 2"+ smaller as measured by two belts and several pairs of trousers
    weight is almost unchanged (2 sets of scales)
    wife and other people (unprompted) say I'm looking leaner

    What's happening?
    Do you really believe that it's possible to gain 1.5 - kg of muscle via this only? This below being the only activity you list and you did try to say that you may have put on 5kg of muscle. Or that you've lost fat and put on enough muscle that the scales aren't moving.
    My typical week consists of a couple of "fast" (threshold-ish) pace 30-mile RT commutes through the Highlands (no junctions, buses, lights - though plenty of hills (see signature)) plus one extended commute (15 miles in, 40 home) again at a reasonably high effort. This week will see me do a 30-miler continuous recreation ride plus 3x the extended commute - around 200 miles.
    I checked today - its actually day 59 (time flies) - so 1.5kg to 5kg of muscle mass possible. Even in the mid-range: say 3kg, I'd be happy with that fat loss and muscle gain - though I think I am actually 1kg lighter (but no more). I've done 200 miles on the bike since Saturday.
    3kg would be equivalent 6lbs or 4 months of weight dedicated weight training in order to get anywhere close to 1.5lbs a month. How do you conceive that you have achieved this in 2months with no weight training?
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    Do you really believe that it's possible to gain 1.5 - kg of muscle via this only? This below being the only activity you list and you did try to say that you may have put on 5kg of muscle.

    It's actually others that have suggested this. BTW, at no point have I suggested I've put on 5kg. In fact, though, I doubt you've any idea of my physical make-up anyway - whether I started at 60kg or 160kg.

    How about some constructive suggestions???
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • t.m.h.n.e.tt.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Do you really believe that it's possible to gain 1.5 - kg of muscle via this only? This below being the only activity you list and you did try to say that you may have put on 5kg of muscle.

    It's actually others that have suggested this. BTW, at no point have I suggested I've put on 5kg. In fact, though, I doubt you've any idea of my physical make-up anyway - whether I started at 60kg or 160kg.

    How about some constructive suggestions???

    Of course it was, but you lapped it up like a cat with a saucer of milk.
    liversedge wrote:
    You are unlikely to have put on considerable muscle mass in 6 weeks.

    On the Supertraining forum, Anthony Pitruzzello, PhD, came up with a potential achievable range of approximately 1.5 to 5 pounds of additional lean muscle per month, after researching scientific studies.

    I checked today - its actually day 59 (time flies) - so 1.5kg to 5kg of muscle mass possible. Even in the mid-range: say 3kg, I'd be happy with that fat loss and muscle gain - though I think I am actually 1kg lighter (but no more). I've done 200 miles on the bike since Saturday.

    So at what point has your commuting and leisure riding became equal to muscle gains of a dedicated bodybuilder/gym-goer?
  • shedheadshedhead Posts: 367
    liversedge wrote:
    You are unlikely to have put on considerable muscle mass in 6 weeks.

    On the Supertraining forum, Anthony Pitruzzello, PhD, came up with a potential achievable range of approximately 1.5 to 5 pounds of additional lean muscle per month, after researching scientific studies.

    Meanred,
    Can you post a link to the supertraining forum please? I'd be interested in reading what Anthony has to say.

    Thanks in advance :)
    'Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts'.
Sign In or Register to comment.