Being polite?

mattsaw

I'm fairly laid-back when I commute, when I see a pedestrian in the middle of the road or a car half way out I try to slow down and let them out or across the road.

Recently I've had a couple of cases of people behind me hammering past on the inside (fater I've shoulder-checked to the right) seemingly without noticing what's going on ahead.

Good idea or not? I know the cyclist coming through is probably technically in the right, as they have right of way, and it's possibly putting people in harms way as they assume someone letting them through means the way is clear.

tallmansix

I'd say same as with driving, never change the natural flow of traffic by letting somebody out, it causes unexpected things that may cause accidents as some people get the wrong message or don't know that you have decided to change the rules at that instance.

It annoys me sometimes when I driver gives me right of way when I'm not entitled, it can put pressure on me to complete a maneuver before I'm happy it is totally safe.

SimonAH

"I'd say same as with driving, never change the natural flow of traffic by letting somebody out"

Are you serious? In a slow moving (car) situation I always let people out. Loses you two seconds max. Pay it.forward dude!

Compare it.to when you're in a hurry, stuck in a sidestreet and screaming at the windshield because none of the selfish records will let you out.

tallmansix

Yes I am serious SimonAH, I'm referring to the situation in the original post, whereby a rider behind didn't realise that the first cyclist had given way to a car, it could have caused an accident from the way it is described.

I've seen a three car pile up and a traffic light knocked over because a driver let another driver out of a side road on a four lane A road.

Edit: And I do agree politeness and good road manners come first, I'm suggesting it is always risky to change the natural flow of traffic, not everybody around will understand what is happening.

rolf_f

Ultimately, the driver in front ought to be able to do whatever they want without worrying about what goes on behind but it doesn't work that way. I was following a queue of cars overtaking a bus. Three cars were ahead. All moved out to the middle of the road (blocking the route for oncoming traffic). Two passed the bus and the Audi TT decided to stop. Completely pointlessly but it left me with an entertaining skid swerve stop to avoid rear ending the Audi. My fault but if the Audi hadn't been driven by Spazzy Mc Spaz-ter then he'd have just followed the other cars and made it easier for himself, myself and the oncoming cars who now needed to squeeze slowly past him.
And this morning I noticed a numpty on a mini roundabout pointlessly giving way to a car from the left. By all means give people the way even if they don't have priority but it's safest not to inflict your politeness on those behind you unless there is a good reason for it.

jedster

tallmansix,

think you are being a bit extreme about this - traffic flows because of skillful give and take by road users. Just take the example of a parked car blockinga lane in heavy traffic - at some point it needs the oncoming traffic to let the opposing traffic through by a driver slowing more than they strctly need to given their priority. Think also about the whole concept of "negotiation" - you want to change lanes, you shoulder check, indicate and the driver behind eases off to let you in. All of this is about ceding a bit of your priority to allow the traffic to flow. frankly if people dont ride/drive alert to the fact that this sort of give and take is going to happen then they shouldnt be on the road.

daviesee

The undeniable truth - tallmansix drives an Audi :twisted:

rick_chasey

tallmansix wrote:

I'd say same as with driving, never change the natural flow of traffic by letting somebody out, it causes unexpected things that may cause accidents as some people get the wrong message or don't know that you have decided to change the rules at that instance.

It annoys me sometimes when I driver gives me right of way when I'm not entitled, it can put pressure on me to complete a maneuver before I'm happy it is totally safe.

Quite.

Road rules only work if everyone adheres to them.

That way everyone behaves predictably.

The amount of times I've had problems because someone in a car has SUDDENLY decided to let someone either turn onto our road or let oncoming traffic turn right - each time I'm screeching to a halt to try and avoid smashing into them.

mudcow007

SimonAH wrote:

"I'd say same as with driving, never change the natural flow of traffic by letting somebody out"

Are you serious? In a slow moving (car) situation I always let people out. Loses you two seconds max. Pay it.forward dude!

Compare it.to when you're in a hurry, stuck in a sidestreet and screaming at the windshield because none of the selfish records will let you out.

+100000

daviesee

Rick Chasey wrote:

tallmansix wrote:

I'd say same as with driving, never change the natural flow of traffic by letting somebody out, it causes unexpected things that may cause accidents as some people get the wrong message or don't know that you have decided to change the rules at that instance.

It annoys me sometimes when I driver gives me right of way when I'm not entitled, it can put pressure on me to complete a maneuver before I'm happy it is totally safe.

Quite.

Road rules only work if everyone adheres to them.

That way everyone behaves predictably.

The amount of times I've had problems because someone in a car has SUDDENLY decided to let someone either turn onto our road or let oncoming traffic turn right - each time I'm screeching to a halt to try and avoid smashing into them.

I've highlighted the extremities of this discussion.
Sometimes it is okay. Sometimes it is not.

rick_chasey

daviesee wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

tallmansix wrote:

I'd say same as with driving, never change the natural flow of traffic by letting somebody out, it causes unexpected things that may cause accidents as some people get the wrong message or don't know that you have decided to change the rules at that instance.

It annoys me sometimes when I driver gives me right of way when I'm not entitled, it can put pressure on me to complete a maneuver before I'm happy it is totally safe.

Quite.

Road rules only work if everyone adheres to them.

That way everyone behaves predictably.

The amount of times I've had problems because someone in a car has SUDDENLY decided to let someone either turn onto our road or let oncoming traffic turn right - each time I'm screeching to a halt to try and avoid smashing into them.

I've highlighted the extremities of this discussion.
Sometimes it is okay. Sometimes it is not.

*shrugs*

Even if it's not suddenly it's an issue.

How can I ride safely if I don't know if someone's going to use their right of way or not?

SimonAH

By using your eyes, hazard awareness, calculation of stopping distances, observance of road surface conditions and AUTOMATICALLY ASSUMING THAT EVERYONE DRIVES LIKE A C*CK and then having your day made nice by most of them not doing so,

daviesee

Rick Chasey wrote:

*shrugs*

Even if it's not suddenly it's an issue.

How can I ride safely if I don't know if someone's going to use their right of way or not?

Shrugs.
I thought I was agreeing with you. :?
It is not the giving way that causes any problem it is the suddenness.
If the traffic (including cycles) is already slowing or stopped then giving way shouldn't be a problem.
Stopping without indicating while flowing will cause problems.

rick_chasey

SimonAH wrote:

By using your eyes, hazard awareness, calculation of stopping distances, observance of road surface conditions and AUTOMATICALLY ASSUMING THAT EVERYONE DRIVES LIKE A C*CK and then having your day made nice by most of them not doing so,

Yeah.

I also MASSIVELY object to trying to communicate through window panes on the road.

It only leads to confusion.

veronese68

I'm with SiAH, Jedster and Daviesee. There should be a bit of give and take. A road user shouldn't be surprised that another road user let's someone pull out, it's common practice.

Origamist

Here's three situations with pedestrians and issues relating to ceding priority and hazard perception. As you can see, I spotted the clues in two of the three instances:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FbPi5iq ... ature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxuOFsV- ... ature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMQh25SH ... ature=plcp

suzyb

Is it just me that thinks Rick is being sarcastic.

And road users shouldn't be surprise other road users are courteous occasionally. But those courteous road users should (imho) make sure it is safe to be courteous or stop in a position which makes it safe (for example stop far enough to the left that other vehicles wont be able to pass or check in their mirrors for cycles which may undertake them when they're stopped).

rick_chasey

suzyb wrote:

Is it just me that thinks Rick is being sarcastic.

Probably.

I certainly don't .

It's a (very small) bug bear of mine.

suzyb

So we should all get drive cars without windows so we can talk to each other

rick_chasey

suzyb wrote:

So we should all get drive cars without windows so we can talk to each other

OOr, don't communicate through the glass, and just stick to the rights of way.

Then everyone wins, and everyone knows what's going on.

SimonAH

Then it will not be possible to pull out from a side street onto an main road during rush hour in many parts of the country? At least not without a hazardous barging in type of manouvre.

But then, as I recall, you're rather fond of queue jumping? :-D

rick_chasey

SimonAH wrote:

Then it will not be possible to pull out from a side street onto an main road during rush hour in many parts of the country? At least not without a hazardous barging in type of manouvre.

But then, as I recall, you're rather fond of queue jumping? :-D

If the road's full, they shouldn't be joining .

Or the council should sort out a different road layout.

A bit more seriously, I've never seen a junction which has that problem. Sure, you might wait for 5 mins beforehand, but that's the cost of driving a car. In my driving test I was told specifically not to go if someone waved me through, since because it was their right of way, by pulling out infront of them (however slowly they're going) I'd get a minor.




And yes, I do love queue jumping.

suzyb

Rick Chasey wrote:

suzyb wrote:

So we should all get drive cars without windows so we can talk to each other

OOr, don't communicate through the glass, and just stick to the rights of way.

Then everyone wins, and everyone knows what's going on.

Then some days I wouldn't be able to get onto the main road during rush hour or I'd have to pull out in front of someone (which is breaking their right of way).

Now I'm going to quit responding because frankly I still think you're taking the weewee.

btw learning to drive now you get taught to pull out in front of people and not to wait for a clear road. And you get told to proceed if they allow you (after you've made sure it is safe to do so). I think you even get a minor for sitting at a junction for too long when there have been opportunities to proceed.

shouldbeinbed

common sense needs to be the thing, but in the OP's original example along with comments about screeching to a halt. the rules are that you drive/pedal in such a manner as to be able to react safely to unexpected problems. Its not just people letting each other out. I've seen plenty of cars stall and stop dead, I've seen a ped keel over from the pavement edge straight into the road. Should they have been run over just to keep traffic flowing for someone a few vehicle lengths back travelling too fast and with too little anticipation for the conditions.

I like the idea of demolisihng millions of homes that were foolishly built on roads that feed into commuter routes

mattsaw

Origamist wrote:

Here's three situations with pedestrians and issues relating to ceding priority and hazard perception. As you can see, I spotted the clues in two of the three instances:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FbPi5iq ... ature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxuOFsV- ... ature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMQh25SH ... ature=plcp

The 3rd link is exactly what I'm talking about.

Pedestrian stuck in the middle of the road, I slow-up to let them across and other cyclists come through on the inside.

Origamist

Mattsaw wrote:

Origamist wrote:

Here's three situations with pedestrians and issues relating to ceding priority and hazard perception. As you can see, I spotted the clues in two of the three instances:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FbPi5iq ... ature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxuOFsV- ... ature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMQh25SH ... ature=plcp

The 3rd link is exactly what I'm talking about.

Pedestrian stuck in the middle of the road, I slow-up to let them across and other cyclists come through on the inside.

Mmm, I could have proceeded in that vid, but I'm wary of pedestrians in those scenarios.

IME, you have to make a decision based on the circumstances at the time (a look behind, ideally over both shoulders). I'd certainly not recommend slowing/stopping as a matter of course to allow pedestrians to cross as it would not always be advisable to do so (i.e if you're part of a swarm of cyclists proceeding at pace, 2 abreast), but I'd also not be so dogmatic as to say that you should not cede priority when it appears safe and you have the opportunity to facilitate the progress of another vulnerable road user.

tallmansix

I've learnt something from watching those videos and the dozens of similar ones in the series, thanks.

Just cycle safely and stick to what you know is safe and learn every day, I already rate everyone on this forum as great cyclists just for being passionate enough to contribute even if they don't agree with me.

EKE_38BPM

When it comes to right of way on the road there are three options:
1) Give it
2) Take it
3) Have it taken away.

Imagine a narrow road with a parked car and two cars (lets call them A & approaching it from opposite directions.
1) The parked car is on B's side of the road. Car A leads a line of other cars. Car B is on it's own. Car A slows to a stop to allow Car B to come through the gap and then leads the line of cars. It has given away the right of way to minimise B's delay. If it didn't Car B would have to stop to wait for all of the cars to pass before proceeding.
2 & 3) The parked car is on A's side of the road. A moves into the opposite lane, causing B to slow, then moves back into the correct side of the road after passing the parked car. A took the right of way and took it away from B.

All three situations have their place in the real world. People who don't see that just make life harder than necessary for everyone.
Some people don't easily accept that the right of way has been taken away from them and get all road-ragey for no good reason.

rick_chasey

tallmansix wrote:

I've learnt something from watching those videos and the dozens of similar ones in the series, thanks.

Just cycle safely and stick to what you know is safe and learn every day, I already rate everyone on this forum as great cyclists just for being passionate enough to contribute even if they don't agree with me.

I wouldn't rate myself as a great cyclist!

t4tomo

Rick Chasey wrote:

The amount of times I've had problems because someone in a car has SUDDENLY decided to let someone either turn onto our road or let oncoming traffic turn right - each time I'm screeching to a halt to try and avoid smashing into them.

You should slow down and stop driving like a c*ck then

peat

EKE_38BPM wrote:

When it comes to right of way on the road there are three options:
1) Give it
2) Take it
3) Have it taken away.

All three situations have their place in the real world. People who don't see that just make life harder than necessary for everyone.
Some people don't easily accept that the right of way has been taken away from them and get all road-ragey for no good reason.

^This.

It is what it is. It's your job to react accordingly.

Try riding a motorbike in SE Asia and you begin to realise that chaos actaully just kinda......'works'.