Silly question time: Why no Mountain TT's in the grand tours

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Comments

  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    skavanagh.bikeradar wrote:
    I'm sure I remember them doing one in the mid 80's and I've got a picture of Jean Francois Bernard burned into my mind wearing the 'bit of everything' jersey losing time.

    JFB monstered everyone on that TT and grabbed yellow. He broke Charly Gaul's 30 year record for an ascent of the Ventoux. He was subsequently done over in the following stage by Roche and Delgado when a split in the peloton cost him minutes.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • skavanagh.bikeradar
    skavanagh.bikeradar Posts: 1,097
    Good man Timoid, I knew someone would remember it better than I do! I'm sure I remember him on a climb losing time and as the reality sinks in he is crying his way up. Different tour maybe.
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    edited June 2012
    skavanagh.bikeradar wrote:
    Good man Timoid, I knew someone would remember it better than I do! I'm sure I remember him on a climb losing time and as the reality sinks in he is crying his way up. Different tour maybe.

    I think that was the next stage, but my memory may be playing me false. I remember the headband; at the I thought JFB was the shizzle. Just got Roche's book, signed an all so will refresh memory over the weekend.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Trust the Irishman to know the '87 Tour like the back of his hand.
    _
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Trust the Irishman to know the '87 Tour like the back of his hand.


    Yep, that great period when for a brief spell Ireland had the holders of The Tour, Giro, Vuelta and World Championships all at the same time.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    Bernard won the TT and moved into the race lead whilst wearing the combination jersey (with matching fleecy headband).

    000_arp1848684_600.jpg

    He did swap bikes, using a low pro for the section from Carpentras to Bedoin and then a road bike from there to the finish. He did look like he was crying as he came up the climb.

    bern87.jpg

    Put far to much effort into that stage and paid for it the next day where he was dropped on the final climb, Roche and Delgado working together to put time into him. But he also broke his on that stage, not sure if it was before or after they had started attacking him.

    actu_maillot_bernard_300.jpg

    You gotta have the matching headband! :D
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    pinarello001 wrote:
    Surely it would be a leveller. The last 'pure' climber to win the Tour was the late Marco Pantani in '98 and that was only because half the field was kicked out

    :? which of the kicked out riders could have challenged Pantani?
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,312
    Tom Dean wrote:
    pinarello001 wrote:
    Surely it would be a leveller. The last 'pure' climber to win the Tour was the late Marco Pantani in '98 and that was only because half the field was kicked out

    :? which of the kicked out riders could have challenged Pantani?

    Interesting question. Have to do some research for that one. I was simply underlining the fact that few 'pure' climbers actually win the GT's, despite some gallant efforts. Robert Millar ?!, Lucho Herrera, Richard Virenque, JFB: despite winning that Hilly TT it didn't change the overall etc etc, so in that there is an argumnet that says a hilly TT is not 'throwing the win' at a climber.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    pinarello001 wrote:
    Surely it would be a leveller. The last 'pure' climber to win the Tour was the late Marco Pantani in '98 and that was only because half the field was kicked out, before that, Delgado in '88.

    Wasn't Sastre the last "pure" climber to win the TdF?
  • shinyhelmut
    shinyhelmut Posts: 1,364
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    pinarello001 wrote:
    Surely it would be a leveller. The last 'pure' climber to win the Tour was the late Marco Pantani in '98 and that was only because half the field was kicked out, before that, Delgado in '88.

    Wasn't Sastre the last "pure" climber to win the TdF?

    Schleck surely? Or does a pure climber need to be able to descend too?
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    ShinyHelmut wrote:
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    pinarello001 wrote:
    Surely it would be a leveller. The last 'pure' climber to win the Tour was the late Marco Pantani in '98 and that was only because half the field was kicked out, before that, Delgado in '88.

    Wasn't Sastre the last "pure" climber to win the TdF?

    Schleck surely? Or does a pure climber need to be able to descend too?

    Arghh! I keep forgetting that! Think that desending is a very important skill for the "pure" climber not to have!
  • dougzz
    dougzz Posts: 1,833
    Schleck, 'Pure Climber' or 'Pure' climber :?
  • knedlicky
    knedlicky Posts: 3,097
    Timoid. wrote:
    skavanagh.bikeradar wrote:
    Good man Timoid, I knew someone would remember it better than I do! I'm sure I remember him on a climb losing time and as the reality sinks in he is crying his way up. Different tour maybe.
    I think that was the next stage, but my memory may be playing me false. I remember the headband; at the I thought JFB was the shizzle. Just got Roche's book, signed an all so will refresh memory over the weekend.
    It was the next stage, to Villard-de-Lans; Bernard lost 4 mins plus on Delgado and Roche, leaving him 2 mins behind them both.
    Bernard punctured near the top of the Col de Tourniol after about 100 km, and Mottet and Roche took advantage of Bernard's mishap to make an attack, taking along others with them (e.g. Delgado). Bernard was thereafter never able to close the gap (the stage was 185 km long).
    Those were the days before the political correctness of not attacking the yellow jersey. Let them return!

    Interesting you mention the headbands, usually coloured to match the jersey – they were the fashion of the time, the following year too, but less so.
    Overwide sunglasses seemed fashionable in ‘87 too (the following year some riders were wearing even larger glasses, more like goggles for downhill ski-ing or for scuba-diving).

    Helmets of a sort were also visible in ‘87, especially in the TTT and TTs (although one might expect in a TT there to be less risk of falling compared to when in the middle of the peloton).
    Several riders wore one of those helmets of hard rubber strips (Steve Bauer’s had the rubber strips coloured to match his jersey), while others (Roche included) wore what looked a stream-lined rock-climber’s helmet.
    The rock-climber type had been worn by some riders (including Hinault) in the time trials of ’85 and ’86, but for some reason were hardly present in ’88.
  • knedlicky
    knedlicky Posts: 3,097
    pinarello001 wrote:
    Surely it would be a leveller. The last 'pure' climber to win the Tour was the late Marco Pantani in '98 and that was only because half the field was kicked out, before that, Delgado in '88.
    Doesn't have to be brutally long, just enough to balance the time gains made in a flat(ish) TT. Maybe it would liven the tours up.
    I thought The Giro was excellent this year but Joaquin R missed out to a pre-determined Hesjedal effort. If Rodriguez had an extra 40 secs having gained it from a Mountain TT, the final time trial would not have been such a foregone conclusion and what a finale it would have been.
    I’m not convinced Rodriguez would make a great mountain TT-er, but I’d welcome the idea of including a hill climb TT in the TdF, after all hill climbs are part of many regular amateur race competition series, so hill climb TTs shouldn’t be that strange to TdF professionals from their amateur days.

    But on the other hand I’m not sure about including such TTs to ‘assist’ a pure climber to be a TdF winner. I think that may be balancing the books too far in the other direction.
    Given that much of the landscape of France is fairly flat, one could even say a pure climber shouldn’t win the TdF.

    What I’d actually like to see would be some system to reward/recognise the allrounders more, maybe by re-introducing the Combination Jersey.
  • shinyhelmut
    shinyhelmut Posts: 1,364
    Since '99 pretty much every mountain stage has ended up, essentially, as a mountain TT. It is very rare for a GC contendor to attack before the last climb of a mountain stage.
  • Abdoujaparov
    Abdoujaparov Posts: 642
    Not a fan of mountain TTs myself. They're possibly marginally more interesting than flat TTs in themselves, but as someone else mentioned they tip the balance overly towards climbers, which you'd have to throw in another 20-30km of flat TTing to counteract.

    Ideally for me, A GT should feature around 80km of flatish TTing and loads of mountains (while avoiding making the race a massacre).
  • itisaboutthebike
    itisaboutthebike Posts: 1,120
    "last time in '04 the crowd on the Aple was estimated to be over 500,000 "..................on the day it was estimated at a million (I was there and wouldn't be suprised)

    Lance and Basso et al said it was dangerous because there was so many people on the mtn , and the barriers only started babout 3/4 way up.

    I've been going to watch the Tour on the Alpe since '91 and it was sheer mayhem. Never again for a mtn TT.

    For the record Prance took over 2 mins out of Basso and effectively won the Tour.

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