Make change from Shimano gearing to Campagnolo gearing ?

Raffles
Raffles Posts: 1,137
edited June 2012 in Road beginners
From a bit of research, its apparent that the shifters which Campy supply are an awful lot shorter than the ones which Shimano sell. Shorter reach shifters would make such a comfort difference to my bike. I use Sora shifters, FSA front mech, 105 compact double and 105 rear derailleur at this time. Which componentry would I need to change if I opted to go for Campy gearing that would allow me to fit shorter reach shifters ?
2012 Cannondale CAAD 8 105
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Comments

  • ThanksBye
    ThanksBye Posts: 519
    Would need new cassette,chain,rear mech and either wheels or freehub body (can get around this with a problem solver cassette from miche) Front mech should be ok, but you would have to use it to find out.

    A cheaper option perhaps would be to fit shorter reach bars, eg FSA compacts, or shim your sora levers to bring the blade closer to the bar.
    Cotic Soul
    Pearson Hanzo
    Airborne Zeppelin
  • jomoj
    jomoj Posts: 777
    edited June 2012
    you'd need to change levers, rear mech, possibly front mech, not sure about the chain - so it's not cheap. By 'research' do you mean you've actually tried the campag levers out? I'd be surprised if there was much difference.

    In any case I'd suggest trying to change the lever position on the bars, the bars them selves or fitting shims to the levers to move them closer to the bars before chainging your entire groupset.
  • jomoj
    jomoj Posts: 777
    great minds...
  • Cleat Eastwood
    Cleat Eastwood Posts: 7,508
    just putting shifters on a bike with all shimano equipment wont work, the shifters have a different pull ratio so the indexing will eventually go out of sync. Your cheapest option is to get the shifters and a shiftmate

    http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.htm

    you can get veloce shifters for about 90 squid and the shiftmate for 30 .

    Otherwise you're looking at what they said ^^^
    The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns
    momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    edited June 2012
    Would the rear mech definitely need replacing? Surely all it needs is the right overall range available via the limit screws?

    Shimano did make shorter reach levers a while back - a friend of mine has some. I think they may have been 105. Not sure when they were last made but Shimano in their wisdom decided that only people with hands like shovels ride bikes so discontinued them in favour of the vast standard ones.......

    Ebay ought to provide........

    Edit: What do you know - still available - Shimano R700 Triple 10sp Short Reach STI Lever; possibly Ultegra level. Steep though - you'd need small hands to leave enough space in your pockets for the money to pay for them! :lol:
    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... 8eba86e7aa
    STR700PA%3BWarehouse%3BWarehouse.jpg
    Faster than a tent.......
  • BruceG
    BruceG Posts: 347
    Why not just buy some of the Shimano STI shims for a couple of quid, thus reducing the required reach.
  • Raffles
    Raffles Posts: 1,137
    BruceG wrote:
    Why not just buy some of the Shimano STI shims for a couple of quid, thus reducing the required reach.


    How do they work ?

    I assume there isnt a hoods position shift that has the shifters pointing ridiculously upwards ?
    2012 Cannondale CAAD 8 105
  • tiredofwhiners
    tiredofwhiners Posts: 598
    Raffles wrote:
    Shorter reach shifters would make such a comfort difference to my bike.

    Not fully understanding the difference but I would have thought that if the length of the shifter makes such a big difference, then there must a thousand other issues to do with comfort that need fixing first.

    It just sounds like changing the gearbox on the car because the gear knob is a funny shape ........... :?:
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    Raffles wrote:
    BruceG wrote:
    Why not just buy some of the Shimano STI shims for a couple of quid, thus reducing the required reach.
    How do they work ?

    I assume there isnt a hoods position shift that has the shifters pointing ridiculously upwards ?
    They basically fit into the levers to jam them open slightly, thus reducing the distance from the levers to the bars.

    On holiday with a hire bike for my wife, I did the same (rather less elegantly) with a couple of slivers of wood taped onto the top ends of the levers, so that when the levers are released they can't go all the way away from the bars.

    Spesh also make them http://www.evanscycles.com/products/spe ... r-ec008424
  • 53twelve
    53twelve Posts: 22
    edited June 2012
    You should be able to get away with just changing the shifters - or at least try that first before buying loads of gear.

    But, before spending anything, sit on a bike with Campy shifters and check the reach. I'm not sure about yours, but some levers let you adjust the reach anyway - also worth investigating before getting the wallet out.

    A rear mech is a parallelagram that moves to where your shifters tell it to, and is limited by the limit screws (funny that!). My old training bike used to use Campy 8-speed Ergoshifters, Sedis chain, a 105 front and rear mechs and a Miche screw-on 7-speed block. If the limiters on the mech are set correctly it won't allow you to go for the missing gear, and indexing can be a little fiddly, but it's not too arduous to get working - after all, Campy/Shim/SRAM mechs all shift parallel to the cassette and are governed by the lever throw - but more by the indexing adjuster barrel position...

    A complete groupset from one stable is ideal, but a mix and match will work - just don't take it to a shop to get fixed unless you're a fan of Not The Nine O'Clock News and the "Woofers and Tweeters" sketch (am I showing my age? :? )

    My current road bike uses Campy group and Mavic wheels which use the Marchisio cassette system to give me 9-speed Campy (yes, I know it needs updating, but it runs sooooooo sweet :D ).
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    tiredofwhiners wrote:
    Raffles wrote:
    Shorter reach shifters would make such a comfort difference to my bike.

    Not fully understanding the difference but I would have thought that if the length of the shifter makes such a big difference, then there must a thousand other issues to do with comfort that need fixing first.

    It just sounds like changing the gearbox on the car because the gear knob is a funny shape ........... :?:

    How would 'a thousand other issues' solve hands that aren't long enough for the hoods? Obviously, certain bar shapes could make a small difference but I can't really think of much that would address the gap between the bar and the brake lever being too large aside from shorter hoods.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    53twelve wrote:
    A rear mech is a parallelagram that moves to where your shifters tell it to, and is limited by the limit screws (funny that!). My old training bike used to use Campy 8-speed Ergoshifters, Sedis chain, a 105 front and rear mechs and a Miche screw-on 7-speed block. If the limiters on the mech are set correctly it won't allow you to go for the missing gear, and indexing can be a little fiddly, but it's not too arduous to get working - after all, Campy/Shim/SRAM mechs all shift parallel to the cassette and are governing by the lever throw - but more by the indexing adjuster barrel position...
    A rear mech is a parallelogram which moves to where the amount of cable pulled/released tells it to, and Shimano vs. Campag vs. SRAM, 8sp vs. 9sp. vs. 10sp all pull/release different amounts of cable per click.
    Indexing can be more than 'a little fiddly' : some combinations work perfectly, some near-enough, some not at all
  • 53twelve
    53twelve Posts: 22
    andy_wrx wrote:
    A rear mech is a parallelogram which moves to where the amount of cable pulled/released tells it to, and Shimano vs. Campag vs. SRAM, 8sp vs. 9sp. vs. 10sp all pull/release different amounts of cable per click.
    Indexing can be more than 'a little fiddly' : some combinations work perfectly, some near-enough, some not at all

    Which is why I added the "and are governed by the lever throw - but more by the indexing adjuster barrel position..." bit. The barrel adjuster tweaks the amount of cable pulled/released per click, so Campy levers can work with Shimano mechs etc - the difference between Campy/Shim/SRAM spacing is miniscule. I've managed to make virtually all combos work that I, or mates, have come up with - but then I do like to fettle and have the patience of a saint :D
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    53twelve wrote:
    The barrel adjuster tweaks the amount of cable pulled/released per click, so Campy levers can work with Shimano mechs etc

    You what ?
    The barrel adjuster adjusts the tension in the cable.
    Where on earth do you get your idea it alters the cable-pull from ?

    See the classic CTC 'Shimergo' page http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=3946
  • father_jack
    father_jack Posts: 3,509
    53twelve wrote:
    andy_wrx wrote:
    A rear mech is a parallelogram which moves to where the amount of cable pulled/released tells it to, and Shimano vs. Campag vs. SRAM, 8sp vs. 9sp. vs. 10sp all pull/release different amounts of cable per click.
    Indexing can be more than 'a little fiddly' : some combinations work perfectly, some near-enough, some not at all

    Which is why I added the "and are governed by the lever throw - but more by the indexing adjuster barrel position..." bit. The barrel adjuster tweaks the amount of cable pulled/released per click, so Campy levers can work with Shimano mechs etc - the difference between Campy/Shim/SRAM spacing is miniscule. I've managed to make virtually all combos work that I, or mates, have come up with - but then I do like to fettle and have the patience of a saint :D

    Wrong. The barrell adjuster is a fine adjustment for cable stretch it has nothing to do with cable pull ratio.

    If OP cannot get on with Shimano shifters tbh I'd just buy another bike, the cost of replacing the whole groupset plus freewheel/wheel would be equal to a new bike.
    Say... That's a nice bike..
    Trax T700 with Lew Racing Pro VT-1 ;-)
  • 53twelve
    53twelve Posts: 22
    andy_wrx wrote:
    53twelve wrote:
    The barrel adjuster tweaks the amount of cable pulled/released per click, so Campy levers can work with Shimano mechs etc

    You what ?
    The barrel adjuster adjusts the tension in the cable.
    Where on earth do you get your idea it alters the cable-pull from ?

    See the classic CTC 'Shimergo' page http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=3946

    Err...from several years experience working in the cycle trade. And this is the barrel adjuster where the cable enters the rear mech, right? If your gears aren't shifting up the cassette correctly, you screw anti-clock and the lever throws the mech further. If its moving too far per click, screw clockwise and it throws it less. Just use this to adjust so any lever works with any mech (pretty much). Easy.
  • 53twelve
    53twelve Posts: 22
    Father Jack wrote:
    53twelve wrote:
    andy_wrx wrote:
    A rear mech is a parallelogram which moves to where the amount of cable pulled/released tells it to, and Shimano vs. Campag vs. SRAM, 8sp vs. 9sp. vs. 10sp all pull/release different amounts of cable per click.
    Indexing can be more than 'a little fiddly' : some combinations work perfectly, some near-enough, some not at all

    Which is why I added the "and are governed by the lever throw - but more by the indexing adjuster barrel position..." bit. The barrel adjuster tweaks the amount of cable pulled/released per click, so Campy levers can work with Shimano mechs etc - the difference between Campy/Shim/SRAM spacing is miniscule. I've managed to make virtually all combos work that I, or mates, have come up with - but then I do like to fettle and have the patience of a saint :D

    Wrong. The barrell adjuster is a fine adjustment for cable stretch it has nothing to do with cable pull ratio.

    If OP cannot get on with Shimano shifters tbh I'd just buy another bike, the cost of replacing the whole groupset plus freewheel/wheel would be equal to a new bike.

    Errr...see my last post... I know it works, done it many times (and it was an ex-colleague bike mechanic who showed me)
  • BruceG
    BruceG Posts: 347
    53twelve wrote:
    andy_wrx wrote:
    53twelve wrote:
    The barrel adjuster tweaks the amount of cable pulled/released per click, so Campy levers can work with Shimano mechs etc

    You what ?
    The barrel adjuster adjusts the tension in the cable.
    Where on earth do you get your idea it alters the cable-pull from ?

    See the classic CTC 'Shimergo' page http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=3946

    Err...from several years experience working in the cycle trade. And this is the barrel adjuster where the cable enters the rear mech, right? If your gears aren't shifting up the cassette correctly, you screw anti-clock and the lever throws the mech further. If its moving too far per click, screw clockwise and it throws it less. Just use this to adjust so any lever works with any mech (pretty much). Easy.

    Couldnt be more wrong if you tried, adjusting the barrel adjuster where the cable enters the rear mech does not have any effect on the amount of movement, so it cannot "make it move further", as others have said it adjusts the tension on the cable. In this instance it used to adjust the indexing of the gears. So in essence the barrel adjuster moves the start postion of the pull, not the amount. The amount of movement is controlled by the STI, it is this that differs between Shimano and campagnolo. The amount of pull generated by the STI, matches the spacing on the cassette and the design of the rear derailleur, thus the shifters are not fully interchangeable between systems as you will not be able to set the indexing correctly across the entire range of the cassette.
  • father_jack
    father_jack Posts: 3,509
    53twelve wrote:
    Father Jack wrote:
    53twelve wrote:
    andy_wrx wrote:
    A rear mech is a parallelogram which moves to where the amount of cable pulled/released tells it to, and Shimano vs. Campag vs. SRAM, 8sp vs. 9sp. vs. 10sp all pull/release different amounts of cable per click.
    Indexing can be more than 'a little fiddly' : some combinations work perfectly, some near-enough, some not at all

    Which is why I added the "and are governed by the lever throw - but more by the indexing adjuster barrel position..." bit. The barrel adjuster tweaks the amount of cable pulled/released per click, so Campy levers can work with Shimano mechs etc - the difference between Campy/Shim/SRAM spacing is miniscule. I've managed to make virtually all combos work that I, or mates, have come up with - but then I do like to fettle and have the patience of a saint :D

    Wrong. The barrell adjuster is a fine adjustment for cable stretch it has nothing to do with cable pull ratio.

    If OP cannot get on with Shimano shifters tbh I'd just buy another bike, the cost of replacing the whole groupset plus freewheel/wheel would be equal to a new bike.

    Errr...see my last post... I know it works, done it many times (and it was an ex-colleague bike mechanic who showed me)


    What bike shop did you learn this nugget of knowledge? So I know not to get my bike serviced there :lol:
    Say... That's a nice bike..
    Trax T700 with Lew Racing Pro VT-1 ;-)
  • snoopsmydogg
    snoopsmydogg Posts: 1,110
    Father Jack wrote:
    What bike shop did you learn this nugget of knowledge? So I know not to get my bike serviced there :lol:

    was thinking the same :oops:
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    He 'worked in the cycle trade', which could mean anything, but it was an 'ex-colleague' who was the bike mechanic

    Either that or we're being trolled :lol:
  • BruceG
    BruceG Posts: 347
    andy_wrx wrote:
    He 'worked in the cycle trade', which could mean anything, but it was an 'ex-colleague' who was the bike mechanic

    Either that or we're being trolled :lol:
    Whatever neither clearly have a clue about bike mechanicals
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    Look at this post - it's his bike
    viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=12855259

    Spec includes (my italics)
    Chorus 9spd group (I said I've been off it 10+ years!) except Record carbon shifters (and Marchisio cassette to run Campy on Shimano fit wheels)
    Mavic Cosmic Elite wheels

    Now why the Marchisio cassette if it's just a matter of the barrel adjuster ? :lol::lol::lol:
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    53twelve wrote:
    Err...from several years experience working in the cycle trade. And this is the barrel adjuster where the cable enters the rear mech, right? If your gears aren't shifting up the cassette correctly, you screw anti-clock and the lever throws the mech further. If its moving too far per click, screw clockwise and it throws it less. Just use this to adjust so any lever works with any mech (pretty much). Easy.

    I think you'd better explain the mechanical engineering theory behind this. All the adjusters on the rear mechs of my bikes just alter the effective length of the cable between the lever and the mechanism itself. There'd need to be some tiny cam type device hidden in there for it to do anything cleverer than that. And there isn't anything like that in there! Mr Campagnolo doesn't think there is anything complicated in there either (or if he does, he is lying in his instructions!).
    Faster than a tent.......
  • 53twelve
    53twelve Posts: 22
    Well, all I'm going to say is I'm very happy with the performance of all the bikes I've built over the years, and so are my previous customers - they've rather enjoyed being able to either mix and match groupsets, or make gradual transitions from one stable to another - or just make the most of any spare parts on training bikes etc.

    I know it works, and I was trying to make the point to the OP that they don't necessarily have to buy loads of bits to make the change! Campy shifters can quite easily be made to work with Shimano hubs or vice versa.

    That's all I'm saying on the matter - it can work, end of! Goodnight Vienna :)
  • father_jack
    father_jack Posts: 3,509
    I suppose if you want a single speed, sure.
    Say... That's a nice bike..
    Trax T700 with Lew Racing Pro VT-1 ;-)
  • BruceG
    BruceG Posts: 347
    Who is Vienna? Perhaps it is the bike shop specialist who can make a barrel adjuster alter the lever throw!
  • Wirral_paul
    Wirral_paul Posts: 2,476
    53twelve wrote:
    Well, all I'm going to say is I'm very happy with the performance of all the bikes I've built over the years, and so are my previous customers - they've rather enjoyed being able to either mix and match groupsets, or make gradual transitions from one stable to another - or just make the most of any spare parts on training bikes etc.

    I know it works, and I was trying to make the point to the OP that they don't necessarily have to buy loads of bits to make the change! Campy shifters can quite easily be made to work with Shimano hubs or vice versa.

    That's all I'm saying on the matter - it can work, end of! Goodnight Vienna :)

    You're still wrong about the barrel adjuster. As many said - all they do is fine tweak the tension. Yes turning them anti-clockwise helps on the downshift to the rear mech but thats because you're adding tension to the cable resulting in the rear derailleur being a little further towards the spokes in every gear.

    Campy shifter may be made to work on a Shimano cassette but never going to be as good a shift as achieved by a Shimano shifter in every gear - its a bodge.
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    Unless you fit a Marchisio conversion cassette :lol::lol::lol:
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    53twelve wrote:
    Well, all I'm going to say is I'm very happy with the performance of all the bikes I've built over the years, and so are my previous customers - they've rather enjoyed being able to either mix and match groupsets, or make gradual transitions from one stable to another - or just make the most of any spare parts on training bikes etc.

    You may well have built many bikes and done a good job of them but it doesn't necessarily mean that you understand the mechanics of what you are doing. Eg see the Campag instructions here: http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/doc/doccatid_4.jsp

    From the Rear Derailleur 11s instruction sheet
    Campagnolo wrote:
    Turn the cable tension adjuster (F - Fig. 10) until perfect alignment is obtained between the centreline of the top roller and the centreline of the fourth sprocket

    It is a tension adjuster - not a ratio adjuster.

    To suggest that the adjuster changes tension is no different to saying that tightening the top cap bolt makes the steering sharper!
    Faster than a tent.......

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