Do I go for a coil shock?

1mancity2

At the moment I have a rp2 on my Reign and all it has is rebound and propedal, I never use the propedal and I am using the bike more and more for DH and freeride/jumps so do I go for a coil shock to give me more support and which one would you buy?

estampida

air air air

1/2 the weight and quicker to service / repair

if its too xc in set up contact mojo or tf, and get it tuned to your requirements

lawman

estampida wrote:

air air air

1/2 the weight and quicker to service / repair

if its too xc in set up contact mojo or tf, and get it tuned to your requirements

This. Unless you go for a top-end coil, I.e. a Double Barrel or a BOS stoy, then an air shock will more than good enough if its tuned right. Personally my choice of shock would be a BOS Vip'r or a new RP23 kashima, seeing as you have a fox already, I would have it tuned and kashima'd by mojo and I bet you would notice more difference than switching to an the off the shelf coil shock like a Vivid or RC4.

Thewaylander

Coil, Far far far far more sensative than any air shock...

If your not pedalling up hardly at all bin the air shock IMO as if all yoru doing is DH and jump who gives much of monkies over weight?

.blitz

My Voltage has a bog-basic Van R and apart from the initial setup it is totally unobtrusive. It's heavier than an air shock but the simple coil and damper does everything (imo) that a much more complicated air shock does. Small bump sensitivity (not that it matters much DH) is sublime and the coil has a lovely, progressive feel with no surprises. The preload is set-and-forget and the compression & rebound damping just 'works'. Better riders than me have said it gets coil-bound on successive hits and the bottom out is harsh but hey ho.

The original 350lb spring was a little bit too soft for me but by no means intrusive. I've swapped it for a 400 and it rides just that bit firmer.

supersonic

Coil shocks do not give you more 'support'.

1mancity2

supersonic wrote:

Coil shocks do not give you more 'support'.

Wrong word, the back end just feels unplanted when pushing hard on DH stuff, its fine round trails.

Not bothered about weight as its setup now for going down, maybe a call to mojo or TF would help me decide what to do.

styxd

I dont see many downhill riders using air shocks. You sound like a downhill rider. Get a coil!

Thewaylander

.blitz wrote:

My Voltage has a bog-basic Van R and apart from the initial setup it is totally unobtrusive. It's heavier than an air shock but the simple coil and damper does everything (imo) that a much more complicated air shock does. Small bump sensitivity (not that it matters much DH) is sublime and the coil has a lovely, progressive feel with no surprises. The preload is set-and-forget and the compression & rebound damping just 'works'. Better riders than me have said it gets coil-bound on successive hits and the bottom out is harsh but hey ho.

The original 350lb spring was a little bit too soft for me but by no means intrusive. I've swapped it for a 400 and it rides just that bit firmer.

Repatative small bump impacy? sounds like root sections to me for far more grip. sensativity does matter on DH. In facts it's very useful

rockmonkeysc

I have run a DHX air and Van RC coil on my Reign X. Coil is far better. Meastro suspension pedals well enough with a coil & no pro-pedal.
Coil is much more sensitive, much plusher & more controlled on hard hitting downhill trails. I wouldn't say it gives more support, thats down to the compression damper.
The better senstivity gives you a surprising amount of extra grip just by keeping the rear tyre firmly planted on the ground.
Just make sure you have got the space for the larger shock body.

mrmonkfinger

The bike looks a fair way from a DH rig - I'd have though an air shock with better compression controls might be a choice better matched with the 140mm revs on the front - roco air rc / manitou swinger expert / CC air ?

.blitz wrote:

My Voltage has a bog-basic Van R and apart from the initial setup it is totally unobtrusive. It's heavier than an air shock but the simple coil and damper does everything (imo) that a much more complicated air shock does

Except for the complicated bits, presumably. The damper in an air can is the same as the damper on a coil unit. The spring is the only difference.

I've never been sure why people assume there is anything magical about coil units.

Thewaylander

mrmonkfinger wrote:

The bike looks a fair way from a DH rig - I'd have though an air shock with better compression controls might be a choice better matched with the 140mm revs on the front - roco air rc / manitou swinger expert / CC air ?

.blitz wrote:

My Voltage has a bog-basic Van R and apart from the initial setup it is totally unobtrusive. It's heavier than an air shock but the simple coil and damper does everything (imo) that a much more complicated air shock does

Except for the complicated bits, presumably. The damper in an air can is the same as the damper on a coil unit. The spring is the only difference.

I've never been sure why people assume there is anything magical about coil units.

How many coils have your ridden with comparison to air?

Coild do not suffer from rising rates problems of air, and are far far more sensative.Air shocks are good these days, but performance wise still not in the same league as coild shock.

But coil's are heavy so if you want to pedal all day air makes sense also the easy variation of spring on air with a pump is great for most people.

1mancity2

mrmonkfinger wrote:

The bike looks a fair way from a DH rig - I'd have though an air shock with better compression controls might be a choice better matched with the 140mm revs on the front - roco air rc / manitou swinger expert / CC air ?

I have 160mm Domains on mine and the coil is far more sensitive than the Revs ever were over big hits, and its well up for the job of DH you get here, abroad maybe not.

lawman

Thewaylander wrote:

How many coils have your ridden with comparison to air?

Likewise how many airs have you ridden to compare to coils? Air forks and shocks are very, very good these days. I think the main reason you don't see air shocks on the top DH race bikes is because of heat build up that can sometimes happen on a long, rough track. On a bike like a reign, regardless of the fork, its going to have been designed around an air shock, which should tell you all you need to know about what you should get.

The DHX Air is a shite shock and always has been. Shocks like the monarch plus, Vip'r and CCDB air would probably be a match for any coil shock fitted to a reign. I think alot of people fool themselves into thinking they need a coil, the fact is if you don't know what you're doing with it, its still gonna ride awfully, but because its a coil, it'll be the best thing since sliced bread. If you know what you want, get a proper custom tuned shock that you think would suit you, you could buy an off-the -shelf coil and find it doesn't suit the bike and you're back to where you started but with a heavier bike and a lighter wallet.

rockmonkeysc

http://ride.io/forum/index.php/topic,264066.0.html

Thread here about fitting a coil to a Nukeproof Mega but the op says that the used to run a col on hi Reign & it was a lot better than the air shock.
Biggest difference is that air is progressive, as the shock compresses it gets stiffer, a coil is linear so the same stiffness through the whol stroke. As an air shock compresses and gets stiffer you loose the sensitivity to small bumps. This means that if for example you are in a berm or compression & your air shock is already very compressed it won't react very well to small bumps but a coil will.
My Reign X rides much better with a coil. It came with a coil shock & I put on the air shock to make it lighter, the performance wasn't as good as I expected so I wen't back to the coil.
Even the shorter travel Reign is a tough bike, probably stronger than the Reign X as it doesn't have the weak bottom link to clear the chain device tabs.
Fitting a Ti spring to a coil shock makes a good weight saving though still not as light as an air shock.

supersonic

With that frame yes. And maybe yours. But leverage ratios and progression plays a huge part too. Some frames have leverage rates that counter any air pressure increase and are designed round this. You can still have falling suspension rates with air shocks.

And obviously not all air shocks are the same. With a variety of sized cans available, lots of damper options and tuning, a good air shock will perform extremely well.

mrmonkfinger

Thewaylander wrote:

How many coils have your ridden with comparison to air?

I've never ridden a Giant Reign. But as it comes with an air can, my presumption was that the frame works better with the rising rate of an air can.

Thewaylander wrote:

Coild do not suffer from rising rates problems of air

Having a rising rate is not a problem; the rate is simply a parameter of the can. The non-linearity of the rate can be altered by air can volume (as you probably already know) and the ratio of volume extended to volume compressed - and a large volume air can (e.g. CCDB) is far more linear than a smaller unit like the RP2.

On a frame with falling rate a coil spring's linearity would actually be a problem in itself and the frame better matched to an air can.

Thewaylander wrote:

and are far far more sensative.Air shocks are good these days, but performance wise still not in the same league as coild shock.

I guess you're talking about 'stiction'. Can't argue with that, that's the real trade-off between coil and air. Stiction versus weight.

Thewaylander wrote:

But coil's are heavy so if you want to pedal all day air makes sense also the easy variation of spring on air with a pump is great for most people.

Agreed.

mrmonkfinger

RockmonkeySC wrote:

My Reign X rides much better with a coil. It came with a coil shock & I put on the air shock to make it lighter, the performance wasn't as good as I expected so I wen't back to the coil.

I think you've just made a very good point about matching spring rate to a frame.

rockmonkeysc

I've never ridden a Giant Reign. But as it comes with an air can, my presumption was that the frame works better with the rising rate of an air can.

This might not be quite true. Giant sell the Reign X with air or coil shock depending on spec. They also did the same with the Faith. There are other bikes which come with air or coil options on the same frame.
The Reign is Giant's lighter all mountain bike so they probably fitted the air shock to save weigh.

Thewaylander

lawman wrote:

Thewaylander wrote:

How many coils have your ridden with comparison to air?

Likewise how many airs have you ridden to compare to coils? Air forks and shocks are very, very good these days. I think the main reason you don't see air shocks on the top DH race bikes is because of heat build up that can sometimes happen on a long, rough track. On a bike like a reign, regardless of the fork, its going to have been designed around an air shock, which should tell you all you need to know about what you should get.

The DHX Air is a shite shock and always has been. Shocks like the monarch plus, Vip'r and CCDB air would probably be a match for any coil shock fitted to a reign. I think alot of people fool themselves into thinking they need a coil, the fact is if you don't know what you're doing with it, its still gonna ride awfully, but because its a coil, it'll be the best thing since sliced bread. If you know what you want, get a proper custom tuned shock that you think would suit you, you could buy an off-the -shelf coil and find it doesn't suit the bike and you're back to where you started but with a heavier bike and a lighter wallet.

Alot not one has come close to a coild for sensativity. at all there way better than they were but still not a patch on a coil

rockmonkeysc

If air shocks are matching coils for performance why are manufacturers selling carbon DH race bikes with light weight components and a big heavy coil shock?

supersonic

But some do fit air shocks. Some give a choice.

1mancity2

Cheers for the input guys,

rang both TF tuned and Mojo, told them what I do and what the shock is doing and both said a Coil would be better than an air shock for what im doing, so next question,

Which one? :roll:

budget around the £400 mark

rockmonkeysc

Van RC is perfectly decent & dead reliable.

lawman

RockmonkeySC wrote:

If air shocks are matching coils for performance why are manufacturers selling carbon DH race bikes with light weight components and a big heavy coil shock?

There is still a stigma in DH that coil shocks are better, which on a seriously rough like fort william is probably true, but for most of the time I would say a well tuned, gravity-orientated air shock would be a better bet on a lot of bikes. My guess is you aren't going to be tackling alpine terrain every weekend, the rp2 is an xc/am shock, what I'm suggesting is a more DH style air shock, a vivid or CCDB air or maybe the new BOS Dh air shock when it comes out, is a much, much better bet on a bike like a reign. the leverage ratios on your particular are designed around an air shock, so will most likely be set so the linkages have a falling rate, in which case a coil would need to be tuned to replicate the ramp up of the air shock to stop harsh bottoming out. this will require a custom tuning and add yet more expense, unless of course a CCDB or Stoy is what you go for, but they are mega money.

On a £400 budget, you're seriously limited unless you find a cracking deal on a shock in the right size, so its pretty much either a vivid, or a van rc with a ti spring

mrmonkfinger

RockmonkeySC wrote:

This might not be quite true. Giant sell the Reign X with air or coil shock depending on spec. They also did the same with the Faith. There are other bikes which come with air or coil options on the same frame.
The Reign is Giant's lighter all mountain bike so they probably fitted the air shock to save weigh.

Fair points about the Reign X.

Although not convinced about the Reign's suspension rate, I suspect that's tweaked for an air can. I'm open to being proved wrong

rockmonkeysc

The Giant Factory DH team used Reign X's at Crankworx & Sea Otter, both tracks are no rougher than an average UK downhill trails and they chose to run coil shocks. If air was lighter & works as well why wouldn't they use air shocks? They were running a lighter bike than normal so surely thay won't want unnesecary weight on it.

supersonic

Why didn't they use tyre A rather than tyre B? It's preference. Some like to use air. Some like to use coil. Some look more at the damper. Is no right or wrong here.

mrmonkfinger

RockmonkeySC wrote:

The Giant Factory DH team used Reign X's at Crankworx & Sea Otter, both tracks are no rougher than an average UK downhill trails and they chose to run coil shocks. If air was lighter & works as well why wouldn't they use air shocks? They were running a lighter bike than normal so surely thay won't want unnesecary weight on it.

could be any number of reasons why they didn't

perhaps they're superstitious and believe that walking under ladders, wearing flourescent underpants, and using air cans, all lose races...


I'm not sure what the Giant Factory dh team use on a Reign X is that relevant to the choice of air can or coil on a regular Reign, which is a different bike and, realistically, a different application.

rockmonkeysc

Reign and Reign X are very, very similar to ride. The X just has an extra 10mm travel and heavier tubes. Suspension design is exactly the same with very similar linkage rates.

lawman

In all honesty judging by how the reign is intended to be ridden as light all-rounder and looking at the OP's build thread, the kit on that, heavy-duty forks, saint etc and the conditions he says he wants to ride in, leaning more towards DH and a coil shock, he'd be better off forgetting the reign all together and getting something suitably burlier that is designed around a coil and the type of riding he does, rather than try to turn the reign into a bike it was never meant to be. Everything on the bike suggests he needs something burlier, a coil shock with heavy duty kit = new frame time.