Racing, going into the red and recovery

amaferanga

I've had a couple of disappointing race results of late and both have been on nasty hilly circuits with >15% climbs where I've gone into the red just to stay with the bunch. Today, on the first lap in the CDNW race on the Bole Hill circuit near Buxton, just to stay with the bunch up one of the hills (Bole Hill) I did an all time power best for 2min30s to 3min30s. 3min30s was at 450W (6.5W/kg, 145% FTP) and around 75W more than I do when I do 6x3min intervals. That was pretty much it for me. I clung on for a bit, but with no chance to recover on such a hilly circuit I soon got dropped by the bunch.

So here's what I'm wondering. Did all 40 or so guys that were still with the main bunch find 6.5W/kg for >3min easier than me or did they just recover better/quicker? Should I be able to recover from an all out 3min effort at the start of a race? What could I have done in the race if anything to at least survive? I'm pretty sure the pace will have dropped after a couple of laps. Just how many W/kg do you need to stick it on a hilly E/1/2 race? :?

ric/rstsport

sounds about right. in the divs a few years back we had a 3minute climb (may have been 4mins) that i needed to climb at ~6.0 W/kg for 10 laps.

If the others survived, they a) found it easier than you, and b) recovered quicker. your recovery is dictated by your aerobic metabolism, so the higher your lactate threshold (and your FTP) along with your VO2max & MAP the faster you recover and the easier it is. sounds like it was just too hard for you.

So, you probably need to increase your sustainable power and MAP and possibly be leaner (?)

Have you thought of coaching to bring you on?

twotyred

Have you thought of coaching to bring you on?

Nice one

Maybe they were just born better than you.

amaferanga

twotyred wrote:

Maybe they were just born better than you.

I don't doubt that that's the case for some or even most of the Elites and 1st Cats. So what do you suggest I do? Give up? Or should I try to work on the areas of my racing that are lacking when I come up against E/1 riders?

amaferanga

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

sounds about right. in the divs a few years back we had a 3minute climb (may have been 4mins) that i needed to climb at ~6.0 W/kg for 10 laps.

If the others survived, they a) found it easier than you, and b) recovered quicker. your recovery is dictated by your aerobic metabolism, so the higher your lactate threshold (and your FTP) along with your VO2max & MAP the faster you recover and the easier it is. sounds like it was just too hard for you.

So, you probably need to increase your sustainable power and MAP and possibly be leaner (?)

Have you thought of coaching to bring you on?

Thanks Ric. I guess I've underestimated just how good some 1st Cats and Elites actually are. There's no way at the moment I could do 6W/kg for 3 or 4 minutes x 10. If I dropped 4kg though and maintained my current power or upped it even a little then I'd be getting close. I could definitely be leaner. It get's tricky for me at this time of year fitting training in around racing since I'm racing at least every Thursday and Sunday, which leaves only a couple of days for proper training.

As for coaching, I'd wish I could afford it, but I'd struggle to get even some basic coaching package past the accountant (aka the girlfriend). I think I've probably reached the level where I'll stay using my own hit-or-miss training approach (despite good intentions to be completely structured in what I do). Maybe I should just go back to racing chipper chipper 2/3/4 races and be happy that I'm at least competitive in those....

ric/rstsport

being based in sheffield (it looks like?) you must have access to plenty of good hills. you could probably try hitting some of them at the power you needed in the race as an interval session.

we will, hopefully quite soon, have Training Plans for sale (which wouldn't include any coaching and be significantly cheaper).

Having said all that the Bole Hill is my most hated circuit anywhere! even when i've been going well i've ridden like a bag of spanners on that circuit. (at least how the circuit was the last time i rode it, which must be about 1991).

there's also something to be said about racing less frequently, but that's another discussion!
ric

Tom Butcher

No advice but has anyone got a link to a map of the circuit - being relatively local I'd be interested in what roads it uses.

amaferanga

Tom Butcher wrote:

No advice but has anyone got a link to a map of the circuit - being relatively local I'd be interested in what roads it uses.

Garmin

dawebbo

My advice is never do Bole Hill. In fact never even say the name again!

ric/rstsport

plus 1. lolol

GiantMike

I rode in the Yorkshire Road Race Champs on 21 May (Masters category). I got dropped on lap 2 (as you described, going into the red and then not being able to recover enough to be able to get back to the bunch) and ended up pretty much alone for the next 3.5 laps (35 miles). At the finish I was 4 mins off the leader (~7 secs per mile) despite not having the shelter of the bunch.

I decided that I need lose weight and do more hill training. Or stick to 1 hour flat crits. I never thought of trying to improve my recovery. I will now.

amaferanga

GiantMike wrote:

I rode in the Yorkshire Road Race Champs on 21 May (Masters category). I got dropped on lap 2 (as you described, going into the red and then not being able to recover enough to be able to get back to the bunch) and ended up pretty much alone for the next 3.5 laps (35 miles). At the finish I was 4 mins off the leader (~7 secs per mile) despite not having the shelter of the bunch.

I decided that I need lose weight and do more hill training. Or stick to 1 hour flat crits. I never thought of trying to improve my recovery. I will now.

Ha that was my other sh!t race (only not the masters for me). Similar scenario to the Bole Hill race, only it was repeated 1min efforts up the steep hill that did for me that time after about 90 mins of racing.

Maglia

Really interesting to get some real feedback on the power requirements of UK racing. I've been using Allen and Coggans powerchart to keep track of my improvement since getting a powermeter earlier this year when I returned to racing after a ten year hiatus.

I've placed in a 2/3/4 road race and won a 3/4s crit with a w/kg of 4.34 at FTP and a five minute best of 5.5 w/kg although I have comparatively poor 1 minute and 5 second figures. The idea that to live with an E/1/2 road race I'd have to climb at 6+w/kg is a scary thought...

ric/rstsport

my FTP when i was training properly was about the same as yours. this allowed me to get around many 1/2/3 or e/1/2 races. my best 5-min power was higher than yours tho (and most hills here in the UK are 5mins or less...) but my 1-min and 5-sec figures were so bad (still are) that it's laughable. (i joke that dead people could outsprint me at the end of a race, or my 6 yr old!).

but your power can be improved.

jibberjim

Maglia wrote:

I've placed in a 2/3/4 road race and won a 3/4s crit with a w/kg of 4.34 at FTP and a five minute best of 5.5 w/kg although I have comparatively poor 1 minute and 5 second figures. The idea that to live with an E/1/2 road race I'd have to climb at 6+w/kg is a scary thought...

2/3 road race, 485 watts 6.5w/kg for 3 minutes had me only getting off the back of the 2nd split on the steep part, break of ~8 or so down the road, followed it up with 4.5 for 2minutes to get into that 2nd split - but those who were willing to work in that group were just as screwed or worse than me. http://app.strava.com/rides/221780 So I can well believe the E/1/2's are even more aggressive - probably the toughest climbing 2/3 field you get in the UK though.

It eased off a lot on the subsequent 2 laps - although I tried attacking to get away from the bunch 8.5 minutes at 5w/kg just got me pulled back at the top of the steepest part, so not a particularly valuable break...

On the original point, I've certainly often had trouble climbing with the bunch on a steep hill early in the race as I just don't have the anaerobic capacity to really go with them, but it recovers faster and on subsequent laps the higher aerobic efforts I have tend to make it seem relatively easy even though the overall speed up the climb is just a few seconds slower.

Maglia

I've a feeling that genetic limitations mean that I'm not going to transform myself into a sprinter...

I suppose it largely depends on the races I enter and general tactics but does anyone have an idea if it would it be better to improve my strengths or work on my weaknesses?

ric/rstsport

Maglia wrote:

I've a feeling that genetic limitations mean that I'm not going to transform myself into a sprinter...

I suppose it largely depends on the races I enter and general tactics but does anyone have an idea if it would it be better to improve my strengths or work on my weaknesses?

ok, so i don't know if you're my twin brother (!!!!), but as mentioned i'm naff at efforts that are less than say 3mins and no amount of training seems to make any difference. so i concentrate on my strengths.

ric

amaferanga

jibberjim wrote:

Maglia wrote:

I've placed in a 2/3/4 road race and won a 3/4s crit with a w/kg of 4.34 at FTP and a five minute best of 5.5 w/kg although I have comparatively poor 1 minute and 5 second figures. The idea that to live with an E/1/2 road race I'd have to climb at 6+w/kg is a scary thought...

2/3 road race, 485 watts 6.5w/kg for 3 minutes had me only getting off the back of the 2nd split on the steep part, break of ~8 or so down the road, followed it up with 4.5 for 2minutes to get into that 2nd split - but those who were willing to work in that group were just as screwed or worse than me. http://app.strava.com/rides/221780 So I can well believe the E/1/2's are even more aggressive - probably the toughest climbing 2/3 field you get in the UK though.

It eased off a lot on the subsequent 2 laps - although I tried attacking to get away from the bunch 8.5 minutes at 5w/kg just got me pulled back at the top of the steepest part, so not a particularly valuable break...

On the original point, I've certainly often had trouble climbing with the bunch on a steep hill early in the race as I just don't have the anaerobic capacity to really go with them, but it recovers faster and on subsequent laps the higher aerobic efforts I have tend to make it seem relatively easy even though the overall speed up the climb is just a few seconds slower.

That's interesting Jim. Which race is that? How tall are you? Doesn't sound like you're that well suited to hilly races if you don't mind me saying.

I also find that if I can make it past the first half of a hilly race I come good in the second half, but in hilly E/1/2 races at the moment I'm struggling to make it that far.

GiantMike

Out of interest, what are we using for 'going into the red'? For me it's an effort where I can't do anything effective for a while afterwards, but is there a proper definition?

jibberjim

amaferanga wrote:

That's interesting Jim. Which race is that? How tall are you? Doesn't sound like you're that well suited to hilly races if you don't mind me saying.

Defynnog Mountain stage of the Ras de Cymru, and no I'm not suited to races with steep hills, long drags are good for me, but I get too easily bored in low cat racing so waste an awful lot of energy, and don't see the point in racing higher cats as I've no interest in just trying to survive. I'm 6' I could probably get down to 70-71kg if I was really taking cycle racing seriously without much effort, but generally around 75 is more normal as I like to eat. I'm not suited to flat races either, whilst my 20seconds is good (over 1000w) I can only do it in quite contrived situations and can't normally get anything out in a bunch sprint and my 1 minute is just not good enough to get me in position. Not that I had the balls to either.

It's why I don't really race - I'm crap at it, despite at various times having raw numbers that look similar to some other successful racers around here. Being a club run hero works for me these days.

amaferanga wrote:

I also find that if I can make it past the first half of a hilly race I come good in the second half, but in hilly E/1/2 races at the moment I'm struggling to make it that far.

I think that's the problem with UK races really - they almost all suit the very punchy rider, and the aerobic one doesn't get a chance.

GiantMike

jibberjim wrote:

I'm not suited to flat races either, whilst my 20seconds is good (over 1000w) I can only do it in quite contrived situations

Over 1000W? For 20 seconds?

Mine's about 700!

goes off to check what Golden Cheetah says

ric/rstsport

i've never been over 1000 W. there's a stack of Euro pros who've never been over 1000 W (even for 5-secs) and nor are all of them good climbers (in a Euro pro way).

ric/rstsport

i should add, i'm not a Euro pro. hahahaha! (not that anyone would ever make that mistake if they saw me in real life)

twotyred

It get's tricky for me at this time of year fitting training in around racing since I'm racing at least every Thursday and Sunday, which leaves only a couple of days for proper training.

Maybe race less and be more selective in the events you target and aim to peak for those. You may be too fatigued to get the best out of your training and racing.

Maybe I should just go back to racing chipper chipper 2/3/4 races and be happy that I'm at least competitive in those....

That's what I'd do but it sounds like you've got to get the Cat 1 thing out of your system and find out if you're good enough. That's why I reckon you should throttle back on the racing, get some quality training done and be at your absolute best for a couple of these races. Then, if you get your ass handed to you, you can be sure you performed to your maximum potential and go back to Cat 2/3/4 not asking "what if?"

Don't diss 2/3/4/ races I'd love to be good enough to be competitive in those but alas age and genetics say no.

amaferanga

twotyred wrote:

It get's tricky for me at this time of year fitting training in around racing since I'm racing at least every Thursday and Sunday, which leaves only a couple of days for proper training.

Maybe race less and be more selective in the events you target and aim to peak for those. You may be too fatigued to get the best out of your training and racing.

At the moment I think I'm lacking race fitness as much as anything and I'm far from being too fatigued. Race fitness is getting there though so maybe it is time for me to start targeting a few key races.

twotyred wrote:

Maybe I should just go back to racing chipper chipper 2/3/4 races and be happy that I'm at least competitive in those....

That's what I'd do but it sounds like you've got to get the Cat 1 thing out of your system and find out if you're good enough. That's why I reckon you should throttle back on the racing, get some quality training done and be at your absolute best for a couple of these races. Then, if you get your ass handed to you, you can be sure you performed to your maximum potential and go back to Cat 2/3/4 not asking "what if?"

Don't diss 2/3/4/ races I'd love to be good enough to be competitive in those but alas age and genetics say no.

[/quote]

I'm not even sure I want to be a 1st Cat, even if I was just about capable (and I'm not the only one - there's a guy that races around here who's a professional 2nd Cat scoring 198 or 199 points almost every year). But to race regularly without travelling silly distances as a 2nd Cat you have to do some E/1/2/3 and I'd like at he very least to be finishing those in the main bunch.