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Bruyneel's tough love?

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  • cycling5280cycling5280 Posts: 279
    Remarkable wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    Do you know, I'm trying to think of someone who has made more a fool out of themselves in their first week than cycling5280

    ...and I honestly can't...

    you must be a Schleck fan.

    Why do insist on talking censored about them? They don't know you. Its pretty easy to act big on a forum. I bet if you were to bump into them you would go weak at the knees. Do you race? If you do, you will understand just how hard racing is at any level.

    Anyhu....maybe its JB's way of motivating them. I've heard of some directer sportifs using that tactic over the last couple of years.

    I do race and in no way do I compare myself or think I'm better than the Schlecks. Those guys could drop me on a climb with one leg. That said, poking fun of them and questioning their strengths as potential Tour winners is part of being a professional athlete. If they somehow pull off this year's Tour I will be happy for them because it will make for a very good race. I will not be a hater like some forumites with regards to Lance Armstrong regardless of what the facts are. Saw the Schlecks in Colorado last year, no big deal. Jens Voigt was a class act signing autographs and interacting with people after every stage.
  • BakuninBakunin Posts: 868
    Who cares about Andy, the question is what is the Hog doing? There has to be more to the story than he can't handle conflict or that he is just an @ss.

    Whether it is through the needle, white paper bags of fun, or tactics -- Bruyneel tends to get the talent to perform.
    What is he doing and why? Why go off on Frank, why pull Kim Andersen out of the car, why threaten the Schelcks with no TdF (which is dumb) -- what is he doing? I don't see how this helps his riders be successful -- which is his job.

    Is Becca behind this? Didn't he give Nygaard the boot for last year (for LEO-pard's so-called disappointing year)? Where does Radioshack end and Becca begin.

    And just to be clear cycling 666, Armstrong was so doped, he helped turn the sport into a joke.
  • cycling5280cycling5280 Posts: 279
    And just to be clear cycling 666

    Name calling...love it.
  • TMRTMR Posts: 3,986
    Just don't post stupid untrue doping allegations on a forum. pretty simple.

    I feel sorry for you :(

    If you really think that Lance rode clean to 7 TdF victories against the finest athletes in the World, many of whom have since admitted doping or were caught doping at the time, then you need to give your head a shake.

    When I first became interested in road cycling I thought Lance was God on Earth. Then I opened my eyes and realised he's just a drug addled dirt bag. I hope you have a similar moment of clarity.
  • yourpaceormineyourpaceormine Posts: 1,245
    <ignoring the handbags at dawn this thread has degenerated into>

    What is going on at Radioshack/Leopard? Not had a glowing first half of the season have they? And to be honest can't really see them doing much more in the rest of the season either. The Shlecks really do seem out in the wilderness. Spartacus hasn't been on fire (good but not his usual self/ or simply a case of being too heavily marked/or both).

    Mass exodus (Leopard) at the end of the season, and the team reincarnating as USP/Disco/Radioshack mk1 amybe...
  • disgruntledgoatdisgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Is Lance Armstrong the cycling equivilent of Godwins law? If so, I can't believe I invoked his name. I am truly, truly sorry.

    As to Cycling's "AH HA HA HA!" rant... Of course it matters if your number one GC rider is happy and focused on his job. That's the job of team management, to take away the stress of worrying about anything other than riding a bike from their riders.

    Look at it this way, I currently work in a job I hate. I do what I have to do to meet expectations and continue to get paid every month. I think my management are incompetent so I never try to impress them, as I have zero respect for them and don't believe they value me. The job I'm moving to have called me 3 times since offering me the job to see if there's anything I need, they even sent me a nice card to welcome me to the organisation. Who do I want to work for more?

    Now apply this to Frank Schleck, who gets dropped into the Giro team with no preparation and no desire to ride, has a painful crash but one you would usually expect a pro to push on through, especially as a team leader in a Grand Tour and what does he do? Jumps in the car and heads home. Is Frank especially soft? Does he have a reputation for quitting at the drop of a hat (we'll leave aside moaning for now)? No, so what's the explanation?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,782

    What is going on at Radioshack/Leopard? Not had a glowing first half of the season have they? And to be honest can't really see them doing much more in the rest of the season either. The Shlecks really do seem out in the wilderness. Spartacus hasn't been on fire (good but not his usual self/ or simply a case of being too heavily marked/or both).

    Que? 2nd at M-SR, looked insanely strong, won the Eroica easily, then smashed his collarbone into pieces.

    No real mystery, he's not been riding until recently.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 20,507
    <ignoring the handbags at dawn this thread has degenerated into>

    What is going on at Radioshack/Leopard? Not had a glowing first half of the season have they? And to be honest can't really see them doing much more in the rest of the season either. The Shlecks really do seem out in the wilderness. Spartacus hasn't been on fire (good but not his usual self/ or simply a case of being too heavily marked/or both).

    Mass exodus (Leopard) at the end of the season, and the team reincarnating as USP/Disco/Radioshack mk1 amybe...
    You have a point here - but other than Canc, who else?

    The Schlecks were always going to focus on the Tour so who else is there on RNT who could genuinely have stirred things up? Frank had a surprise (?) shot at the Giro but crashed out, Zaugg had a crack on the Montirolo, that Jesse kid had a good go at the final TT...

    Who?

    (from Wikipedia)

    Jan Bakelants (BEL) (1986-02-14) 14 February 1986 (age 26)
    Daniele Bennati (ITA) (1980-09-24) 24 September 1980 (age 31)
    George Bennett (NZL) (1990-04-07) 7 April 1990 (age 22)
    Matthew Busche (USA) (1985-05-09) 9 May 1985 (age 27)
    Fabian Cancellara (SUI) (1981-03-18) 18 March 1981 (age 31) Laurent Didier (LUX) (1984-07-19) 19 July 1984 (age 27)
    Jakob Fuglsang (DEN) (1985-03-22) 22 March 1985 (age 27)
    Tony Gallopin (FRA) (1988-05-24) 24 May 1988 (age 24)
    Linus Gerdemann (GER) (1982-09-16) 16 September 1982 (age 29)
    Ben Hermans (BEL) (1986-06-08) 8 June 1986 (age 25)
    Chris Horner (USA) (1971-11-10) 10 November 1971 (age 40)
    Markel Irizar (ESP) (1980-02-05) 5 February 1980 (age 32)
    Ben King (USA) (1989-03-22) 22 March 1989 (age 23)
    Andreas Klöden (GER) (1975-06-22) 22 June 1975 (age 36)
    Tiago Machado (POR) (1985-10-18) 18 October 1985 (age 26)
    Maxime Monfort (BEL) (1983-01-14) 14 January 1983 (age 29)
    Giacomo Nizzolo (ITA) (1989-01-30) 30 January 1989 (age 23)
    Nelson Oliveira (POR) (1989-03-06) 6 March 1989 (age 23)
    Yaroslav Popovych (UKR) (1980-01-04) 4 January 1980 (age 32)
    Joost Posthuma (NED) (1981-03-08) 8 March 1981 (age 31)
    Grégory Rast (SUI) (1980-01-17) 17 January 1980 (age 32)
    Thomas Rohregger (AUT) (1982-12-23) 23 December 1982 (age 29)
    Hayden Roulston (NZL) (1981-01-10) 10 January 1981 (age 31)
    Andy Schleck (LUX) (1985-06-10) 10 June 1985 (age 26)
    Fränk Schleck (LUX) (1980-04-15) 15 April 1980 (age 32)

    Jesse Sergent (NZL) (1988-07-08) 8 July 1988 (age 23)
    Jens Voigt (GER) (1971-09-17) 17 September 1971 (age 40)
    Robert Wagner (GER) (1983-04-17) 17 April 1983 (age 29)
    Oliver Zaugg (SUI) (1981-05-09) 9 May 1981 (age 31)
    Haimar Zubeldia (ESP) (1977-04-01) 1 April 1977 (age 35)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ProssPross Posts: 24,260
    Robert Wagner did well in the final series of Hustle but never made it back to his old Hart to Hart form ;)
  • ProssPross Posts: 24,260
    ddraver wrote:
    Do you know, I'm trying to think of someone who has made more a fool out of themselves in their first week than cycling5280

    ...and I honestly can't...

    Cornoymade or whatever he's called but I think he should be excluded as he's obviously on performance enhancing drugs in the professional fool race.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 20,507
    I considered him, but I think he's just a prat out to cause trouble, he does nt genuinely think what he posts....

    Perhaps I'm wrong?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • andy_wrxandy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    Pross wrote:
    Robert Wagner did well in the final series of Hustle but never made it back to his old Hart to Hart form ;)

    "Dis is my boss, Jonatan Hoyt, a self-made millionaire. He's quoyt a goy.
    Dis is Mrs. H, she's goygious. What a terrific lady.
    By de way, my noym is Max. I take care of both of 'em, which ain't easy, 'cause their hobby is moydoh !"

    Yes, don't make 'em like that any more !
  • paul64paul64 Posts: 278
    Monty Dog wrote:
    Read Disgruntled Goat's post again, Lance was just more-juiced than anyone else and had the benefit of getting tipped-off when the Testers were coming and always had the 'get out of jail free' option of paying off the UCI. The only tactic JB employed was making sure the blood bags arrived safely and the liaisons with Dr Ferrari.

    I'm interested in the tone of some of the posts and not questioning Monty per se. I know forums where the owner/mods would pull posts like these saying they're not prepared to host material which could be libellous, say the AUP is being violated and sometimes ban the poster for a while. Hence surprise at posts like this, are these okay on the forum?
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,782
    paul64 wrote:

    I'm interested in the tone of some of the posts and not questioning Monty per se. I know forums where the owner/mods would pull posts like these saying they're not prepared to host material which could be libellous, say the AUP is being violated and sometimes ban the poster for a while. Hence surprise at posts like this, are these okay on the forum?

    I'd be amazed if there were any forums which would pull comments like these now. All of this has been widely reported in the mainstream press, appeared on 60 Minutes etc. Some people may choose not to accept it as truth despite everything, but it's out there now and no one is getting sued over it. (because that would require going to court and all those pesky oaths)
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • disgruntledgoatdisgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    iainf72 wrote:
    paul64 wrote:

    I'm interested in the tone of some of the posts and not questioning Monty per se. I know forums where the owner/mods would pull posts like these saying they're not prepared to host material which could be libellous, say the AUP is being violated and sometimes ban the poster for a while. Hence surprise at posts like this, are these okay on the forum?

    I'd be amazed if there were any forums which would pull comments like these now. All of this has been widely reported in the mainstream press, appeared on 60 Minutes etc. Some people may choose not to accept it as truth despite everything, but it's out there now and no one is getting sued over it. (because that would require going to court and all those pesky oaths)

    I would argue that when Kevin LIvingstone, Tyler Hamilton, Floyd Landis, Roberto Heras, Jonathan Vaughters, Frankie Andreu, Chechu Rubeira etc etc have all been busted, admitted it or made extremely thinly veiled references to admitting it then arguing that his climbing domestiques were juiced becomes somewhat less likely to incur the wrath of lawyers.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • cycling5280cycling5280 Posts: 279
    iainf72 wrote:
    paul64 wrote:

    I'm interested in the tone of some of the posts and not questioning Monty per se. I know forums where the owner/mods would pull posts like these saying they're not prepared to host material which could be libellous, say the AUP is being violated and sometimes ban the poster for a while. Hence surprise at posts like this, are these okay on the forum?

    I'd be amazed if there were any forums which would pull comments like these now. All of this has been widely reported in the mainstream press, appeared on 60 Minutes etc. Some people may choose not to accept it as truth despite everything, but it's out there now and no one is getting sued over it. (because that would require going to court and all those pesky oaths)

    No mainstream media is willing to actually call out Lance Armstrong and say he doped. It's all worded and twisted as speculation based on interviews. No one knows the truth but Lance. Maybe he did and maybe he didn't.
  • cycling5280cycling5280 Posts: 279
    iainf72 wrote:
    paul64 wrote:

    I'm interested in the tone of some of the posts and not questioning Monty per se. I know forums where the owner/mods would pull posts like these saying they're not prepared to host material which could be libellous, say the AUP is being violated and sometimes ban the poster for a while. Hence surprise at posts like this, are these okay on the forum?

    I'd be amazed if there were any forums which would pull comments like these now. All of this has been widely reported in the mainstream press, appeared on 60 Minutes etc. Some people may choose not to accept it as truth despite everything, but it's out there now and no one is getting sued over it. (because that would require going to court and all those pesky oaths)

    I would argue that when Kevin LIvingstone, Tyler Hamilton, Floyd Landis, Roberto Heras, Jonathan Vaughters, Frankie Andreu, Chechu Rubeira etc etc have all been busted, admitted it or made extremely thinly veiled references to admitting it then arguing that his climbing domestiques were juiced becomes somewhat less likely to incur the wrath of lawyers.

    Might as well add Jan Ulrich, Ludo Dierckxsens, Dario Frigo, Johan Museeuw and Danilo Hondo to the list to connect Armstrong to doping. That's how much of a stretch you're taking with naming Heras who was with Liberty Seguros when he got busted, Hamilton with Phonak and Landis with Phonak. I don't believe anything Landis says. Who parades around the U.S. preaching his innocence by holding talks at bike shops and taking donations for his defense...AND WRITES A BOOK!!! I haven't ehard of any admission of guilt or any connection between doping and Rubeira...please back up your claim and provide me any press findings or interviews please. I'd like to know otherwise if he's doping as you claim.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 10,033
    I can't work out whether cycling5280 is
    a) Very new to the sport
    b) A hopelessly naive LA fanboi
    c) A troll
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • disgruntledgoatdisgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Sorry, I wholeheartedly retract that statement about Rubiera. I meant Manuel Beltran.

    As to the rest, Heras only started cheating when he went to Liberty did he? Hamilton, Landis, Vaughters, Andreu, Livingstone and every other American who was called perjured themselves to a grand jury did they?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 10,033
    PS - To save everyone else the time and bother, please just read these threads:
    viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12703004
    viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12752632&p=16714936
    viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12778314&p=16956233
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • cycling5280cycling5280 Posts: 279
    Sorry, I wholeheartedly retract that statement about Rubiera. I meant Manuel Beltran.

    As to the rest, Heras only started cheating when he went to Liberty did he? Hamilton, Landis, Vaughters, Andreu, Livingstone and every other American who was called perjured themselves to a grand jury did they?

    Thanks on clarifying Rubiera. Yeah I think Beltran was a doper.

    Those Americans went through the grand jury process but nothing substantial or concrete enough was given to even make the Feds want to bring Armstrong in for a testimony. Armstrong is powerful but not that powerful and any Federal prosecutor would love to take Armstrong down. Barry Bonds was arguably a bigger sports figure in the U.S. and they took him down so I don't buy the 'Lance had people talk to the Feds...' argument. Like I said before, if Lance gets officially busted I'll be the first to call him out but I want facts. I don't need an admission of guilt by Lance.
  • cycling5280cycling5280 Posts: 279
    I can't work out whether cycling5280 is
    a) Very new to the sport
    b) A hopelessly naive LA fanboi
    c) A troll

    I have any idea. Why don't you stop being an a$$ and just keep the talk to the sport.

    Regards,

    LA fanboi troll
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 10,033
    Sorry, I wholeheartedly retract that statement about Rubiera. I meant Manuel Beltran.

    As to the rest, Heras only started cheating when he went to Liberty did he? Hamilton, Landis, Vaughters, Andreu, Livingstone and every other American who was called perjured themselves to a grand jury did they?

    Thanks on clarifying Rubiera. Yeah I think Beltran was a doper.

    Those Americans went through the grand jury process but nothing substantial or concrete enough was given to even make the Feds want to bring Armstrong in for a testimony. Armstrong is powerful but not that powerful and any Federal prosecutor would love to take Armstrong down. Barry Bonds was arguably a bigger sports figure in the U.S. and they took him down so I don't buy the 'Lance had people talk to the Feds...' argument. Like I said before, if Lance gets officially busted I'll be the first to call him out but I want facts. I don't need an admission of guilt by Lance.

    The grand jury was investigating embezzlement, misuse of public funds. He could have been doped off his head but if they didn't have a paper trail to US Postal cash they had nothing. Those on the investigation were apparently surprised and upset it was called off.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • andy_wrxandy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    Anyone who stubbornly still believes Lance is clean must also believe in Father Christmas and virgin births
  • cycling5280cycling5280 Posts: 279
    andy_wrx wrote:
    Anyone who stubbornly still believes Lance is clean must also believe in Father Christmas and virgin births

    ...that Wiggins is clean.
  • Monty DogMonty Dog Posts: 20,614
    face-slap.gif
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 10,033
    andy_wrx wrote:
    Anyone who stubbornly still believes Lance is clean must also believe in Father Christmas and virgin births

    ...that Wiggins is clean.

    Tedious.

    Wiggins rides for a team with one of (if not the) the strictest anti-doping policies in the sport. Never seen anyone that might possibly know suggest he was anything other than clean. I've never seen dubious blood values of his posted on the net, I've never heard other riders or team staff tell about how he doped, and crucially, he's not beating the living hell out of riders with a haemocrit of 60%. Oh, and he's never had any positive tests on older samples revealed either.

    Sure, Wiggins might be doping. No-one can prove he isn't. But there's no evidence he is.

    Lance though, there's buckets of evidence. There isn't any comparison, to suggest there is is either moronic or disingenuous.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • cycling5280cycling5280 Posts: 279
    andy_wrx wrote:
    Anyone who stubbornly still believes Lance is clean must also believe in Father Christmas and virgin births

    ...that Wiggins is clean.

    Tedious.

    Wiggins rides for a team with one of (if not the) the strictest anti-doping policies in the sport. Never seen anyone that might possibly know suggest he was anything other than clean. I've never seen dubious blood values of his posted on the net, I've never heard other riders or team staff tell about how he doped, and crucially, he's not beating the living hell out of riders with a haemocrit of 60%. Oh, and he's never had any positive tests on older samples revealed either.

    Sure, Wiggins might be doping. No-one can prove he isn't. But there's no evidence he is.

    Lance though, there's buckets of evidence. There isn't any comparison, to suggest there is is either moronic or disingenuous.

    Relax folks...I think/hope Wiggins is clean. Just not a fan of this guilty by association even though half of Lance's former domestiques got busted post U.S. Postal and the others are straight up liars that the U.S. govt can even use as credible witnesses. If we go down this route 'guilty by association' for everyone that has never tested positive and has been banned then include Wiggins. I'm pretty sure he was part of the 2007 Cofidis team that pulled out of the Tour because of doping. Moreni was doping so Wiggins had to be doping right?? No.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 10,033
    andy_wrx wrote:
    Anyone who stubbornly still believes Lance is clean must also believe in Father Christmas and virgin births

    ...that Wiggins is clean.

    Tedious.

    Wiggins rides for a team with one of (if not the) the strictest anti-doping policies in the sport. Never seen anyone that might possibly know suggest he was anything other than clean. I've never seen dubious blood values of his posted on the net, I've never heard other riders or team staff tell about how he doped, and crucially, he's not beating the living hell out of riders with a haemocrit of 60%. Oh, and he's never had any positive tests on older samples revealed either.

    Sure, Wiggins might be doping. No-one can prove he isn't. But there's no evidence he is.

    Lance though, there's buckets of evidence. There isn't any comparison, to suggest there is is either moronic or disingenuous.

    Relax folks...I think/hope Wiggins is clean. Just not a fan of this guilty by association even though half of Lance's former domestiques got busted post U.S. Postal and the others are straight up liars that the U.S. govt can even use as credible witnesses. If we go down this route 'guilty by association' for everyone that has never tested positive and has been banned then include Wiggins. I'm pretty sure he was part of the 2007 Cofidis team that pulled out of the Tour because of doping. Moreni was doping so Wiggins had to be doping right?? No.

    Read the threads I posted links to earlier. It's all there. From the testimonies of former team-mates and employees to the positive tests on the 1999 samples, to the highly dubious blood values posted on his website then removed and the continued relationship with one of cycling's most notorious doping doctors. We've even got graphs.

    It's also worth noting that while doping may still be prevalent the advantages gained by it have dropped considerably. You'll need to understand why EPO doesn't create a level playing field if all riders are on it, how the test for EPO has affected doping regimes and how the blood passport has changed them again. This site: http://www.sportsscientists.com/ has some exceptionally good articles and comments on the topic. It explains why it is possible to win clean now, but it was pretty much impossible back then.

    This forum has done the topic to death, several times, and no matter which way it's sliced and diced there's pretty much universal agreement that there's no way it was all done clean. We've covered the arguments in pretty fine detail, and with a decent amount of attention to nuances and subtleties, so fatuous arguments involving comparisons to Wiggins aren't going to hold much water.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
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