Was I lied to..

asprilla

.. or did he just not know?

Was cycling over Twickenham bridge this morning , which is one lane for cars on the right, and on the left is a cycle track separated from the cars by a solid white and a area of hatching.

On a regular basis cars use this as a two lane road and mopeds / motorcyclists happily use the cycle track. This morning though there was a police car in the right hand lane when a number of cars, motor bikes and mopeds proceeded up the cycle track. I asked the officer why he didn't do anything; first he said that they weren't doing anything wrong and when I pointed out it was a solid white line that motor vehicles 'must not' cross he then said that they had tried to prosecute people but the CPS weren't interested.

I would have thought this was an FPN.

Thoughts? Twickenham Police station is less than 100m from the bridge so I might pop in there to waste their time on the way home.

SimonAH

You were lied to in the most casual and nonthinking manner - 'the CPS are not interested' is just the stock response to anything, frankly, that the police don't give a ah1t about because it's not in 'this month's target list'.

daviesee

They simply can't be ar$ed.

davis

Asprilla wrote:

I asked the officer why he didn't do anything; first he said that they weren't doing anything wrong and when I pointed out it was a solid white line that motor vehicles 'must not' cross he then said that they had tried to prosecute people but the CPS weren't interested.

Sounds like a "can't really be arsed to think about this or deal with it in anyway, so here's any old answer that makes it sound like NotMyFault".

asprilla

That was my thought.

Having done a bit more reading it appears that a mandatory cycle lane requires a Traffic Regulation Order in order to be enforceable and the TRO can include some quite detailed information about when traffic can and cannot enter (such as buses getting to bus stops). Next question is how do I get to see the TRO for that road?

walkingbootweather

The TRO would now be managed by the Local Authority. Some Authorities even display these on their website, but more likely they will have an internal computer system and / or paper maps. Speak to the Highway team, if you make an appointment they may be happy to show you there records. If they aren't it is often a sign that they know their records aren't in good order. In this case you can probably demand access for free under Environmental Information Regulation request.

rick_chasey

This is crazy.

Surely the point of rules and laws for society is so that they're obeyed, right?

How can people obey them if know-one knows what the sodding rule is?

asprilla

Right, have emailed Richmond Council asking their Highways team to clarify the status of this particular cycle track specifically with reference to the TRO.

I have a bee in my bonnet.

walkingbootweather

Good luck.

If you have a spare half hour you might want to peruse this precedent. It will probably make you smile, or your blood boil.

Tricycleboy

Good luck with this. Hopefully Richmond Council will be obliging- my dealings with them (non-traffic related tbh) have always been efficient and helpful- whcih is good as the council tax is bloody extortionate specially when compared with Wandsworth's up the road- but to be fair they can't even organise their rubbish collections properly.

Let us know what happens. Did you get the lazy rozza's number by any chance?

il_principe

Pffft, the police don't give a cr@p. I once watched a car jump the lights in front of two PSCO's (both fat and on scooters, they looked ridiculous). Anyway, 1 min later, me, the PSCO's and the RLJ'er are all in a row stuck in traffic. I filtered alongside the plastics and asked them why they didn't pull the guy for jumping the red - he didn't able gamble, it'd been red for a good 10 seconds. "We can't" they said "we don't have the authority for traffic offences." WTF is the point of bumbling around on liveried scooters then.

Honestly, PSCO's make my blood boil. What a waste of money, and they have no power to enforce anything it seems.

Origamist

It depends on the TRO that is in place with the particular mandatory cycle lane (i.e time-limited, parking etc), but generally cars should not be using them.

Enforcement is a totally different matter. As far as I'm aware, it's pretty much non-existent. The Boroughs don't bother much with parking/stopping infringements, the Met/CofLP very rarely issue tickets for mandatory cycle lane/ASL encroachment - either through ignorance or a tacit understanding that they will not pursue this offence (they'll just "have words"). I'm not sure of the CPS's position, but I'd be very surprised if many motorists are being pulled up on this.

Julian Huppert MP has been trying to tighten up the enforcement of mandatory cycle lanes via civil enforcement - but I'm not holding my breath as councils are unlikely to have this high on their list of offences.

Edit: I should add that just momentarily encroaching into the cycle lane is far less likely to get punished than using it for a prolonged period of time. Hence, why most of the road users who do get fined are motorcyclists.

Origamist

This is the lane, Asprilla?

asprilla

That's the one. That picture is pretty representative.

veronese68

Aah, the railway bridge. I was confused because Twickenham Bridge is on the A316 over the Thames. I thought that was still dual carriageway.
Would I be right in saying the motorcycle in that picture is not breaking the law as he's only crossed a broken line, but the cars are? Presumably there aren't any signs like there would be with a bus lane.

asprilla

It's the only bridge in Twickenham I know so I called it Twickenham Bridge

It's signposted and there are road markings before the lane starts telling traffic to move right.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=twicken ... 2,,0,14.48

Headhuunter

The police are more interested in disproportionately targetting cyclists jumping reds than bothering motoriosts who drive or ride in cycle only lanes and I'll say it again...

Headhuunter

Origamist wrote:

It depends on the TRO that is in place with the particular mandatory cycle lane (i.e time-limited, parking etc), but generally cars should not be using them.

Enforcement is a totally different matter. As far as I'm aware, it's pretty much non-existent. The Boroughs don't bother much with parking/stopping infringements, the Met/CofLP very rarely issue tickets for mandatory cycle lane/ASL encroachment - either through ignorance or a tacit understanding that they will not pursue this offence (they'll just "have words"). I'm not sure of the CPS's position, but I'd be very surprised if many motorists are being pulled up on this.

Julian Huppert MP has been trying to tighten up the enforcement of mandatory cycle lanes via civil enforcement - but I'm not holding my breath as councils are unlikely to have this high on their list of offences.

Edit: I should add that just momentarily encroaching into the cycle lane is far less likely to get punished than using it for a prolonged period of time. Hence, why most of the road users who do get fined are motorcyclists.

There's a mandatory cycle lane round the corner from me (Ashby Rd, SE4) and it's always filled with parked cars... It started slowly with 1 or 2 and now everyone blatantly ignores it... People have realised that no one ever enforces it so they just use it as parking...

rjsterry

Headhuunter wrote:

Origamist wrote:

It depends on the TRO that is in place with the particular mandatory cycle lane (i.e time-limited, parking etc), but generally cars should not be using them.

Enforcement is a totally different matter. As far as I'm aware, it's pretty much non-existent. The Boroughs don't bother much with parking/stopping infringements, the Met/CofLP very rarely issue tickets for mandatory cycle lane/ASL encroachment - either through ignorance or a tacit understanding that they will not pursue this offence (they'll just "have words"). I'm not sure of the CPS's position, but I'd be very surprised if many motorists are being pulled up on this.

Julian Huppert MP has been trying to tighten up the enforcement of mandatory cycle lanes via civil enforcement - but I'm not holding my breath as councils are unlikely to have this high on their list of offences.

Edit: I should add that just momentarily encroaching into the cycle lane is far less likely to get punished than using it for a prolonged period of time. Hence, why most of the road users who do get fined are motorcyclists.

There's a mandatory cycle lane round the corner from me (Ashby Rd, SE4) and it's always filled with parked cars... It started slowly with 1 or 2 and now everyone blatantly ignores it... People have realised that no one ever enforces it so they just use it as parking...

A little note, left beneath their detached wing mirror ought to spread the message* Or some fake parking fine notices might out the wind up 'em.

*for the hard of thinking, I am not advocating vandalism; merely expressing my frustration at the partial way in which our roads are policed.

jonginge

Parking on the NKR really does my nut

asprilla

Headhuunter wrote:

Origamist wrote:

It depends on the TRO that is in place with the particular mandatory cycle lane (i.e time-limited, parking etc), but generally cars should not be using them.

Enforcement is a totally different matter. As far as I'm aware, it's pretty much non-existent. The Boroughs don't bother much with parking/stopping infringements, the Met/CofLP very rarely issue tickets for mandatory cycle lane/ASL encroachment - either through ignorance or a tacit understanding that they will not pursue this offence (they'll just "have words"). I'm not sure of the CPS's position, but I'd be very surprised if many motorists are being pulled up on this.

Julian Huppert MP has been trying to tighten up the enforcement of mandatory cycle lanes via civil enforcement - but I'm not holding my breath as councils are unlikely to have this high on their list of offences.

Edit: I should add that just momentarily encroaching into the cycle lane is far less likely to get punished than using it for a prolonged period of time. Hence, why most of the road users who do get fined are motorcyclists.

There's a mandatory cycle lane round the corner from me (Ashby Rd, SE4) and it's always filled with parked cars... It started slowly with 1 or 2 and now everyone blatantly ignores it... People have realised that no one ever enforces it so they just use it as parking...

Had the same issue on the A308 from Hampton Court to Hampton Wick. I just kept ringing the parking office every week until they started enforcing it again.

rjsterry

Who'd have thought parking wardens would be conspicuous by their absence.

veronese68

Asprilla wrote:

It's the only bridge in Twickenham I know so I called it Twickenham Bridge

It's signposted and there are road markings before the lane starts telling traffic to move right.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=twicken ... 2,,0,14.48

Yes, I know what you mean. Twickenham Bridge is nearer to Richmond, but they've already got one. Mind you, Richmond must be posh enough to have two.
I'd say that sign with no times on it quite clearly indicates that cars should get the fook out of the bike lane.

jonginge

Veronese68 wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

It's the only bridge in Twickenham I know so I called it Twickenham Bridge

It's signposted and there are road markings before the lane starts telling traffic to move right.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=twicken ... 2,,0,14.48

Yes, I know what you mean. Twickenham Bridge is nearer to Richmond, but they've already got one. Mind you, Richmond must be posh enough to have two.
I'd say that sign with no times on it quite clearly indicates that cars should get the fook out of the bike lane.

That confused me a lot when I first moved to the area.

The naming of the bridges along chelsea embankment has also always struck me as odd.

benno68

It sounds like BS from the police. I'm sure they could issue a fixed penalty, if the driver accepted it the case would be finished without referral to the CPS wouldn't it?

Maybe the copper wanted to finish early to go to protest about his wages/pension scheme.

mr_ribble

Asprilla wrote:

It's the only bridge in Twickenham I know so I called it Twickenham Bridge

On that popular gameshow hosted by Alexander Armstrong called Pointless, I'm pretty sure Twickenham Bridge was a pointless answer to the question "Name a road bridge that crosses the River Thames"

Naturally, the further east you go the bridges got more popular. 70% of ppl would say Tower or London bridge or the like. So Twickenham bridge is indeed unknown and possibly unloved.

mr_ribble

JonGinge wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

It's the only bridge in Twickenham I know so I called it Twickenham Bridge

It's signposted and there are road markings before the lane starts telling traffic to move right.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=twicken ... 2,,0,14.48

Yes, I know what you mean. Twickenham Bridge is nearer to Richmond, but they've already got one. Mind you, Richmond must be posh enough to have two.
I'd say that sign with no times on it quite clearly indicates that cars should get the fook out of the bike lane.

That confused me a lot when I first moved to the area.

The naming of the bridges along chelsea embankment has also always struck me as odd.

I wouldn't worry because Cabbies also have the same issue. So they remember it thus.

Going from East to West (ie hometime ) its CAB ...Chelsea then Albert then Battersea

Just think Cabbie and CAB and you never get it wrong.

Also OT.. but anyone knows Fulham Palace Road knows its long and got lots of roads coming off it to the West. Starting at the south (Putney Bridge area), the road names go "ROUGHLY" in Alphabetical order. So I used to live on Bishops Park Rd, so thats at the south end. I had a mate who used to live on Wimslow Rd, so thats right at the other end in Hammersmith. I find it fascinating.... !

SteppenHerring

rjsterry wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Origamist wrote:

It depends on the TRO that is in place with the particular mandatory cycle lane (i.e time-limited, parking etc), but generally cars should not be using them.

Enforcement is a totally different matter. As far as I'm aware, it's pretty much non-existent. The Boroughs don't bother much with parking/stopping infringements, the Met/CofLP very rarely issue tickets for mandatory cycle lane/ASL encroachment - either through ignorance or a tacit understanding that they will not pursue this offence (they'll just "have words"). I'm not sure of the CPS's position, but I'd be very surprised if many motorists are being pulled up on this.

Julian Huppert MP has been trying to tighten up the enforcement of mandatory cycle lanes via civil enforcement - but I'm not holding my breath as councils are unlikely to have this high on their list of offences.

Edit: I should add that just momentarily encroaching into the cycle lane is far less likely to get punished than using it for a prolonged period of time. Hence, why most of the road users who do get fined are motorcyclists.

There's a mandatory cycle lane round the corner from me (Ashby Rd, SE4) and it's always filled with parked cars... It started slowly with 1 or 2 and now everyone blatantly ignores it... People have realised that no one ever enforces it so they just use it as parking...

A little note, left beneath their detached wing mirror ought to spread the message* Or some fake parking fine notices might out the wind up 'em.

*for the hard of thinking, I am not advocating vandalism; merely expressing my frustration at the partial way in which our roads are policed.

I did have the idea of getting a 20/24in wheel with nobbly tyre, applying paint and then rolling it over cars parked in the cycle lane to make it look as though some intrepid MTBer had ridden over them. Technically this is vandalism - although you could use mud or something less harmful. But how wrong would it be really?

Jay dubbleU

Asprilla wrote:

.. or did he just not know?

Was cycling over Twickenham bridge this morning , which is one lane for cars on the right, and on the left is a cycle track separated from the cars by a solid white and a area of hatching.

On a regular basis cars use this as a two lane road and mopeds / motorcyclists happily use the cycle track. This morning though there was a police car in the right hand lane when a number of cars, motor bikes and mopeds proceeded up the cycle track. I asked the officer why he didn't do anything; first he said that they weren't doing anything wrong and when I pointed out it was a solid white line that motor vehicles 'must not' cross he then said that they had tried to prosecute people but the CPS weren't interested.

I would have thought this was an FPN.

Thoughts? Twickenham Police station is less than 100m from the bridge so I might pop in there to waste their time on the way home.

The answer is 'Yes you were'

Any road markings - double yellows, stop signs etc have to be accompanied by a TRO. Some are enforced by the police - speeding etc and some by the LAs traffic wardens - double yellows etc. Some like this one seem to fall into a black hole where neither want to enforce them

walkingbootweather

This looks like the appropriate TRO for London Road.

In the past all TRO's that a Council made were enforced by the Police and/or Traffic Wardens. In about 2008, the powers of enforcement relating to on and off-street parking restrictions have been transferred from the Police and Traffic Wardens to the Council's Civil Enforcement Officers. This change in the law has become commonly known as "Civil Parking Enforcement". All other non-parking TRO's such as speed limits, weight limits and vehicle movements are still enforced by the Police.

Initialised

What's needed are a couple of Camera Signs and cameras.

A few near misses reported as 'Driver failing to stop after a collision' or similar along there might help make the point to the police and council.

In the mean time flag it up on reporting sites like The Times and Fill That Hole.