Guerciotti

Tedbaker

Hi, I've been looking to buy a carbon frame, preferably italian, and have seen Guerciotti at Planet X for good prices, I'm interested in the Khaybar HT and Team Androni, I understand they are Deda frames that have been rebranded, but I do like the look of them. Has anyone had any experience of these, and would you recommend? If you wouldn't recommend, are there any other less well known, quality italian brands, that you would recommend?
Thanks,
Ted

Tedbaker

Bump

Monty Dog

Some of the Guerciotti frames are made by Deda whereas some others are unique to them, so it does depend on the model. Depends on whether your definition of 'Italian' means the name on the downtube on whether they are genuinely made in Italy? i've seen a couple around at races and they are nicely finished - a mate has their carbon CX frame which is a nice bike.

Tedbaker

Cheers for the reply monty dog

fleshtuxedo

Hi Ted, replying to your pm and on this thread, I have a Guerciotti Team Replica as you know. I'm very very happy with it. I bought partly due to an attachment to the brand, but leaving that aside, I love the way it rides - very stable on downhills and through fast corners. The teardrop integrated seat tube and post and the slightly flattened head tube should give it a bit of aero advantage over most similar frames. I think it looks fantastic too, but I'm biased. Quality of the finish is excellent.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it. Both frames you mention have an ISP so I take it you're 110% confident of your position and making it work on this frame's geometry. Once the seattube's cut, the mast has a theoretical 12mm of adjustment, but I wouldn't feel confident having it anywhere other than slammed down with the full insertion i.e. you need to cut it exactly right first time.

The team replica is made by Deda and stickered as "Made in Italy", I imagine that means just painted and finished there having been built in Taiwan, but nothing wrong with that.

As it happens I was at Planet X showroom last week and the Khaybars look damn fine too (the Androni liveried one especially), but I've never ridden one.

Happy choosing anyway.

Tedbaker

Cheers for that fleshtuxedo, really appreciate the info, ted

limoneboy

as far as i know Deda carbon frames are made & designed in italy i have a super scuro and it is excellent but i have found that it is too much of a all out race bike and am on the move to a more all round frame . would recommend
though the finish is great.

Tedbaker

cheers limoneboy

nicknick

I second fleshtuxedo's comments as I have the same frame but the Giro D'Italia edition. It is very stiff and responsive, proper race 'harshness' and geometry but still smooth. I also had a cheaper Guerciotti Vega frameset which I recently sold as it was a bit too big for me (i cocked up on the geometry) and this was very very nice too. I think the non iSP Khaybar is the original not so good Scuro? I would also like to know where the Deda Scuro RS is made. Anyway they do look cool (but I am biassed too!)

TheYorkshireMan

I bought a 'standard' Guerciotti Khaybar off Planet X a couple of months ago, so most of the following relates to my frame rather than the Khaybar HT / Team Androni models you mention, but it might be useful to someone.

First point to note is that the name 'Khaybar' has been used for a number of different frames. Most of those on the Planet X site are a few years old, dating from about 2007 to 2010. As far as I have been able to make out these were hand made in Italy using top-of-the-range Dedacciai Z108 wrapped tubing, with glued and carbon cloth wrapped joints. They are not moulded monocoque frames.

I don't know if these older models are returns, seconds or simply unsold old stock. Some of the photos on the Planet X site do not show the actual frame you will be sent, and the one you get may have some detailed differences. For example mine does not have the 'flared' sections in the seat stays and rear forks shown in the photos. Apparently, the factory often changed the design according to what was available at the time.

Planet X also have some Khaybar HT frames. These are described as having "Tube-to-tube wrapped carbon joint construction", as the original Khaybar, and don't look like rebadged Scuro Rs frames at all. Just look at the detailed pictures of the seat /top tube joint, as compared to nicnick's bike which does look like a Scuro RS.



http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/FRG ... on_3k_fork

Here is comparable picture of a Scuro RS



Plant X also sell some team replica Guerciotti frames which do look like rebranded Dedacciai Scuros / Scuro RS frames and were most likely were made in the Far East.

So we have three very different frames. The Original Khaybar, the Khaybar HS (like the original hand made in Italy using tube to tube construction) and the rebadged Scuro RS team replicas.

The standard Khaybar frame I have (a large) has a 4 cm drop on the top tube, and nominally it would be a 56 cm frame measured the traditional way from the centre of the BB axle to the top of the top tube at the seat lug. (I.e. omitting any extension of the seat tube above the lug.) It measures 57 cm from the bottom of BB to the top of the seat tube extension – 1 cm less than the specification given on the Planet X site. It also has a 155 mm head tube, so it is an out and out racing frame, rather than a 'sportive' frame with a long head tube and radical sloping geometry in order to give a more upright ride.

The fork you get is just a generic Chinese carbon one, not the original Dedacciai one and is quite hefty.

The geometry given for the older Khaybar frames may not be accurate, possibly in part because the ones on sale cover a number of model years. I had some trouble setting up my position and Planet X admitted that the measurements were not reliable. I couldn't find any original specifications for the Khaybar and the measurements on the Planet X site seem to be lifted from the specification of the current Eclipse model. Of course, it could be that these are a 'standard' geometry used by Guerciotti for more than one frame. I would say that the best thing anyone interested in one of these frames could do is to ask Planet X to measure up the exact frame you will be sent, and perhaps send you some photos highlighting any differences from the photos shown on the site.

My frame also has an Italian BB, not a BSA one as was listed under the specification on the Planet X site. (I don't know why the descriptions haven't been updated, as I was told they would be.)

The frame I have is nicely finished but is not up to Colnago standard. For example, there were some very fine hairline cracks in the gloss coat radiating out from the hole drilled through the bottom bracket for the front changer cable. It looks as though the opposite side (the top) was not fully supported when it was drilled. All in all it looks like a hand-made object, which is what it is. This is not really a criticism and the fit and finish is better, for example, than for some of the composite helicopter parts that I saw in a previous job. Most monocoque frames look very nice, but the finish often relies on the liberal use of filler, usually betrayed by the use of black paint to hide it. Every square mm of the Guerciotti is finished in fine weave carbon cloth with very neat joints. The only exception is the generic Chinese fork where the joints are hidden under the usual black paint.

The seat tube has an alloy insert bonded in. For me this is a positive as I prefer an alloy post and this means I won't have any alloy - carbon seizure problems.

Best thing for me – coming from an alloy Cannondale – is the ride, which is amazingly smooth. The road bumps just seem to disappear using 25 mm Continental GP 4000S tyres. On my Cannondale I squeezed in 28 mm section tyres in an attempt to smooth the ride and it was still far harsher.

For the price the older Khaybar models look like a fair deal, being a third of the price of a Colnago made with similar material and using similar methods, but speak with Planet X to get the exact specification of the frame you will be sent.

As to the models that are rebadged Dedacciai Scuro RS frames, such as the team replicas, I guess the value depends on how much you feel the paint job is worth. However, the older models - both in standard and HS form, are much more 'authentic', being hand made in Italy using quality materials, doubtless at significant cost, which is probably why Guerciotti moved over to selling rebadged Deda frames! (That said, I think that some of the top of the range Guerciotti frames are still hand made in Italy).

P.s. I have to say that Planet X were very good sorting out the minor issues I had with my frame, even giving me a discount on another frame as compensation. (A Uncle John cross bike that I am still building).

nicknick

Some interesting info there YorkshireMan do you have a pic of your bike?

The team Androni frames etc are indeed Dedacciai Scuro RS repainted, they don't try and hide the fact as they have the original Scuro RS sticker below the front mech. Wiggle are selling the Dedacciai version currently for £1650ish.I think all the Guerciotti frames are full on race geo, mine is a size small with a 120mm head tube and 74.5 deg seat tube. If this is what you want then they are a lot of frame for the money.

Big Hairy Wallapers

Hi
Speak to Richard at FatBirds in Hunstanton.
He is an authorised dealer and very passionate about them.
He is a top bloke with a great team and will happily chat to you without trying to twist your arm to buy from him.
I can't recommend them highly enough.

Hope that helps.

TheYorkshireMan

Big Hairy Wallapers wrote:

Hi
Speak to Richard at FatBirds in Hunstanton. He is an authorised dealer and very passionate about them. He is a top bloke with a great team and will happily chat to you without trying to twist your arm to buy from him. I can't recommend them highly enough.

Hope that helps.

Interestingly enough, I see that FatBirds have one of the original hand laid up Khaybar frames in team colours up for sale as an 'ex display' model for £2,199. (I recall seeing an ad for the same frame but as a built up bike a while ago.) Although this one looks like it has the original matching forks, the price does legitimise the discounts that Planet X are offering on these frames.

http://www.fatbirds.co.uk/57507/product ... splay.aspx

TheYorkshireMan

nicknick wrote:

Some interesting info there YorkshireMan do you have a pic of your bike?

I'll try to sort some out later.

nicknick wrote:

The team Androni frames etc are indeed Dedacciai Scuro RS repainted, they don't try and hide the fact as they have the original Scuro RS sticker below the front mech. Wiggle are selling the Dedacciai version currently for £1650ish.

As you probably know, Ribble do the Scuro RS complete with forks for £874 - when they have them in stock that is. This means that the flash Italian paint job on the Planet X team replicas effectively costs about £300. Still a pretty good deal. However, I think that the listed original price for the Scuro RS based team replicas is silly, though no doubt accurate.

For me the Khaybar HT frames would be a better buy if someone wanted a frame with an integrated seat mast. However Planet X only have a few left.

nicknick

Yes the listed prices on PX are ridiculous, as are the listed prices for their own frames. There are some good deals unless you're a short arse like me! Yeah the Ribble version is a bargain if you're not a bike snob

TheYorkshireMan

nicknick wrote:

the Ribble version is a bargain if you're not a bike snob

Its not just snobbery though, aesthetics are important, and I would say the paint job on yours is well worth the extra cash over the Ribble, especially when one looks how much a quality multi-colour respray costs these days from someone like Argos.

Strafford

I'm very happy with my Guerciotti Androni team replica - it's a really well made frame and is a great balance of lightness, rigidity, comfort, precise handling and aero - sufficiently good at all of those aspects to be a fantastic all-round bike. Plus it stands out from the crowd and with Michele Scarponi having finished 4th in the 2010 Giro d'Italia on one, it has a bit of 'history' too - when parked outside a mid-ride cafe next to a load of Treks, Specializeds, Pinarellos, Cervelos, etc then it's always the one that people focus on and what to know about. Go for it!

rolf_f

limoneboy wrote:

as far as i know Deda carbon frames are made & designed in italy i have a super scuro and it is excellent but i have found that it is too much of a all out race bike and am on the move to a more all round frame . would recommend
though the finish is great.

My Ribble is a Deda frame and says 'Handcrafted in Italy' on it. It wasn't

nicknick

Very nice build Strafford! Mine has changed a bit since the last photo. Liking it more and more and can't wait to take it to the Alps in 2 weeks

Strafford

Thanks nicknick. Mine's changed a bit too - it now has a Campag Record drivetrain and I swapped the compact 50/34 chainset for a Campag Record Carbon 53/39 since I found I was regularly maintaining pretty high speeds and wanted the gearing optimised for cruising in the high 20s/30s mph. Have fun in the Alps! The black & gold looks even better in your real-life photo than it does on the Guerciotti website.

nicknick

Strafford wrote:

The black & gold looks even better in your real-life photo than it does on the Guerciotti website.

It does, looks better in the flesh than my photo, infact i wouldn't have bought it had I not seen it in the flesh first. The same can be said for all the frames though, even the older alu frames- ED03 etc?

The only issue I have with the frameset is the rubbish seat clamp. That old fashioned single bolt toothed clamp doesn't allow to fine angle adjustment. I've had to shim between with very thin rubber to get the desired angle!

Beatmaker

Those are both lovely builds. My wife got me a book called Italian Racing Bicycles for Fathers Day and it has a section on Guerciotti. The book is well worth buying but I can try scanning the Guerciotti pages if you guys want to read it.

giant_man

The prices these are being sold for tells me not one of them is made in Italy, nowt wrong with that though, a lot of good frames are built in the far east, these look very nice frames, esp that gold/black one, tasty. What is that model, nicknick?

What they're like to ride I wouldn't know, perhaps some of the owners can give us some ride reviews ...

nicknick

Beatmaker I also have that book, it's great! There's loads of prestigious Italian brands I'd never heard of in it.

Giant man it's the Giro D'Italia edition (Scuro RS same as Strafford's) that was designed for Scarponi-this was his-
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/pho ... lia/119988

As for the ride there's no doubt it's a proper race frame that is noticably stiffer and harsher over bumps than my older carbon Guerciotti, but still very smooth and responsive. The seat angle is steep but that suits me as i am a short 5ft7. The head angle is quite slack 71.5 degrees which makes for a very stable bike and cornering is effortless, the slightest lean and it's pulling you round the bend! It feels good on steady long rides but it feels at its best on the local chaingang while doing through and off efforts and 25mph+. Overall I am very pleased and have no plans to change it soon. It should be noted that I have never ridden anything like a Colnago, Cervelo etc so I wouldn't know how it compares to the more expensive stuff!

giant_man

Thanks nicknick, did you get yours from PX? or is there a better dealer? Sizing wise, I guess you went for the small and not the medium?

nicknick

giant man wrote:

Thanks nicknick, did you get yours from PX? or is there a better dealer? Sizing wise, I guess you went for the small and not the medium?

Yes it was PX, they are only an hours drive from me. Yep that's a small frame. It's a 520mm horizontal top tube but with the steep seat tube angle it's effectively a bit longer if compared to a frame with say a 'normal' 73.5 degree ST. I think the medium has a 538 horizontal TT.

giant_man

Thanks for the info nicknick, most helpful mate

nicknick

No problem!

By the way, don't go off PX's sizing charts, use Ribbles geometry chart for the Scuro RS cos that's from Dedacciai

Strafford

I'd agree with that comment on sizing. I'm 6ft with a 32inch inside leg (jeans size) and mine's a 'medium' i.e. 535mm top tube. The integrated seat tube comes very long (730mm); my top tip would be to get a professional to cut it for you. Cutting steerer tubes is fine as a home job, but integrated seat posts are more scary. Local bike shop (Triathlon Zone in St Albans) charged me £40 and guaranteed to replace the frame if it went wrong! - I took in a bike that I had ridden lots of miles on and was comfortable with, so that I could get the seat-mount to bottom bracket length measured and cut to the same length, with the seat-mount set within a couple of mm of the lowest position so that it can still be adjusted up by about 10mm should I want to (if I fine-tune the saddle/shoes/pedals/position etc). Better to cut too long rather than too short!

giant_man

Yeah talking to PX and they seem to measure from the crank to the top of saddle, which I have never gone by, always C-T ST and C-C TT.

Strafford

Giant Man - not sure how much of a giant you are, or whether you aren't acually huge but just need to be converted from huge global corporates to Italian bikes with a bit of character :-) Your location shows Essex so if St Albans is not too far out of the way then go and have a chat with Mike at Triathlon Zone (say Strafford says hi) who has Guerciotti frames, sizes/builds to order and has some 'passion' - his Italian wife was terribly excited by Androni's minor sponsors decals on the frame! Prices are identical to Planet X but you get the advantage of local/personal service in Hertfordshire.